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First F-35 fighter jet crash (Read 7225 times)
Bobby
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #195 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:23pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:51pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:56pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:07pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:02pm:
Now, what I saying about crew shortages for the submarines being a limiting factor?  Mmmm?   Roll Eyes

Crew shortage could leave Australia's new submarines high and dry – report 



And I was right:

The Submarine Institute of Australia president, Mark Sander, a former Oberon submariner, said it can be difficult to attract people to the job, despite the high salaries, because of the unique working conditions.

Submariners can be at sea for months on end without sunlight and they spend long periods away from family.



Errr, that was basically what I said, Bobby.  Please be original.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

That newspaper report supports everything I've said, Bobby - Crews are the major limiting factor on how long a submarine can spend at sea on Operations.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Why don't they pay them huge bucks?
They should pay them at least $200k per annum.
It's a dangerous job stuck inside a claustrophobic sub full of homos.


And blow out the Defence budget, Bobby?

Would be much easier if they moved their home base to Sydney, rather than Perth.  More people live in the East than the West.  Most people would be willing to serve there than in Perth.

They are already amongst the three highest paid groups in the ADF, Bobby.  They are paid the equivalent of the Army's "Special Forces" diggers and the Air Forces' pilots IIRC.


Why? If the ADF can finance gender reassignment surgeries for it's staff it can pay it's submariners a decent wicket.

How many submariners are required for 6 to 8 subs?




The cost of paying say $200K per annum for the submariners is cheap
compared to the $billions they are spending on the subs.
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Bobby
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #196 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:24pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:28pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:05pm:
Ok Tsk Tsk explain this one. How does an F117 end up in chinese hands ?


By having a stupid mission planner along with a stupid pilot who fly the same route - exactly - on each mission they undertake?

By being shot down by Serbian gunners who are awake to what the F-117 are doing each night, flying the same route at the same height?

By thinking that "stealh" made them invisible to all and sundry who weren't using their Mk.1 Eyeballs?

The Chinese bought the remains of the F-117 off the Serbs after the USAF bombed their embassy in Belgrade.   Funny how money talks, isn't it?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Unless it's a fake news video?


Who cares?  The F-117 is technology that is over 40 years old, Bobby.  It was the first iteration of Stealth.  It was when computer technology (used to design the aircraft) was relatively primitive.   It is why the aircraft is so faceted.  Nowadays, with more advanced computer technology aircraft can be designed much more rounded in form, with better reflectivity.  My PC has substantially more computing power than the computers they used to design the F-117.   Roll Eyes




But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #197 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:28pm
 
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


That's even older - they were using similar stuff on the SR-71 and U-2
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Bobby
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #198 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:32pm
 
Stig wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:28pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


That's even older - they were using similar stuff on the SR-71 and U-2



The recipe for the paint would be a closely guarded secret -
as it would be for the latest paint on the F35.

If the Russians knew they could use a radar frequency that would
reflect much better from the paint.
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #199 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:17pm
 
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


Ferrite paint is old hat, Bobby.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #200 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:26pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:51pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:56pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:07pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:02pm:
Now, what I saying about crew shortages for the submarines being a limiting factor?  Mmmm?   Roll Eyes

Crew shortage could leave Australia's new submarines high and dry – report 



And I was right:

The Submarine Institute of Australia president, Mark Sander, a former Oberon submariner, said it can be difficult to attract people to the job, despite the high salaries, because of the unique working conditions.

Submariners can be at sea for months on end without sunlight and they spend long periods away from family.



Errr, that was basically what I said, Bobby.  Please be original.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

That newspaper report supports everything I've said, Bobby - Crews are the major limiting factor on how long a submarine can spend at sea on Operations.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Why don't they pay them huge bucks?
They should pay them at least $200k per annum.
It's a dangerous job stuck inside a claustrophobic sub full of homos.


And blow out the Defence budget, Bobby?

Would be much easier if they moved their home base to Sydney, rather than Perth.  More people live in the East than the West.  Most people would be willing to serve there than in Perth.

They are already amongst the three highest paid groups in the ADF, Bobby.  They are paid the equivalent of the Army's "Special Forces" diggers and the Air Forces' pilots IIRC.


Why? If the ADF can finance gender reassignment surgeries for it's staff it can pay it's submariners a decent wicket.


They are paid a "decent wicket", Gnads.  It's just the mining companies can pay them more and offer better conditions.   Both factors you and Bobby are rather too easily dismissing IMO.

Quote:
How many submariners are required for 6 to 8 subs?


