This was in yesterday's Australian. Unfortunately the online version is paywalled. The ANU is dumping a course that was funded by the Ramsay Centre for western civilisation. This was justified by saying that although they had no criticism of the course's academic or technical merit, the view of the Ramsay Centre that it is possible for one culture to be better than another is not something they could tolerate.

As per usual not all the story has been told, and this has been around for months.  Congrats to the Oz on the scoop.

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 1:51pm:


Well the fact that the Ramsay centre made unreasonable and unprecedented demands as to control of curriculum, staffing etc.

freediver wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 12:07pm:


The course was dumped in the beginning of June - so I'm not sure what this latest story is. A quick search reveals no new developments in this story since about mid June.

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 2:02pm:


It is just about negotiating how the course is running.  So we have Ramsay centre who wants to fund a course inside ANU.  However it wants "to set up a management committee with equal numbers from the Ramsay Centre and the ANU, and to conduct “health checks” by sitting in on classes to assess the lecturers and material taught."

So effecitvely, this means that the academic autonomy is at risk.  Other centres, like Indigenous sutdies, Asian cultures does not have these kind of external influence at the university level. 

Further more, one of the board members of Ramsay Centre, Tony Abbott have stated that it should not only be a course about Western Civilization, but in favour of Western Civilization.  But the other centres does not have the specific requirement for them to be in favour of their respective research area. 

In my view, Ramsay Centre is well within their right to run their own courses the way they like, and set up their own learning institute.  Its not like they are lacking in funding with 3 billion dollars sitting in the bank.

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 2:33pm:


Have to have a tie breaker.. chairperson or whatever...

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 2:33pm:


But the university comittes are usually manned by univestities themselves +/- perhaps a few interested party.   Its like saying.... Glaxosmithkline wants to set up a pharmaceutical course in university of Melbourne, school of medicine, to study only glaxosmithkline made medicine.  Not just to study, but in favour of it.  It wants 50% of management, and it wants to make sure their version of medicine is taught 'correctly'.  Is that something appropriate?  Does it not appear to you that it does undermine the academic autonomy?

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 2:02pm:




Who said they can't get a say. Sure they can get a say, it was just that what the Ramsay centre wanted was unprecedented compared to anyone in the past.

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 3:04pm:


In social sciences?  Sounds dangerous to me.... those SS strait jackets are pretty serious stuff these days.... non-PC and you're dead.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 4:00pm:



Are they putting up the money? Where was it DEMANDED that they set up the course?

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 4:16pm:




Indeed. Unis need to maintain their academic integrity. I'm sorry if that square peg didnt fit your round hole.

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 4:23pm:




The formulation of the curriculum would be impaired since there would be pressure to put material in that the academics wouldn't be comfortable with. I'm sorry but I can't help but think whilst if the Islamic Council did the same thing (I'd be defending the ANU with you)

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 4:35pm:




Not if as was being put forward that the Ramsaty centre wanted to put their own academics in  to.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 4:38pm:



A link perhaps?

All I can find -

"The other said "a management committee including the Ramsay CEO and also its academic director will make staffing and curriculum decisions". "

https://www.smh.com.au/education/the-unenviable-task-ahead-for-ramsay-centre-bos...

Now seeing as the committee was split down the middle,  how you can ascertain that "Ramsay centre wanted to put their own academics in  to" it? Or even could do it.

Secret Wars wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 6:28pm:


OK, maybe a few are but most Academics are interested in Academic standing not, "Political Correctness" in the way it is used in this forum.  I remember a history academic who was tut, tut'ed 'cause he was a Marxist, at Flinders University, perhaps the second most radical university in Australia.   Yes, he was Marxist but only in the economic sense of the word, not the political meaning of it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 4:00pm:



There is no such spin. Islam has done fukall for this world.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 6:42pm:



"UWA cancels contract for Consensus Centre involving controversial academic Bjorn Lomborg"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-08/bjorn-lomborg-uwa-consensus-centre-contrac...

