Australian Politics Forum - What are numbers?

Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10958 Australia Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #15 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 2:28pm Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 4:33pm: Plato claimed that numbers exist in some mind-independent abstract heaven. Nominalists claim that there is no such heaven. Clearly, we can't see, hear, taste or feel numbers. But if there are no numbers what is mathematics all about? A universal language.........?!
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The_Barnacle

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #16 - Sep 3^rd, 2018 at 11:52am

TheFunPolice wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:23pm:

How can the speed of light be a mathematical constant when it's a physical idea?

I have heard the speed of light is actually not constant!!

The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its exact value is 299,792,458 metres per second

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46482 Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #17 - Sep 3^rd, 2018 at 7:03pm Gravity can bend light, slow light, distort light. Gravity seems to be the most powerful force in the Universe. Gravity should be the new name for God.
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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10305 Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #18 - Sep 3^rd, 2018 at 7:34pm I thought it was obvious, mathematics is a psychological invention the same as spoken language is. We don't say "ugh" "ugh" anymore and we don't grab an overflowing armful of tree fruit anymore Language and numbers and mathematics civilized us, we needed them
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46482 Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #19 - Sep 3^rd, 2018 at 10:46pm I know, I know. Mathematics was invented by the Blacks and used by the Greys with their 'Science'. Words were spoken by the Whites (hence why English will be the premier global language) and used by the Browns with their 'Religion'. Eveything 'equalises'
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issuevoter

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #20 - Sep 4^th, 2018 at 6:29pm

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 4:33pm:

Plato claimed that numbers exist in some mind-independent abstract heaven. Nominalists claim that there is no such heaven. Clearly, we can't see, hear, taste or feel numbers. But if there are no numbers what is mathematics all about?

Actual numbers: 0, 1,2,3 et cetera are part of written language, and are used to express concepts. Therefore, they are human constructs, but if we are talking about the concepts they express, they appear to be borne out in physics. If we say we cannot sense them, I am not sure that is so. I can hear musical intervals, perhaps not as well as some, but I easily hear 1, 3, 5 in the major scale. Its like when the Three Stooges do that Hello, Hello, Hello, routine.

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Super Nova

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #21 - Sep 4^th, 2018 at 8:40pm

issuevoter wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 6:29pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 4:33pm:

Plato claimed that numbers exist in some mind-independent abstract heaven. Nominalists claim that there is no such heaven. Clearly, we can't see, hear, taste or feel numbers. But if there are no numbers what is mathematics all about?

Actual numbers: 0, 1,2,3 et cetera are part of written language, and are used to express concepts. Therefore, they are human constructs, but if we are talking about the concepts they express, they appear to be borne out in physics. If we say we cannot sense them, I am not sure that is so. I can hear musical intervals, perhaps not as well as some, but I easily hear 1, 3, 5 in the major scale. Its like when the Three Stooges do that Hello, Hello, Hello, routine.

I think many of the concepts they express are representations of the physical world. However, there are concepts that are not.

Simple example of a number that is represented would be PI. The ratio of the diameter to the circumference. A number derived by observing the physical world. Very useful number.

Concepts that I would challenge that are useful to mathematics but may not be represented in the physical world IMO are:
- Infinity – there is not evidence that anything is infinite in the universe…. Just a handy concept
- Imaginary numbers based on SQRT(-1). Useful but does not exist.
- Higher dimensional maths. Purely conceptual, very useful as pure thought and extending to other problems…. But do they exist

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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20223 Gordon Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #22 - Sep 4^th, 2018 at 8:44pm I think fractals in nature are very interesting and a sure sign of the natural existence of maths.
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Super Nova

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #23 - Sep 4^th, 2018 at 10:23pm

Jasin wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2018 at 7:03pm:

Gravity can bend light, slow light, distort light.

Gravity seems to be the most powerful force in the Universe.

Gravity should be the new name for God.

Gravity doesn't bend light. Space is bent by gravity and the light travels in a straight line through the bent space.

It appears to be the most powerful force influencing the macro universe. We have realized that something else, Dark Matter/Energy is out there and appears to have all the extra matter/energy to explain the behavour of the universe that we cannot see or detect... yet.

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Super Nova

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #24 - Sep 4^th, 2018 at 10:26pm

Gordon wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 8:44pm:

I think fractals in nature are very interesting and a sure sign of the natural existence of maths.

Fractals are fab. Such simple formula, rules, equations can build what appears to be very complex structures.

But fractals are just repeating rules..... we can describe them with math or formulas but the universe doesn't need maths to have simple rules that produce structures... even beautiful ones.

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issuevoter

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #25 - Sep 5^th, 2018 at 6:50am

Super Nova wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 10:26pm:

Gordon wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 8:44pm:

I think fractals in nature are very interesting and a sure sign of the natural existence of maths.

Fractals are fab. Such simple formula, rules, equations can build what appears to be very complex structures.

But fractals are just repeating rules..... we can describe them with math or formulas but the universe doesn't need maths to have simple rules that produce structures... even beautiful ones.

You could say that numbers are just repeating rules too. Each time we add one, we get a new number, but its made up of the previous. 1+1=2

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Super Nova

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #26 - Sep 6^th, 2018 at 1:33am

issuevoter wrote on Sep 5^th, 2018 at 6:50am:

Super Nova wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 10:26pm:

Gordon wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 8:44pm:

I think fractals in nature are very interesting and a sure sign of the natural existence of maths.

Fractals are fab. Such simple formula, rules, equations can build what appears to be very complex structures.

But fractals are just repeating rules..... we can describe them with math or formulas but the universe doesn't need maths to have simple rules that produce structures... even beautiful ones.

You could say that numbers are just repeating rules too. Each time we add one, we get a new number, but its made up of the previous. 1+1=2

That is true but we can create rules and ratios that do not exist in nature. Therefore I would conclude maths is a human creation.

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Johnnie

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #27 - Sep 13^th, 2018 at 5:00pm

Super Nova wrote on Sep 4^th, 2018 at 10:23pm:

Jasin wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2018 at 7:03pm:

Gravity can bend light, slow light, distort light.

Gravity seems to be the most powerful force in the Universe.

Gravity should be the new name for God.

Gravity doesn't bend light. Space is bent by gravity and the light travels in a straight line through the bent space.

It appears to be the most powerful force influencing the macro universe. We have realized that something else, Dark Matter/Energy is out there and appears to have all the extra matter/energy to explain the behavour of the universe that we cannot see or detect... yet.

Doesn't gravity bend space time which in turn bends light.
And what about black holes, nothing escapes them.

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