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Dhimmitude is against oppression? (Read 28791 times)
moses
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #15 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 3:05pm
 
Dhimmi

The conquered peoples by advancing Muslim armies were given the choice of either converting, being killed, or living as a conquered people, a dhimmi. These subjugated people were suspended in time and space, for dhimmitude meant being barely tolerated in your dispossessed land.

Although a legal definition of the dhimmi exists, that they must pay various taxes and tolls, that they must live a second class life and give deference to their Muslim neighbors, much of their tragic existence depended on the whims of despotic rulers and frenzied Arab mobs who denied them even the little that was given to them through Islamic law.

The manner in which the rules of dhimmitude were applied varied according to the political circumstances and the disposition of the ruler.

Communities could find themselves evicted, women raped, exorbitant ransoms placed on them, children abducted and forced to convert, and in other cases mass murders of the dhimmi population was condoned.

Rules would be formulated to deny the dhimmi due process of the law. Discriminatory and restrictive dress and behavior codes would be enacted and severely enforced to reduce the dhimmi into a state of despair and poverty. Dehumanization of the dhimmi was not uncommon, and generally the rule. Various forms of physical abuse were common.

Many times distinctive dress was specified to identify a dhimmi that he would be unable to either mix with a Muslim or even walk in a Muslim area of a city. Other rules specified such demeaning dress codes as not wearing shoes or sandals, not using certain colors, wearing stars on their clothing. Dhimmis were often prohibited from working in many occupations. Even rules were made as to how a dhimmi could ride a mule to distinguish him from a Muslim.

The non-observance of these rules would entail a severe beating. Often passing a Muslim on the wrong side would begin a beating that could leave a dhimmi mortally wounded.
Since the dhimmis were denied the ability to testify against a Muslim, there was absolutely no recourse



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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #16 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 3:41pm
 
moses wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 3:05pm:
Dhimmi

The conquered peoples by advancing Muslim armies were given the choice of either converting, being killed, or living as a conquered people, a dhimmi. These subjugated people were suspended in time and space, for dhimmitude meant being barely tolerated in your dispossessed land.

Although a legal definition of the dhimmi exists, that they must pay various taxes and tolls, that they must live a second class life and give deference to their Muslim neighbors, much of their tragic existence depended on the whims of despotic rulers and frenzied Arab mobs who denied them even the little that was given to them through Islamic law.

The manner in which the rules of dhimmitude were applied varied according to the political circumstances and the disposition of the ruler.

Communities could find themselves evicted, women raped, exorbitant ransoms placed on them, children abducted and forced to convert, and in other cases mass murders of the dhimmi population was condoned.

Rules would be formulated to deny the dhimmi due process of the law. Discriminatory and restrictive dress and behavior codes would be enacted and severely enforced to reduce the dhimmi into a state of despair and poverty. Dehumanization of the dhimmi was not uncommon, and generally the rule. Various forms of physical abuse were common.

Many times distinctive dress was specified to identify a dhimmi that he would be unable to either mix with a Muslim or even walk in a Muslim area of a city. Other rules specified such demeaning dress codes as not wearing shoes or sandals, not using certain colors, wearing stars on their clothing. Dhimmis were often prohibited from working in many occupations. Even rules were made as to how a dhimmi could ride a mule to distinguish him from a Muslim.

The non-observance of these rules would entail a severe beating. Often passing a Muslim on the wrong side would begin a beating that could leave a dhimmi mortally wounded.
Since the dhimmis were denied the ability to testify against a Muslim, there was absolutely no recourse





A lot of that reminds me of Israelis' treatment of Arabs in Israel and particularly, Gazans.
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moses
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #17 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 3:51pm
 
Exactly, but continuos lies about how marvelous and victimized islam is, will not fix the problem.
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Frank
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #18 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:09pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 12:24pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 8:05am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 11:51pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 6:08pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 5:49pm:
Maybe we should treat Muslims as dhimmis for their own protection. Wear a crescent on their clothes to identify themselves, make them pay extra tax, make sure they always give way to the kuffar on the streets and forbid them to publicly speak about Islam or build any mosques.


Obviously learnt a lot from your superior culture, now haven't you, Soren?  Do you want us all to wear nice black uniforms with nice red armbands with a crooked cross emblazoned on them?  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


What do you think Brian, do you agree with what Gandalf said about Dhimmitude? Or do you think he is polishing a turd?


I think Gandalf is sugar coating that turd


Do you now?