"UWA cancels talk by transgender sceptic Quentin Van Meter after protests"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-17/uwa-cancels-talk-by-controversial-academic...

They just didn't fit the narrative.

"‘No gender-based terminology’: Has political correctness gone too far?

FRESHMAN, actress, cameraman, cleaning lady, anchorman, and mankind are all no-no’s, according to one university’s new guidelines. "

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/no-genderbased-terminology-has-polit...

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 2:11pm:



Yes. The committee 4 from the university and 4 from Ramsay. Can you explain how that would see Ramsay putting their own academics into it?

"Who will teach the proposed degree?

Pending an agreement with each university partner it is proposed that academic and professional staff will be employed by the universities to teach and administer the program. The positions will be fully funded. Applications will be by normal university processes"

http://www.ramsaycentre.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 2:11pm:


Oh, look. Strawman arguments. Making propositions on the basis of NO evidence.

lee wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 7:04pm:


Those were not part of a course.  They were independently booked guest lecturers.  The students made it clear they weren't interested in listening to them or having their presence on campus.  Short-sighted?  Perhaps I believe we should respect the views of the students just as much the views of the Academics.  The last report BTW is about the USA - where anything can and does often happen, not Australia.  Tsk, tsk.   

Fools like you, OTOH, believe anybody who speaks at a University is giving a course there.  I once attended a guest lecture by David Irving way back in 1986.   He was out here supposedly to promote his then new book about Hitler and was giving a lecture supposedly about the 1956 Hungary Uprising.   He gave us a rant about Jews and their plot to control the world and how the USA bankrupted the British Empire.   There were grumblings from the students present but we listened politely.  I mentioned to the Professor of History that he was a "brave man for inviting Irving to speak."  He looked surprised,  He wasn't aware of any controversy surrounding Irving's views, despite it being widely publicised in the media of the day.  Many academics just don't care about the politics and the controversies of the day, unlike you lot.   

I don't consider anything published by News Limited and it's associated organs of the media to be justified to be called "research".  Tsk, tsk.  They are sensationalist crap.   

Secret Wars wrote on Sep 6^th, 2018 at 6:28pm:

lol, ...brains answer was that maybe a few are

lee wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 4:54pm:


Does that mean I can start a sentence with AND... as occurs in the New England Journal of Medicine?  Some jumped-up twerp at UNE said I couldn't - I said - but there is precedent.... now buggar off.

Some of these people need to get out more.... their Aspergers is showing.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 5:06pm:



Yes. Except of course "Students are to write strictly to the APA style regarding inclusive language".

So it is a guide that MUST be adhered to.

A Sandstone University? You mean like UWA?

http://www.hr.uwa.edu.au/policies/policies/equity/language

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 5:26pm:


Thank you, I made it to Sergeant.   

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 5:53pm:



The Garbage Disposal Unit?

lee wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 5:24pm:


I particularly liked:
Word order
Vary the order of listing pairs of nouns and pronouns when the customary way of presenting the pair reflects stereotyped views of status.

Instead of:                 Use:
men and women         women and men
boys and girls             girls and boys

lee wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 5:24pm:



Weird, APA style is a referencing system. Never seen it used about language of an essay


And when I go to the link provided there is no line stating
Students are to write strictly to the APA style regarding inclusive language.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 10^th, 2018 at 10:13am:


Because that statement was in relation to Curtin Uni.


lee wrote on Sep 7^th, 2018 at 4:54pm:


"UWA and Murdoch university have published non-discriminatory language guidelines that staff and students are expected to follow.

The UWA version advises students to replace “mankind” with “humankind” or “human race”, while “founding fathers” should instead become simply “founders” or “ancestors”.

A UWA spokeswoman said academics provided feedback and guidance to students on the appropriate use of language, but could not confirm if marks were subtracted for indiscretions."

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa/gender-specific-language-banned-at-some-wa-u...

Perhaps the "spokeswoman" (gender specific)  was wrong?