Australian Politics Forum - Dhimmitude is against oppression?

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47472
At my desk.

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #195 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area. Muhammad himself committed genocide against the Jews of Medina. That's why it's hard to believe the constitution protected their rights. Are you disagreeing with me, or do you just not understand what I am saying?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #196 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:52pm

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area. Muhammad himself committed genocide against the Jews of Medina. That's why it's hard to believe the constitution protected their rights. Are you disagreeing with me, or do you just not understand what I am saying?

The burden is on you to prove that these acts of genocide were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution, which you seem to be saying.

Unless you can prove this, then your argument is moot.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47472
At my desk.

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #197 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:56pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:52pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area. Muhammad himself committed genocide against the Jews of Medina. That's why it's hard to believe the constitution protected their rights. Are you disagreeing with me, or do you just not understand what I am saying?

The burden is on you to prove that these acts of genocide were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution, which you seem to be saying.

Unless you can prove this, then your argument is moot.

Gandalf claimed the Jews were protected by the constitution. Depending on which particular backflip he is doing, he sometimes uses their alleged violation of the constitution to justify Muhammad's genocide.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #198 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:58pm

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:56pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:52pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area. Muhammad himself committed genocide against the Jews of Medina. That's why it's hard to believe the constitution protected their rights. Are you disagreeing with me, or do you just not understand what I am saying?

The burden is on you to prove that these acts of genocide were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution, which you seem to be saying.

Unless you can prove this, then your argument is moot.

Gandalf claimed the Jews were protected by the constitution. Depending on which particular backflip he is doing, he sometimes uses their alleged violation of the constitution to justify Muhammad's genocide.

That may be the case. Again, you need to show me that these acts were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution.

The slaughter of the so-called 'mindless collective' of Jews - did this take place after the Constitution or before?

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #199 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:02pm

Moving the goal posts, here is a statement from Wikipedia (sourced) about the Battle of Banu Qurayza:

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza initially tried to remain neutral but eventually entered into negotiations with the besieging army, violating the pact they had agreed to years earlier.[8] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[9][10] The Banu Qurayza eventually surrendered and their men were beheaded.[9][10][11][12][13]

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47472
At my desk.

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #200 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:04pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:58pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:56pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:52pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area. Muhammad himself committed genocide against the Jews of Medina. That's why it's hard to believe the constitution protected their rights. Are you disagreeing with me, or do you just not understand what I am saying?

The burden is on you to prove that these acts of genocide were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution, which you seem to be saying.

Unless you can prove this, then your argument is moot.

Gandalf claimed the Jews were protected by the constitution. Depending on which particular backflip he is doing, he sometimes uses their alleged violation of the constitution to justify Muhammad's genocide.

That may be the case. Again, you need to show me that these acts were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution.

The slaughter of the so-called 'mindless collective' of Jews - did this take place after the Constitution or before?

No I don't. I don't even think it was a constitution. I think it was a unilateral declaration by Muhammad that changed over time according to his whim.

You and Gandalf claimed the constitution protected their rights, not me. The onus is on you.

Quote:

Moving the goal posts, here is a statement from Wikipedia (sourced) about the Battle of Banu Qurayza:

What was this "pact," and do you think it was still binding after Muhammad started publicly threatening to slaughter the Jews if they did not convert to Islam?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #201 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:08pm

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:04pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:58pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:56pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:52pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area. Muhammad himself committed genocide against the Jews of Medina. That's why it's hard to believe the constitution protected their rights. Are you disagreeing with me, or do you just not understand what I am saying?

The burden is on you to prove that these acts of genocide were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution, which you seem to be saying.

Unless you can prove this, then your argument is moot.

Gandalf claimed the Jews were protected by the constitution. Depending on which particular backflip he is doing, he sometimes uses their alleged violation of the constitution to justify Muhammad's genocide.

That may be the case. Again, you need to show me that these acts were committed AFTER the promulgation of the Constitution.

The slaughter of the so-called 'mindless collective' of Jews - did this take place after the Constitution or before?

No I don't. I don't even think it was a constitution. I think it was a unilateral declaration by Muhammad that changed over time according to his whim.

