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First F-35 fighter jet crash (Read 27580 times)
Gnads
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #90 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:20pm
 
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.


Agreed. A 1960s vintage F-111 isn't going to do the job these days.

Despite a problematic development, the F-35 is coming good. Just like the F-111 did back in the late 60s



F111's never came into service in Australia until 1982.

RAAF No.2 Squadron was still flying Canberra Bombers until 1982.

We leased F 4e Phantoms whist waiting for the F111's.
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Gnads
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #91 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:25pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:14pm:
Oh dear what a dill ....

15 years we have been involved in the F35 program

we signed for 48 under LABOR & now 72 with the LNP ...

we got one or two testers last year & one or two 2018...

won't see a operational unit until after 2022.

So much for we what we need now ... putz. Roll Eyes


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should have just dropped into the corner shop and bought a new fighter-bomber off the shelf?  In reality, what happened was the US suggested we might like to become involved in the development and manufacture of a new aircraft and therefore we could buy it at a reduced price.  The Australian Government accepted and we placed an initial order for 48 and then later an increased order for up to 72 aircraft. These are not things you buy off the shelf, if you're a first world nation.  You try and cut the best deal possible with off-sets where we manufacture parts of the aircraft or other aircraft which the original manufacturers purchase back off us.

The F-35 is still the most advanced fighter-bomber jet aircraft in production.  A fact that you cannot get away from, no matter how much you whinge and whine.  Aircraft nowadays take time to develop and the F-35 is running roughly on schedule.  20 years from the time the first pen hit the paper is not bad going nowadays.   Nothing else matches the F-35 at the moment or for the foreseeable future.   Get over it and stop your whinging and whining.   Roll Eyes


Stop waffling Bwian ... all that shoots your "here & now & not the future" drivel ... out of the sky.

20 years? what rot.

20 years old & the state of the art?

That's what the critics said .... an old pig with lipstick.

As for running to schedule ... that's another crock of shyte ...

it's years behind.
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Bobby.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #92 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:41pm
 
Brian doesn't know.
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Stig
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #93 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:41pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:20pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.


Agreed. A 1960s vintage F-111 isn't going to do the job these days.

Despite a problematic development, the F-35 is coming good. Just like the F-111 did back in the late 60s



F111's never came into service in Australia until 1982.

RAAF No.2 Squadron was still flying Canberra Bombers until 1982.

We leased F 4e Phantoms whist waiting for the F111's. 


First flight of the F-111 was 1964, the RAAF got them in 1973. Like I said, 60s technology
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Bobby.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #94 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 7:46pm
 
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:41pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:20pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.


Agreed. A 1960s vintage F-111 isn't going to do the job these days.

Despite a problematic development, the F-35 is coming good. Just like the F-111 did back in the late 60s



F111's never came into service in Australia until 1982.

RAAF No.2 Squadron was still flying Canberra Bombers until 1982.

We leased F 4e Phantoms whist waiting for the F111's. 


First flight of the F-111 was 1964, the RAAF got them in 1973. Like I said, 60s technology




F111s -
They had many upgrades.
The ones that went into museums had to have all their high tech
electronics taken out of them & sent back to the USA.
It was too secret to leave lying around.
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #95 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:26pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:23pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:05pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:45pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:33pm:
*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Much like your pretense of all knowledge ey? DH.

BTW Noddy since when have our politicians been experts on defense.

Like all the experts on the Collins Class Sub fiasco?  Grin


*SIGH* such ignorance, such foolishness.   Leave defence to the experts.  Amateurs don't know their arses from their elbows.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The COLLINS class are still one of the largest, quietest, conventional submarines in service around the world.  For a first effort at Submarine building, they are not as bad as the media as portrayed them as.  The British BTW, the world's experts at design and submarine construction,  and welded a hull section on, upside down on their nuclear attack class of submarines,  the USA, had to scrap an entire boat on the stocks 'cause the welds were done incorrectly.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Their ongoing failings & constant upgrade requirements which saw them out of action for long periods make them on a par in the respective time frame as being bottomless money pits.

As for not knowing ones arse from ones elbow I'll take that as being advice from an expert in that dept.  Roll Eyes


The problem with the COLLINS class is that we don't have enough crews for them.  The RAN cannot keep the crews trained and onboard the boats for long enough.  Now the mining boom is well and truly over, that may change.  The RAN found they were training their crews to only have them piss off to the mines where they got four times the wage.

The COLLINS class have actually been an excellent boat, when in service.  They are one of the largest, quietest submarines in service today.   We did a good deal (note, not an excellent one, Kokums tried to do the dirty on us at one point) and we did an adequate job (not a great job) building them.  The RAN stuffed up in the contract they used to pay for the submarines which is why they ended up with inadequate control systems.   Those have now been replaced and updated.   