Quote:
Under sharia, the dhimmi communities were usually subjected to their own special laws, and exempt from some laws applicable to the Muslim community. For example, the Jewish community in Medina was allowed to have its own Halakhic courts,[9] and the Ottoman millet system allowed its various dhimmi communities to rule themselves under separate legal courts. These courts did not cover cases that involved religious groups outside of their own community, or capital offences. Dhimmi communities were also allowed to engage in certain practices that were usually forbidden for the Muslim community, such as the consumption of alcohol and pork.[10][11][12]

Historically, dhimmi status was originally applied to Jews, Christians, and Sabians. This status later also came to be applied to Zoroastrians, Hindus, Jains and Buddhists.[13][14][15]


Similar principles applied in many ancient empires, including Rome, where citizenship applied only to Romans with various rights, powers - and taxes - applying to non-citizens.

The issue here was how to apply a rule of law within a civilisation that housed people of different faiths, rules and laws. Dhimmi means "protected", and is generally understood to have been a fair system.

Quote:
Dhimmis had their rights fully protected in their communities, but as citizens in the Islamic state, had certain restrictions,[4] and it was obligatory for them to pay the jizya tax, which complemented the zakat, or alms, paid by the Muslim subjects.[5] Dhimmis were exempt from certain duties assigned specifically to Muslims, and did not enjoy certain political rights reserved for Muslims, but were otherwise equal under the laws of property, contract, and obligation.[6][7][8]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Protecting minorities is correct. It's literally what Dhimmi means.


Muhammad committed genocide against the Jewish community of Medina.


Oh, I know.

Source: the Wiki.

Yeah, sorry, committed jihad. Muslims killing large number of people for Allah has nuffin to do wiv genocide or terrorism.  Is rightous self-defence  innit. Not submitting to islam is rewarded with jihad in self-defence. Ask your mates, Paki, they never heard of muslim terrorism.
That the koran says they have to kill all the jews for world peace is just spiritual thriving.
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #19 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:12pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 3:41pm:
moses wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 3:05pm:
Dhimmi

The conquered peoples by advancing Muslim armies were given the choice of either converting, being killed, or living as a conquered people, a dhimmi. These subjugated people were suspended in time and space, for dhimmitude meant being barely tolerated in your dispossessed land.

Although a legal definition of the dhimmi exists, that they must pay various taxes and tolls, that they must live a second class life and give deference to their Muslim neighbors, much of their tragic existence depended on the whims of despotic rulers and frenzied Arab mobs who denied them even the little that was given to them through Islamic law.

The manner in which the rules of dhimmitude were applied varied according to the political circumstances and the disposition of the ruler.

Communities could find themselves evicted, women raped, exorbitant ransoms placed on them, children abducted and forced to convert, and in other cases mass murders of the dhimmi population was condoned.

Rules would be formulated to deny the dhimmi due process of the law. Discriminatory and restrictive dress and behavior codes would be enacted and severely enforced to reduce the dhimmi into a state of despair and poverty. Dehumanization of the dhimmi was not uncommon, and generally the rule. Various forms of physical abuse were common.

Many times distinctive dress was specified to identify a dhimmi that he would be unable to either mix with a Muslim or even walk in a Muslim area of a city. Other rules specified such demeaning dress codes as not wearing shoes or sandals, not using certain colors, wearing stars on their clothing. Dhimmis were often prohibited from working in many occupations. Even rules were made as to how a dhimmi could ride a mule to distinguish him from a Muslim.

The non-observance of these rules would entail a severe beating. Often passing a Muslim on the wrong side would begin a beating that could leave a dhimmi mortally wounded.
Since the dhimmis were denied the ability to testify against a Muslim, there was absolutely no recourse





A lot of that reminds me of Israelis' treatment of Arabs in Israel and particularly, Gazans.


I challenge you to find a past or present Muslim nation that treats non-Muslims as well as non-Jewish Israeli citizens.
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #20 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:26pm
 
Quote:
I challenge you to find a past or present Muslim nation that treats non-Muslims as well as non-Jewish Israeli citizens.


I'll leave that to you Effendi.  All I know is how Israel treats its Arab citizens as less worthy/equal than Jewish citizens, and it's appalling behaviour against Arab Gaza.
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #21 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:34pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:26pm:
Quote:
I challenge you to find a past or present Muslim nation that treats non-Muslims as well as non-Jewish Israeli citizens.


I'll leave that to you Effendi.  All I know is how Israel treats its Arab citizens as less worthy/equal than Jewish citizens, and it's appalling behaviour against Arab Gaza.


