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The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists (Read 1542 times)
Yadda
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #15 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:02pm:

[the 2nd amendment right, in the U.S.]

It's funny to watch Americans who still take this seriously as a "right", despite how ludicrous it has become.




FD,

If you think that a right to the means to defend your person or your property is ludicrous or irrational.....

Q.
Why do you have keyed locks on your front and back doors to your house ?
....of course this is wholly a presumption on my part.


Maybe you leave your doors unlocked,       whenever you are away from your home ?

But isn't locking the doors on your house,      a form of 'self defence' of your property ?

And what right, do you believe that you have,
to deny others entry into your home ?!!

/sarc off



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Richdude
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #16 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 3:30am
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:27pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:02pm:

[the 2nd amendment right, in the U.S.]

It's funny to watch Americans who still take this seriously as a "right", despite how ludicrous it has become.




FD,

If you think that a right to the means to defend your person or your property is ludicrous or irrational.....

Q.
Why do you have keyed locks on your front and back doors to your house ?
....of course this is wholly a presumption on my part.


Maybe you leave your doors unlocked,       whenever you are away from your home ?

But isn't locking the doors on your house,      a form of 'self defence' of your property ?

And what right, do you believe that you have,
to deny others entry into your home ?!!

/sarc off





Common sense!

How many unarmed citizens died compared to armed citizens died last century? I am talking Cambodia, China, USSR, Eastern Europe - a 1000 to one perhaps. Doesn't history teach you anything?

Around here, most people own guns - many guns. Why the need - you may ask? Insurance they say.

Do you insure your home Freediver? Or car?

Isn't it really about ones freedom. Choice? The freedom to choose without having others impose their will upon you. You are really advocating fascism - the imposition of your desire and insecurities upon others.

As long as my neighbors are responsible (and they are), I have no problem with them owning guns. By restricting the freedom of others you also restrict your own freedom.

or is this the future many wish to embrace. Love this pic.


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“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”   George Orwell
 
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freediver
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #17 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 6:51am
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:27pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:02pm:

[the 2nd amendment right, in the U.S.]

It's funny to watch Americans who still take this seriously as a "right", despite how ludicrous it has become.




FD,

If you think that a right to the means to defend your person or your property is ludicrous or irrational.....

Q.
Why do you have keyed locks on your front and back doors to your house ?
....of course this is wholly a presumption on my part.


Maybe you leave your doors unlocked,       whenever you are away from your home ?

But isn't locking the doors on your house,      a form of 'self defence' of your property ?

And what right, do you believe that you have,
to deny others entry into your home ?!!

/sarc off





I notice you refrain from mentioning guns. Why is that? Is this your way of agreeing with me?
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Richdude
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #18 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 10:26am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 6:51am:
Yadda wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:27pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:02pm:

[the 2nd amendment right, in the U.S.]

It's funny to watch Americans who still take this seriously as a "right", despite how ludicrous it has become.




FD,

If you think that a right to the means to defend your person or your property is ludicrous or irrational.....

Q.
Why do you have keyed locks on your front and back doors to your house ?
....of course this is wholly a presumption on my part.


Maybe you leave your doors unlocked,       whenever you are away from your home ?

But isn't locking the doors on your house,      a form of 'self defence' of your property ?

And what right, do you believe that you have,
to deny others entry into your home ?!!

/sarc off





I notice you refrain from mentioning guns. Why is that? Is this your way of agreeing with me?


Protect your family. property and self by any means necessary!

And please respond to my valid post - thank you!
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“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”   George Orwell
 
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Yadda
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #19 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 10:59am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:02pm:

[the 2nd amendment right, in the U.S.]

It's funny to watch Americans who still take this seriously as a "right", despite how ludicrous it has become.





Richdude wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 3:30am:

Isn't it really about ones freedom. Choice?

The freedom to choose without having others impose their will upon you.

[FD] You are really advocating fascism - the imposition of your desire and insecurities upon others.




FD, please note,      i am in agreement with Richdude.




Richdude,

On liberty, and the right of every free man, to enjoy the right of self defence, i agree with Locke's reasoning....

Quote:

"......he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life.

For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it;

for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom - i.e.  make me a slave."


     John Locke 1632-1704
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242692863/0#0




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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:16am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #20 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:51pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 10:59am:
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:02pm:

[the 2nd amendment right, in the U.S.]