You and Gandalf claimed the constitution protected their rights, not me. The onus is on you.

As you can see from the above post, the Jews violated the pact, which led to Muhammad to pursue his military campaign.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47472 At my desk.	Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression? Reply #202 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:09pm What was this "pact," and do you think it was still binding after Muhammad started publicly threatening to slaughter the Jews if they did not convert to Islam?
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #203 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:12pm

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:09pm:

What was this "pact," and do you think it was still binding after Muhammad started publicly threatening to slaughter the Jews if they did not convert to Islam?

How do you know that he massacred them BECAUSE they would not convert? Can you cite evidence that this happened or quotations from the Quran?

The above statement says that the 'pact' was the Constitution of Medina. The Jewish and other tribes violated that pact according to this article.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47472
At my desk.

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #204 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 4:30pm

Quote:

How do you know that he massacred them BECAUSE they would not convert? Can you cite evidence that this happened or quotations from the Quran?

I can cite him threatening to slaughter them if they do not convert to Islam, and I can cite historical accounts of him following this up by slaughtering them. As historical evidence goes, it rarely gets any better than that.

Quote:

The above statement says that the 'pact' was the Constitution of Medina.

Is this the same constitution you implied did not protect them because Muhammad concocted it after his genocide of the Jews?

Quote:

The Jewish and other tribes violated that pact according to this article.

I expect they did. Though Muslim sources cite some of his victims as coming to Muhammad's aide, despite the threats, and despite his actions already taken against another Jewish tribe.

Would you plot against a ruler who publicly threatened to kill you if you did not convert to his religion that placed him as the arbiter of God's will and you as a second class citizen? Or would you spinelessly apologise for such a ruler?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #205 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 5:49pm

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The "institution of Dhimmitude" didn't exist until after Muhammad's death FD. Which is why you once again twisting this into yet another 'yeah but Muhammad beheaded the jews' rant is so dumb.

Muhammad was more a 'equality for everyone' kind of guy. Hence the constitution of Medina you keep ignoring.

Dhimmitude was a system that was developed by the Caliphs as a practical measure to administer a massive geographical empire that had vast non-muslim subjects. A problem that Muhammad never faced.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47472
At my desk.

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #206 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 5:56pm

Quote:

Muhammad was more a 'equality for everyone' kind of guy. Hence the constitution of Medina you keep ignoring.

Was Muhammad in violation of this constitution when he threatened to slaughter the Jews of Medina if they did not convert to Islam?

Quote:

A problem that Muhammad never faced.

Because he killed them?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #207 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 6:00pm

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area.

Rubbish. You are clearly confused.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47472
At my desk.

Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #208 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 6:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 6:00pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 3:50pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:19am:

Gandalf, can you explain in your own words what rights you think Muhammad gave pagans and how he used the institution of Dhimmitude to protect them?

The Constitution of Medina protected those rights.

I don't know why you're finding this difficult to believe.

Non-Muslims were banned from the area.

Rubbish. You are clearly confused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

Non-Muslims are also strictly banned from the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina.

https://islamqa.info/en/47736

It is not permissible allow the kuffaar to take up residence in the Arabian Peninsula. The scholars differed at to the definition of the boundaries of the Arabian Peninsula, but they did not differ as to the fact that Madeenah is part of it.

Ibn Qudaamah said:

It is not permissible for any of them (the kuffaar) to live in the Hijaaz. This is the view of Maalik and al-Shaafa’i, but Maalik said: I think that they should be expelled from all the Arab lands, because the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.” Abu Dawood narrated with his isnaad from ‘Umar that he heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “I will certainly expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula,, and I will not leave anyone there but Muslims.” Al-Tirmidhi said: this is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. And it was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) left behind three instructions. He said: Expel the mushrikeen from the Arabian Peninsula, honour the delegations the way that I do, and he kept quiet about the third. Narrated by Abu Dawood.

Gandalf, is this what passes for freedom of religion under Islam?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Mattyfisk Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 92378 Gender:	Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression? Reply #209 - Sep 22^nd, 2018 at 11:02pm And here I was thinking we were discussing the right of Jews to keep their heads attached to their bodies. I guess we've moved on from that one.
Back to top	IP Logged