Each shortfin Barracuda is suggested to have 60 crew onboard.   The COLLINS class has 58 crew.  So we are seeing an increase of 2 crew per boat.


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Bobby
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #201 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:32pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


Ferrite paint is old hat, Bobby.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



No it's not  - they add other elements to the ferrite
such as manganese and cobalt
but the technology is just the same.
Different recipes absorb different frequencies.
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #202 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:03pm
 
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:32pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


Ferrite paint is old hat, Bobby.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



No it's not  - they add other elements to the ferrite
such as manganese and cobalt
but the technology is just the same.
Different recipes absorb different frequencies.


And one which is 40 years old, Bobby?  How useful would it be today?  Mmmm?

The Chinese have moved long past the use of pastes and paints for stealth, just as the US has.   Shaping and materials are far more important.  Roll Eyes
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Bobby
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #203 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:15pm
 
Brian - cop this:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russias-new-radar-just-make-ameri...


July 12, 2016 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: RussiaF-22F-35RadarMilitaryRussian

MilitarydefenseTechnology
Did Russia's New Radar Just Make America's Lethal Stealth Fighters Obsolete?

Nope--and we explain why.
by David Axe

Russia is the latest country to claim that it has developed a new radar system that can detect stealth warplanes. But the Sunflower low-frequency over-the-horizon radar likely suffers all the same drawbacks that have plagued previous generations of similar sensors.

Namely, Sunflower might be able to detect a low-observable airplane. But it probably can’t do so with great fidelity — nor generate a useful targeting track for a missile to follow. Despite Russia’s claim, stealth aircraft are no less difficult to find, target and destroy now than they were before the Sunflower’s introduction.

Russian media touted the Sunflower radar in a series of articles in early July 2016. “Russia’s powerful over-the-horizon … Sunflower radar is capable of detecting and tracking the stealth fifth-generation plane or any other fighter jet that was designed to avoid detection,” state-owned website Sputnik News reported on July 2, citing an earlier article in Svobodnaya Pressa, an independent Russian tabloid.

Sunflower and similar radars “see stealth fighter jets as clearly as World War II-era aircraft,” Svobodnaya Pressa claimed.

Technically speaking, that’s almost certainly true. Fighter-size stealth aircraft are optimized to avoid detection by radars in higher-frequency bands such as the C, X, Ku and part of the S band.


Low-frequency radars with larger wavelengths aren’t really affected by the stealth features that tend to defeat higher-frequency sensors. There’s a resonant effect with low-frequency radars that can generate a significant signal return despite an aircraft’s low-observable shaping and radar-absorbing coating.

But the same qualities that allow a low-frequency radar to detect a stealth fighter also prevent it from detecting the same aircraft with great precision. Mike Pietrucha, a former U.S. Air Force an electronic warfare officer, told editor Dave Majumdar from The National Interest that early low-frequency radars could pinpoint a target’s location to within only 10,000 feet or so — not nearly accurately enough to guide a missile.

For that reason, low-frequency radars such as Sunflower are useful only as early-warning systems. All they can do is alert air-defenders to the likely presence of low-observable aircraft in a general area.

To be fair, that’s not an insignificant contribution to a counter-air campaign. But it’s also not new. The United States, Russia, China and Iran — among other countries — have long deployed low-frequency radars for early-warning purposes.

Stealth fighters have always been visible to these sensors and always will be. Sunflower’s supposed counter-stealth prowess speaks more to the strict physical limitations of low-observable fighter-design and less to a stealth-defeating breakthrough on Russia’s part.

What’s perhaps is most impressive about Sunflower isn’t its ability to detect stealth fighters, but its comparative compactness. Many low-frequency radars installations are huge and power-intensive — and big, fat targets during a shooting war.

Sunflower, by contrast, is small and portable, according to media reports. “The system could be put online in 10 days and needs a team of just three people to stay operational,” Sputnik explained. “It does not need much power, it is easy to operate and it does not have much equipment.”

Sunflower clearly trades performance for portability. Where larger low-frequency radars can detect targets thousands of miles away, the new Russian system reportedly has a range of just 300 miles or so.

But there are clear tactical advantages in being able to quickly set up large numbers of smaller, low-frequency radars. Russia could, on short notice, deploy batteries of Sunflowers on the periphery of conflict zones in order to begin getting a vague idea of where U.S. and allied stealth fighters are operating.

That’s hardly a sure-fire way of defeating stealth. But it’s not nothing.
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Sir lastnail
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #204 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:37pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:51pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:56pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:07pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 6:02pm:
Now, what I saying about crew shortages for the submarines being a limiting factor?  Mmmm?   Roll Eyes

Crew shortage could leave Australia's new submarines high and dry – report 



And I was right:

The Submarine Institute of Australia president, Mark Sander, a former Oberon submariner, said it can be difficult to attract people to the job, despite the high salaries, because of the unique working conditions.