It's funny to watch Americans who still take this seriously as a "right", despite how ludicrous it has become.





Richdude wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 3:30am:

Isn't it really about ones freedom. Choice?

The freedom to choose without having others impose their will upon you.

[FD] You are really advocating fascism - the imposition of your desire and insecurities upon others.




FD, please note,      i am in agreement with Richdude.




Richdude,

On liberty, and the right of every free man, to enjoy the right of self defence, i agree with Locke's reasoning....

Quote:

"......he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life.

For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it;

for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom - i.e.  make me a slave."


     John Locke 1632-1704
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242692863/0#0






  Absolute power comes from God alone - not from gov.

The way we use this power is our choice however knowing that we will lose this entitlement if abused.

Gods laws will always prevail - that is inescapable. Hillary, Brennan, Comey, Obama....... take note................. too late!
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longweekend58
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #21 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:53pm
 
What moron compares owning a gun to locking your front door??

dumbass
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From one poster: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nanosecond, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family their parents
 
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #22 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 1:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 6:20pm:
Quote:
But just the knowledge, that the central government had, that the citizenry were armed, may well be enough to discourage any despotic tendencies of a central government.


Not really. The government will always have bigger weapons, more of them, and be more organised in using them. Citizens shooting each other is usually the justification for a lurch towards despotism.


One thing most non-Americans, & those Americans that make similar statements, fail to consider.

America's Armed Forces is comprised of a 100% volunteer Armed Forces.....every day citizens, just like the rest of America, except they are highly trained in the use of big weaponry & fighting techniques.

They are the ones that would be using all those "bigger weapons" you mentioned, in a very organized way.

Now, there is one thing, another factor, you are probably  not taking into consideration.

Most Americans hold their Constitution very near & dear.

So, this would naturally be consistent with most of the Armed Services....probably even more so.

Why? you might ask....

Because one very important factor about Armed Services Personnel is that they all take a solemn oath when they become service men & women. They swear an oath with one thing in common above all else.......they swear to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States .... First & Foremost... preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, not the Country, nor it's flag, nor it's government, nor any of it's leaders.....they swear first & foremost to preserve, protect and defend the U.S. Constitution.



Quote:
Uniformed Services of the United States....Military..... "I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."




Every leader, every elected official at all levels of government, every member of the military, every law enforcement officer, & every judge across America swears an oath with this one thing in common regarding the Constitution of the United States of America.

All that firepower....Armed Services, Police, National Guard, etc......all that fire power with one purpose in mind....to  "preserve, protect and defend the U.S. Constitution" not the Country, nor it's flag, nor it's government, nor any of it's political leaders.

Contemplate on that for a moment...


Now, getting back to the Armed Services, & it's firepower. If pushed came to shove, & the 'government' decided it wanted to disarm ordinary Americans, it's law abiding Citizens.

What do think might happen?

Remember the Armed Services is comprised of 100% Volunteers ..... American Citizens ....... & probably 90%+ of them are Law Abiding Gun Owners themselves.

Take up these big weapons against their Fellow Law Abiding Gun Owners?......... their Fellow Citizens?.......their Fellow Americans?

Forget that any order that is against the Law......Against the Law of the Land......against the US Constitution, does not have to be obeyed, regardless who gives the order.

More so, they are duty bound to their OATH to disobey such an order! 

Now, IMHO most of the Armed Service will disobey such an order, if not virtually all, because they all know the Second Amendment, & what it means.....not to you, but to them.....& contrary to the belief of some misguided people, last time I looked the Second Amendment was still a very large part of the US Constitution, & these Service Men are duty bound to preserve, protect & defend the Constitution above all else......with their very lives if need be.

They are prepared to pay that ultimate price in defense of the US Constitution & their honor.

That said, one more thing many either aren't aware of, or flat out don't understand that the Bill of Rights.....the First 10 Amendments to the United States Constitution......the Bill of Rights does not limit the rights of people - It does the exact opposite. It defines limits on the government, whereby protecting the Rights of the People over any powers given to the Government, by the People in the United States Constitution.

The United States of America is not a Democracy, as even some Americans errantly say.

