Australian Politics Forum - The problem with Islam isn't Islam...

polite_gandalf

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #30 - Sep 27^th, 2018 at 7:29pm

Frank wrote on Sep 27^th, 2018 at 7:14pm:

The religious at least do not define themselves as not being like you - there is something positive there, in contrast to your negative-by-definition stance.

The religious generally don't lecture atheists about what particular strand of atheism they ought be adopting, nor condescendingly explain to them what their personal beliefs mean Wink

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #31 - Sep 27^th, 2018 at 8:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 27^th, 2018 at 7:14pm:

The religious at least do not define themselves as not being like you - there is something positive there, in contrast to your negative-by-definition stance.

The religious generally don't lecture atheists about what particular strand of atheism they ought be adopting, nor condescendingly explain to them what their personal beliefs mean Wink

True.

They may kill them but they do not necessarily lecture them.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam... Reply #32 - Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm: The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem. What about Muhammad?
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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 40531 Gender:	Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam... Reply #33 - Sep 28^th, 2018 at 9:57pm Mohammed is pre-schism of sunni/shia/whatever so has nuffin' to do wiv Islam for the next 1400 years - except the good bits. tsk, tsk.
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Auggie

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #34 - Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

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Frank

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #35 - Sep 28^th, 2018 at 11:15pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

Forrest Gump with aphasia.

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freediver

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #36 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

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Auggie

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #37 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

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freediver

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #38 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:57am

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Ah. So the only problem with Islam is Islam?

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Auggie

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #39 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:11pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Ah. So the only problem with Islam is Islam?

No, it's the belief that Muhammad is the best example of a human being.

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freediver

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #40 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:13pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:11pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Ah. So the only problem with Islam is Islam?

No, it's the belief that Muhammad is the best example of a human being.

And that's nothing to do with Islam?

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Auggie

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #41 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:14pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:11pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Ah. So the only problem with Islam is Islam?

No, it's the belief that Muhammad is the best example of a human being.

And that's nothing to do with Islam?

Correct.

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freediver

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #42 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:15pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:11pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Ah. So the only problem with Islam is Islam?

No, it's the belief that Muhammad is the best example of a human being.

And that's nothing to do with Islam?

Correct.

Can you cite some examples of Muslims saying that Muhammad wasn't so great after all?

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Auggie

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #43 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:16pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:15pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:11pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Ah. So the only problem with Islam is Islam?

No, it's the belief that Muhammad is the best example of a human being.

And that's nothing to do with Islam?

Correct.

Can you cite some examples of Muslims saying that Muhammad wasn't so great after all?

No, I can't.

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Yadda

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Re: The problem with Islam isn't Islam...
Reply #44 - Sep 29^th, 2018 at 12:22pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2018 at 7:57am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 10:13pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 25^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

The problem with Islam isn't Islam, it's SUNNI Islam that's the problem.

What about Muhammad?

Well, if you insist of the principal that Muhammad was the best example of a human being, as Sunni Islam does, then yes it's a problem.

Otherwise, if you're a Sufi and are just focusing on the esoteric characteristics of Muhammad, then it's not a problem.

OK, so now we have two problems with Islam: Sunnis and Muhammad.

What about followers of Muhammad? Are they also a problem?

The problem isn't Muhammad; it's the belief that he's the perfect example of a human being that's the problem.

Auggie,

Who is correct ?

Who is the correct guide, to every believer ?

It is you, or is it Allah ?

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah [i.e. Mohammed] a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."
Koran 33.021

i.e.
Allah is saying, in his inerrant Koran, that Mohammed is the example that every follower of ISLAM must seek to imitate,
if he wants to earn the favour of Allah.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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