Quote:Non-muslims were not banned by Muhammad from Medina. That was your claim.
Here you go Gandalf:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 22
nd, 2018 at 6:00pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 22
nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:
Auggie wrote on Sep 22
nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 22
nd, 2018 at 11:19am:
Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?
The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.
I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.
Non-Muslims were banned from the area.
Rubbish. You are clearly confused.
You have also been claiming that Muhammad cannot be used as an example of Dhimmitude.
Quote:As far as I know pagans and jews were free to live and worship in Medina under the COM - provided they didn't conspire to overthrow Muhammad of course.
Did Muhammad violate this constitution when he publicly threatened to slaughter the Jews if they did not convert to Islam?
How long did it take after this constition until the area was ethnically cleansed of all non-Muslims?
Quote:But I'm curious FD, you have dabbled with two conflicting arguments over the years: first you said 'the jews did no wrong' - in terms of violating any treaty, and it was purely a case of Muhammad going back on his word, *HE* violated the treaty
Do you think he did?
Quote:But then not long ago you abandoned that and said that actually the Qurayza *DID* violate their agreement with Muhammad, but it was right and proper to do so, given that Muhammad was Hitler on steroids, evil incarnate etc etc.
I have been making arguments similar to what you describe for years Gandalf.
Quote:So the question is, for the purposes of this discussion, which way are you flip flopping today FD?
The arguments I actually made are not mutually exclusive. Only your misrepresentations of them. You are the only one here promoting collective punishment of mindless collectives of treacherous Jews. Once you let go of your racist mindless collective stereotype, both arguments make sense.
Other than converting or dying, what legal rights did Muhammad extend to Pagans?
Did the Jews have the right to keep their head attached to their body?
When Muhammad first came into a position where he could get away with slaughtering people, and he celebrated by publicly threatening to slaughter the Medina Jews if they did not convert to Islam, was he defending their right to convert to Islam, or their right to die?
When Muslims say that Dhimmitude is against oppression, do they really mean only for those non-Muslims in a position to negotiate some rights for themselves, and only for so long as Muslims choose to honour their agreement? Should we take this behaviour as indicative of the broader approach that Muslims have to respecting human rights?
Do you think I am being unfair by cherry picking Muhammad's campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing rather than focus on all the nice things he did?
How does the banning of pagans (and all non-Muslims) from their own Mecca for pagan ritual, and then the broader hejaz region, including Medina where they were supposedly protected by that constitution, fit in with your BS about pagans having rights?
How do Muhammad's campaigns to slaughter pagans and destroy pagan monuments and shrines fit in with your lies about pagans having rights?
And what about "tough titties, off with their heads"? Would you trust someone who said this about people they later insisted had rights?
After Muhammad concocted this constitution that supposedly granted the citizens of Medina freedom of religion, how long was it until he threatened the Jews of Medina with slaughter if they did not convert to Islam?
How long was it until he followed through with his threats and committed genocide?
How long was it until Muslims started blaming the Jews for their own demise with mindless collectives of treacherous Jews memes?
How long was it until pagans were banned from their own shrine in Mecca?
How long was it until pagans were banned from the city of Mecca?
How long was it until pagans were banned from the region of Hejaz, including Medina?
How long was it until Muhammad was launching raids to slaughter pagans and destroy competing pagan monuments and shrines?
How do you expect people to take you seriously when you claim Muhammad granted non-Muslims basic human rights such as freedom of religion?