The United States is a Constitutional Republic.....Founded as such....a proper Republic, one based on a Constitution with a Bill of Rights protecting the Citizens Natural Rights,  not Rights Granted by any government, but Rights bestowed upon them by a higher power....a Supreme Being.....A Constitutional Republic, based partly on Basic Democratic Principals, one where the Minority is protected by law so they can never be subject to mob rule, one where the government is permitted to govern only through the consent of the governed, from which all power to govern emanates.

Government, in America, through the Constitution, is meant to merely serve the American People, & only as the American People themselves permit.


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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2018 at 1:26pm by Panther »  

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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longweekend58
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #23 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 6:28pm
 
Imagine if you took your hand off your penis and read some history.  Your understanding of America and its constitution comes from comic books and vain imagining.
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From one poster: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nanosecond, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family their parents
 
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #24 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 7:51pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 12:42pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 12:27pm:
It is out of date. They were fools for putting the right to bear arms into the constitution. And the intent of the document is at least in part to protect the interests of the government from the will of the people.


One of the big problems of a lot of constitutions is that they make it hard to change them. The american one is out of date rather obviously, but changing it is now impossible because if the dems propose it, the repubs will oppose it no matter what, and probably vice versa.



Yes it is antiquated, the purpose of the second amendment was to allow people to be armed in a militia, this apparently was needed in case they seen a need to overthrow the government ? Today attempting to do this would likely get you into a bit of trouble.

It is also amusing that the US made war in Afghanistan fighting militia style regional armies which they claimed to be illegitimate and not part of the countries armed forces.

They were using a structure very similar to what the USA used in the war for independence and is protected in their constitution. 

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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #25 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:56pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:53pm:
What moron compares owning a gun to locking your front door??

dumbass





The Constitution is as out dated and cumbersome to some people as the 10 commandments. If you have no Right of defense how do you have a Right to own property? Your life is more valuable then your stuff! The fourth Amendment of the Constitution once protected privacy and property rights from government. If Keys are abolished then no door is locked and everyone basically owns everything and nothing. I want to go on vacation and your car is nicer and newer than mine I will just take it. If you need to do to work and your car is gone just take the first available vehicle on your street. 

The Constitution shares one annoying thing with Traffic Signs and Lights, they are not open to reinterpretation. Red means stop, green means go and yellow means go very fast before you see red! Shall not establish a State religion or hinder the practice religion, shall not be infringed, be secure in your papers, person or.........  We still live in a Representative Republic not a Democracy. Democracy is mob rule, the majority can not commit a crime if the majority approves.


If you don't approve of my Right to protect myself I don't recognize your Right to own anything!
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #26 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:40pm
 
mortdooley wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:56pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:53pm:
What moron compares owning a gun to locking your front door??

dumbass





The Constitution is as out dated and cumbersome to some people as the 10 commandments. If you have no Right of defense how do you have a Right to own property? Your life is more valuable then your stuff! The fourth Amendment of the Constitution once protected privacy and property rights from government. If Keys are abolished then no door is locked and everyone basically owns everything and nothing. I want to go on vacation and your car is nicer and newer than mine I will just take it. If you need to do to work and your car is gone just take the first available vehicle on your street. 

The Constitution shares one annoying thing with Traffic Signs and Lights, they are not open to reinterpretation. Red means stop, green means go and yellow means go very fast before you see red! Shall not establish a State religion or hinder the practice religion, shall not be infringed, be secure in your papers, person or.........  We still live in a Representative Republic not a Democracy. Democracy is mob rule, the majority can not commit a crime if the majority approves.


If you don't approve of my Right to protect myself I don't recognize your Right to own anything!


When guns were banned in Australia all means of self defense was banned as well. Air rifles, BB guns, slingshots, bows including sprays such as mace and pepper. All because of the (alleged) actions of one man all Australians lost their right to defend themselves. How insane is that?

Australians have no way of protecting themselves and no property rights either. They have "equity title" to their homes but gov holds superior title as trustees. Alodial title does not exist - perhaps those old enough who purchased their homes when money was backed by gold and silver may have.

It truly is La La Land - such a shame.
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Yadda
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #27 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 8:42am
 
Richdude wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:40pm:

When guns were banned in Australia all means of self defense was banned as well.

Air rifles, BB guns, slingshots, bows including sprays such as mace and pepper.

All because of the (alleged) actions of one man all Australians lost their right to defend themselves.

How insane is that?