While they did not end up as quiet as originally envisaged, they were still far better than the ignorant media portrayed them to be.  The problem was the Labor Government decided to retrench a large number of middle-ranking naval officers, many of whom had been involved in the building of the COLLINS class.  Embittered they were willing to spill the beans to the media and the media (read Murdoch) was only too willing to publish anything embarrassing to Labor.   They are significantly quieter their predecessors (the OBERON class) and significantly quieter than comparable nuclear powered submarines.  They are simply not "twice as quiet" as the OBERON classes as originally specified.


How many fully working Collins subs are actually on patrol out in the deep sea?


If I told you that, Bobby, I'd have to kill you afterwards.   Smiley

In theory, we should have two on patrol, two in training and two in refit.   AIUI we actually have about 1.5 on patrol, 1.5 in training and 3 in refit (and please don't ask me what .5 of a submarine looks like.   Roll Eyes )
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #96 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:37pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm:
Many places experienced staff losses due to the mining boom & the higher wages ... not just the Navy.

And the "when in service" just confirms my point.

We go from crap decision to crap decision with our ADF hardware ...... the F35's are shaping up to be another.


The RAN has suffered significant crew losses in their submarine service.  It is simply easier to go FIFO to a remote mining site than to spend six months away from home, on some far off PA.

We have, in the past suffered, I am quite willing to admit from bad procurement decisions - decisions it should be noted which were primarily politically drive.  Nowadays, things have improved markedly.   The COLLINS class is a case in point.  None of the other tenders were wiling to allow the boats to be built in Australia to the RAN's specifications.  Kockums tried to do the dirty on us by making bad welds on the first boat of the class (which was partially assembled in Sweden) but when that was discovered they had their wrists slapped and the boat was rewelded, at their expense.   The COLLINS class is still one of the largest, longest ranged, best equipped and quietest submarines in the world.

The F-35 is an interesting case and one where the procurement decisions have been driven by Australia's need for technology transfer as against cheapness of procurement.   Not only can we, if necessary, repair and rebuild the aircraft downunder, we can build new ones if the worst ever came to the worse.

As usual, you have failed t answer my major point - there is simply no other alternative aircraft that is as advanced as the F-35 which is available.  The Russians are a good 20 years behind, the Chinese a good 15 years behind.  The British are a good 20 years behind, the French a good 30 years behind, the Swedes have basically given up on the idea of stealth it appears from the open source press at the moment.    The F-35 is the only aircraft available to us which ensures that we retain a technological edge over all other air forces in the region.


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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #97 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:39pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:13pm:
Rubbish -  the F-35 is not running roughly on schedule -
it's about 5 years behind schedule and countless $billions over budget.


Bobby, nowadays that is considered "roughly on schedule".   Political decisions and technical difficulties all play a part in modern defence procurement.  The technical difficulties have been overcome.  The political decisions have made it slip further behind.
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Brian Ross
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #98 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:53pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:20pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Stig wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 8:25am:
One Tornado was shot down by a Mig-29.

Most of the detractors of the F-35 do not or will not understand that the present moment there is nothing comparable to the F-35, either in the West or the East.   No Russian or Chinese aircraft is as stealthy or possesses the same facilities which make the F-35 their superior.


Agreed. A 1960s vintage F-111 isn't going to do the job these days.

Despite a problematic development, the F-35 is coming good. Just like the F-111 did back in the late 60s



F111's never came into service in Australia until 1982.

RAAF No.2 Squadron was still flying Canberra Bombers until 1982.

We leased F 4e Phantoms whist waiting for the F111's. 



The F-111 entered service with the RAAF in 1973 when the first aircraft were flown across the Pacific from the USA:

Quote:
While the first aircraft was officially handed over on 4 September 1968, structural issues delayed the entry into service of the F-111C.[1] Twenty-four USAF F-4 Phantom IIs were leased as an interim measure.[36] The Phantoms were delivered in September and October 1970 to No. 82 Wing at RAAF Base Amberley, Queensland. During its next three years in RAAF service, one F-4 was lost. By June 1973, the remaining 23 Phantoms were returned to the U.S.
[...]
The F-111C entered Australian service after the technical problems were resolved, and the first F-111C was accepted at Nellis Air Force Base on 15 March 1973.[60] On 31 March, the RAAF Washington Flying Unit was formed at McClellan Air Force Base in California with the mission of ferrying the first 12 F-111Cs to Australia.[61] This unit was commanded by Group Captain John Newham, who later served as Chief of the Air Staff between 1985 and 1988. The RAAF's first six F-111Cs arrived at Amberley on 1 July 1973, and three subsequent groups of six F-111s arrived on 27 July, 28 September and 4 December.