Submariners can be at sea for months on end without sunlight and they spend long periods away from family.



Errr, that was basically what I said, Bobby.  Please be original.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

That newspaper report supports everything I've said, Bobby - Crews are the major limiting factor on how long a submarine can spend at sea on Operations.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Why don't they pay them huge bucks?
They should pay them at least $200k per annum.
It's a dangerous job stuck inside a claustrophobic sub full of homos.


And blow out the Defence budget, Bobby?

Would be much easier if they moved their home base to Sydney, rather than Perth.  More people live in the East than the West.  Most people would be willing to serve there than in Perth.

They are already amongst the three highest paid groups in the ADF, Bobby.  They are paid the equivalent of the Army's "Special Forces" diggers and the Air Forces' pilots IIRC.


Why? If the ADF can finance gender reassignment surgeries for it's staff it can pay it's submariners a decent wicket.

How many submariners are required for 6 to 8 subs?


or worse still, pay a truck load of money upfront for a toy plane they still can't use and no aircraft carrier to use them on. Only Tsk Tsk would say that was a good deal Sad
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Sir lastnail
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #205 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:46pm
 
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:32pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


Ferrite paint is old hat, Bobby.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



No it's not  - they add other elements to the ferrite
such as manganese and cobalt
but the technology is just the same.
Different recipes absorb different frequencies.


tsk tsk is going to publish the formula here because it is such an old idea and everyone knows about it Cheesy LOL
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"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Luke Muehlhauser
 
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Bobby
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #206 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:50pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:46pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:32pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


Ferrite paint is old hat, Bobby.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



No it's not  - they add other elements to the ferrite
such as manganese and cobalt
but the technology is just the same.
Different recipes absorb different frequencies.


tsk tsk is going to publish the formula here because it is such an old idea and everyone knows about it Cheesy LOL



It just shows my superior knowledge compared to you Brian.
You had never heard of lossy ferrite before I told you.
You only found out about it because of me.
You only exist because of people like me.


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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #207 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:15pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
or worse still, pay a truck load of money upfront for a toy plane they still can't use and no aircraft carrier to use them on. Only Tsk Tsk would say that was a good deal Sad


You do realise that the RAAF never has intended to purchase the F-35B or F-35C - the naval versions of the F-35?  It was always intended to purchase the F-35A.   Therefore it cannot be used from a carrier.

As for it being a "toy plane", well, I have no idea why you assume that...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #208 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:35pm
 
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:50pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:46pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:32pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Bobby wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
But Brian,
It's the properties of the lossy ferrite paint used that is
of most interest.
You're obviously not a technical person.


Ferrite paint is old hat, Bobby.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



No it's not  - they add other elements to the ferrite
such as manganese and cobalt
but the technology is just the same.
Different recipes absorb different frequencies.


tsk tsk is going to publish the formula here because it is such an old idea and everyone knows about it Cheesy LOL



It just shows my superior knowledge compared to you Brian.
You had never heard of lossy ferrite before I told you.
You only found out about it because of me.
You only exist because of people like me.


Wrong, Bobby.  I first heard about Ferrite paints when I read about their use by the RAF in testing stealth coatings on the Canberra Bomber which they tested on a Canberra B.6, WK161. over a decade ago.   I next heard about them when it was revealed that the F-22 fighter was having problems with them wearing off after flights in bad weather.

I'd recommend you read, Forster, D., Black Box Canberras: British Test and Trials Canberras 1951-1994, Hikoki Publications, Manchester, 2016.   Forster has considerable detail on the trials with VK161 in 1957-58 on pages 166-168.   Roll Eyes
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Sir lastnail
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #209 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 10:07pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:15pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
or worse still, pay a truck load of money upfront for a toy plane they still can't use and no aircraft carrier to use them on. Only Tsk Tsk would say that was a good deal Sad


You do realise that the RAAF never has intended to purchase the F-35B or F-35C - the naval versions of the F-35?  It was always intended to purchase the F-35A.   Therefore it cannot be used from a carrier.

As for it being a "toy plane", well, I have no idea why you assume that...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


The only one I ever saw was at a RAAF centenary show and it was made out of plastic. That's what we have got to show for all of the money doled out Cheesy LOL

As for the type of plane yes of course we didn't order the naval versions because we don't have an aircraft carrier but what is the point then of ordering a plane with limited range  in the first place ?
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