Would it be fair to say that the worst example you can come up with that supports your point, whatever it is, is better than the best example of any past or present Muslim nation you can present?
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #22 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:34pm:
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:26pm:
Quote:
I challenge you to find a past or present Muslim nation that treats non-Muslims as well as non-Jewish Israeli citizens.


I'll leave that to you Effendi.  All I know is how Israel treats its Arab citizens as less worthy/equal than Jewish citizens, and it's appalling behaviour against Arab Gaza.


Would it be fair to say that the worst example you can come up with that supports your point, whatever it is, is better than the best example of any past or present Muslim nation you can present?


My point is simple Effendi.  Israel has two classes of citizenship, and the distinction is 'tribally' discriminatory.....Arab/Jew.  Further, not even a dribbling imbecile would regard Israel's treatment of Gaza/Gazans as anything other than appalling.

I have not even looked for 'worst examples.'  As I said, I'll leave that to you.

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15?
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #23 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:56pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:48pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:34pm:
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 4:26pm:
Quote:
I challenge you to find a past or present Muslim nation that treats non-Muslims as well as non-Jewish Israeli citizens.


I'll leave that to you Effendi.  All I know is how Israel treats its Arab citizens as less worthy/equal than Jewish citizens, and it's appalling behaviour against Arab Gaza.


Would it be fair to say that the worst example you can come up with that supports your point, whatever it is, is better than the best example of any past or present Muslim nation you can present?


My point is simple Effendi.  Israel has two classes of citizenship, and the distinction is 'tribally' discriminatory.....Arab/Jew.  Further, not even a dribbling imbecile would regard Israel's treatment of Gaza/Gazans as anything other than appalling.

I have not even looked for 'worst examples.'  As I said, I'll leave that to you.

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15?


This is a thread about Dhimmitude, and Gandalf's claim that it is against oppression. If the worst non-Muslim example you can give is better than the best example of a Muslim nation you can give, then you have made my point for me.
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #24 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:02pm
 
'Atta boy, Effendi.  Run away (just as you accuse others of doing, including me.)

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15? 
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #25 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:21pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 11:51pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 6:08pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 1st, 2018 at 5:49pm:
Maybe we should treat Muslims as dhimmis for their own protection. Wear a crescent on their clothes to identify themselves, make them pay extra tax, make sure they always give way to the kuffar on the streets and forbid them to publicly speak about Islam or build any mosques.


Obviously learnt a lot from your superior culture, now haven't you, Soren?  Do you want us all to wear nice black uniforms with nice red armbands with a crooked cross emblazoned on them?  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


What do you think Brian, do you agree with what Gandalf said about Dhimmitude? Or do you think he is polishing a turd?


I think Gandalf is sugar coating that turd


Do you now?




From your link
Quote:
Payment of the jizya obligated Muslim authorities to protect dhimmis in civil and military matters. Sura 9 (At-Tawba), verse 29 stipulates that jizya be exacted from non-Muslims as a condition required for jihad to cease. Failure to pay the jizya could result in the pledge of protection of a dhimmi's life and property becoming void, with the dhimmi facing the alternatives of conversion, enslavement, death or imprisonment, as advocated by Abu Yusuf, the chief qadi (Islamic judge) of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid who ruled over much of modern-day Iraq.[10




What does this verse from the Quran they cited mean Mr paki stain?


Quote:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

https://quran.com/9/29




Does Allah the most merciful of those who show mercy command muslims to fight non muslims until they convert to Islam or pay protection money called the Jizya?


The Mafia and Islam are the only cults that require people to pay protection money
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #26 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:47pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:02pm:
'Atta boy, Effendi.  Run away (just as you accuse others of doing, including me.)

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15? 


Do you have a relevant point to make? Or are you just saying, hey everyone, look over there! Gah! Israel! OK, it may not be as bad as any Muslim nation in the entire history of Muslim nations, but you should still pay more attention to it....
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #27 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:55pm
 
Effendi...really.......

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15?
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #28 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:56pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:55pm:
Effendi...really.......

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15?


Am I person number 9, or person number 11?
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Re: Dhimmitude is against oppression?
Reply #29 - Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:56pm:
Aussie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2018 at 5:55pm:
Effendi...really.......

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15?


Am I person number 9, or person number 11?


I have no idea.

Here is a simple question for you Effendi......which is worse ~ a person who slays 10 people or one who slays 15?
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