It truly is La La Land - such a shame.





That has been the effect, after nationwide laws, imposing firearm ownership restrictions upon all licenced, law-abiding citizens were introduced, in Australia.

It was claimed, by the laws proponents [e.g. politicians and police], that once introduced, these new restrictive firearm ownership laws would make all Australian citizens much safer.



The truth is that the post Port-Arthur firearm ownership laws in Australia, have imposed firearm ownership restrictions upon all licenced, law-abiding citizens in Australia.

But it could hardly be argued that these new firearm ownership laws have presented any impediment to violent criminals, to access illicit firearms in Australia.

e.g.
The possession of semi-automatic pistols [e.g. like Glock pistols] have always been heavily restricted in Australia.

And yet, these types of firearms [it can be seen, being frequently being reported on our evening TV news bulletins]      [these 'restricted' firearms being had, in their possession] are being widely used by members of violent criminal gangs within Australia's capital cities, in fighting their 'turf wars'.



And of course, there has been no obvious reduction in the possession of firearms, seen among police and various security agencies within Australia, where such personnel can be seen to be openly carrying firearms in public.

ARGUMENT;
Surely, if it were true, that the new restrictive firearm ownership laws, had made Australia and our communities much safer,
many of the police and various security agencies within Australia, would have no need for their officers to be carrying 'restricted' and 'highly dangerous' firearms, openly on their hips, everywhere they go ?


But is seems that the servants and agents of the political state,
are considered to be much better placed to be able to protect themselves with firearms,
than are any [criminal-conviction free] peaceful, law-abiding citizen of Australia ?

....in the opinion that is, of the apparatchik's which 'guide' and advise the Australian political state, circa 2018.



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« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2018 at 8:50am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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longweekend58
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #28 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:02am
 
mortdooley wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:56pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:53pm:
What moron compares owning a gun to locking your front door??

dumbass





The Constitution is as out dated and cumbersome to some people as the 10 commandments. If you have no Right of defense how do you have a Right to own property? Your life is more valuable then your stuff! The fourth Amendment of the Constitution once protected privacy and property rights from government. If Keys are abolished then no door is locked and everyone basically owns everything and nothing. I want to go on vacation and your car is nicer and newer than mine I will just take it. If you need to do to work and your car is gone just take the first available vehicle on your street. 

The Constitution shares one annoying thing with Traffic Signs and Lights, they are not open to reinterpretation. Red means stop, green means go and yellow means go very fast before you see red! Shall not establish a State religion or hinder the practice religion, shall not be infringed, be secure in your papers, person or.........  We still live in a Representative Republic not a Democracy. Democracy is mob rule, the majority can not commit a crime if the majority approves.


If you don't approve of my Right to protect myself I don't recognize your Right to own anything!


you equate 'self-defence' with guns.  That is the error in your argument.  There is more to defence than weapons.
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From one poster: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nanosecond, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family their parents
 
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Yadda
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Re: The rise of the American anti-Constitutionalists
Reply #29 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 4:56pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:02am:
mortdooley wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:56pm:

The Constitution is as out dated and cumbersome to some people as the 10 commandments. If you have no Right of defense how do you have a Right to own property? Your life is more valuable then your stuff! The fourth Amendment of the Constitution once protected privacy and property rights from government. If Keys are abolished then no door is locked and everyone basically owns everything and nothing. I want to go on vacation and your car is nicer and newer than mine I will just take it. If you need to do to work and your car is gone just take the first available vehicle on your street. 

The Constitution shares one annoying thing with Traffic Signs and Lights, they are not open to reinterpretation. Red means stop, green means go and yellow means go very fast before you see red! Shall not establish a State religion or hinder the practice religion, shall not be infringed, be secure in your papers, person or.........  We still live in a Representative Republic not a Democracy. Democracy is mob rule, the majority can not commit a crime if the majority approves.


If you don't approve of my Right to protect myself I don't recognize your Right to own anything!





you equate 'self-defence' with guns.  That is the error in your argument. 

There is more to defence than weapons.







LOL !!!




But, but, but....LW !!!!!!!


......when i made that very argument,     you called me a moron AND a dumbass.



longweekend58 wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:53pm:

What moron compares owning a gun to locking your front door??

dumbass





Not having a good week are you,     LW.

Been off your medication ?



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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