[source]

I have absolutely no idea where you got the year of 1982 from.   The F-111 was originally designed with early 1960s technology in it's avionics.  This was then progressive updated until a remanufacture programme was undertaken in the 1990s and the entire fleet was returned to zero hours and all their avionics were replaced with digital systems.

Quote:
The Canberra's distinguished RAAF career officially ended on 30 June 1982 when No 2 Squadron flew four aircraft over Brisbane and surrounding areas in a farewell fly-past.

[Source]

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Gnads
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #99 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:53pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:39pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:13pm:
Rubbish -  the F-35 is not running roughly on schedule -
it's about 5 years behind schedule and countless $billions over budget.


Bobby, nowadays that is considered "roughly on schedule".   Political decisions and technical difficulties all play a part in modern defence procurement.  The technical difficulties have been overcome.  The political decisions have made it slip further behind.


Grin I wouldn't want to be hanging by the balls waiting at that rate.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #100 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:55pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 4:14pm:
Oh dear what a dill ....

15 years we have been involved in the F35 program

we signed for 48 under LABOR & now 72 with the LNP ...

we got one or two testers last year & one or two 2018...

won't see a operational unit until after 2022.

So much for we what we need now ... putz. Roll Eyes


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should have just dropped into the corner shop and bought a new fighter-bomber off the shelf?  In reality, what happened was the US suggested we might like to become involved in the development and manufacture of a new aircraft and therefore we could buy it at a reduced price.  The Australian Government accepted and we placed an initial order for 48 and then later an increased order for up to 72 aircraft. These are not things you buy off the shelf, if you're a first world nation.  You try and cut the best deal possible with off-sets where we manufacture parts of the aircraft or other aircraft which the original manufacturers purchase back off us.

The F-35 is still the most advanced fighter-bomber jet aircraft in production.  A fact that you cannot get away from, no matter how much you whinge and whine.  Aircraft nowadays take time to develop and the F-35 is running roughly on schedule.  20 years from the time the first pen hit the paper is not bad going nowadays.   Nothing else matches the F-35 at the moment or for the foreseeable future.   Get over it and stop your whinging and whining.   Roll Eyes


Stop waffling Bwian ... all that shoots your "here & now & not the future" drivel ... out of the sky.

20 years? what rot.

20 years old & the state of the art?

That's what the critics said .... an old pig with lipstick.

As for running to schedule ... that's another crock of shyte ...

it's years behind.



Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  It is obvious that you know absolutely nothing about this topic.  Run along back to your bridge.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bobby.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #101 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 5:59pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:26pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm:
How many fully working Collins subs are actually on patrol out in the deep sea?


If I told you that, Bobby, I'd have to kill you afterwards.   Smiley

In theory, we should have two on patrol, two in training and two in refit.   AIUI we actually have about 1.5 on patrol, 1.5 in training and 3 in refit (and please don't ask me what .5 of a submarine looks like.   Roll Eyes )



Only 1.5 actually out there in the deep blue sea?

That's an embarrassment.
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Bobby.
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #102 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 6:00pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:53pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:39pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:13pm:
Rubbish -  the F-35 is not running roughly on schedule -
it's about 5 years behind schedule and countless $billions over budget.


Bobby, nowadays that is considered "roughly on schedule".   Political decisions and technical difficulties all play a part in modern defence procurement.  The technical difficulties have been overcome.  The political decisions have made it slip further behind.


Grin I wouldn't want to be hanging by the balls waiting at that rate.



Brian doesn't know.
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Baronvonrort
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #103 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 6:43pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:26pm:

If I told you that, Bobby, I'd have to kill you afterwards.   Smiley

In theory, we should have two on patrol, two in training and two in refit.   AIUI we actually have about 1.5 on patrol, 1.5 in training and 3 in refit (and please don't ask me what .5 of a submarine looks like.   Roll Eyes )



So what does .5 of a sub look like, what is .5 of a sub?
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Re: First F-35 fighter jet crash
Reply #104 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 9:34pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 5:59pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:26pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm:
How many fully working Collins subs are actually on patrol out in the deep sea?


If I told you that, Bobby, I'd have to kill you afterwards.   Smiley

In theory, we should have two on patrol, two in training and two in refit.   AIUI we actually have about 1.5 on patrol, 1.5 in training and 3 in refit (and please don't ask me what .5 of a submarine looks like.   Roll Eyes )


Only 1.5 actually out there in the deep blue sea?

That's an embarrassment.


Why?
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