Australian Politics Forum - What are numbers?

Super Nova Moderator Offline Posts: 3042 Everywhere Gender:	What are numbers? Aug 31^st, 2018 at 4:33pm Plato claimed that numbers exist in some mind-independent abstract heaven. Nominalists claim that there is no such heaven. Clearly, we can't see, hear, taste or feel numbers. But if there are no numbers what is mathematics all about?
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20231 Gordon Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #1 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 7:54pm Great topic, SN. Ignore the turd, he's just trying to derail the topic. I suggest you try out you your new mod buttons and flush the turds.
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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #2 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:03pm

There are a few examples of cultures that are anumeric (have just about no vocabulary for numbers). One small and isolated tribe in The Amazon has only 3 words which roughly equate to 3 different size groups of things. Consequently they are unable to consistently perform simple mathematical tasks. So without the concept of numbers, they don't exist

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Super Nova Moderator Offline Posts: 3042 Everywhere Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #3 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe. Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.
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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #4 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:33pm

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I think they're a fundamental part of the universe and beings, human or otherwise who live without them are essentially unaware of the extra dimensions available when math is used.

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Super Nova

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #5 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:50pm

Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I think they're a fundamental part of the universe and beings, human or otherwise who live without them are essentially unaware of the extra dimensions available when math is used.

I would argue that ratios are a part of the universe but maths is not. It is just our invention.

Then I think, well surely an Alien Race would create the same maths and they would invent the same stuff.

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #6 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:58pm

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:50pm:

Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I think they're a fundamental part of the universe and beings, human or otherwise who live without them are essentially unaware of the extra dimensions available when math is used.

I would argue that ratios are a part of the universe but maths is not. It is just our invention.

Then I think, well surely an Alien Race would create the same maths and they would invent the same stuff.

I can't remember the source as I heard it on a late night insomnia science podcast, but a mathematician and cosmologist were saying that some kinds of math are a universal constant and only need to be described.

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The_Barnacle

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #7 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 12:01pm

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I would describe mathematics as a language we use to describe the universe.

Whilst the particular mathematical language we use is a human construction, the processes it describes are fundamentals of nature. There are many mathematical constants: the Speed of Light and Pi to name just two.

Also the fact that mathematics can be used to make accurate predictions shows that it is fundamental to nature

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TheFunPolice Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9009 waggawagga Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #8 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:10pm Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 7:54pm: Great topic, SN. Ignore the turd, he's just trying to derail the topic. I suggest you try out you your new mod buttons and flush the turds. Was there previously another number one reply before your comment?
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TheFunPolice

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #9 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:11pm

Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:03pm:

There are a few examples of cultures that are anumeric (have just about no vocabulary for numbers). One small and isolated tribe in The Amazon has only 3 words which roughly equate to 3 different size groups of things. Consequently they are unable to consistently perform simple mathematical tasks. So without the concept of numbers, they don't exist

Fair enough, but Gordon: do you know if these tribes have any strengths because of their anumeric existence?

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TheFunPolice Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9009 waggawagga Gender:	Re: What are numbers? Reply #10 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:13pm Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm: Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe. Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature. It must be created by us! But what is "a fundamental of nature"?
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TheFunPolice

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #11 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:14pm

Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I think they're a fundamental part of the universe and beings, human or otherwise who live without them are essentially unaware of the extra dimensions available when math is used.

You have a
point, but I would still like to see if the tribes you talked about that were living an anumeric existence had any strengths before I made my decision.

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TheFunPolice

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #12 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:15pm

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:50pm:

Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I think they're a fundamental part of the universe and beings, human or otherwise who live without them are essentially unaware of the extra dimensions available when math is used.

I would argue that ratios are a part of the universe but maths is not. It is just our invention.

Then I think, well surely an Alien Race would create the same maths and they would invent the same stuff.

I would argue ratios are maths.... Shocked

Ergo?

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TheFunPolice

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #13 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:19pm

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:50pm:

Gordon wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I think they're a fundamental part of the universe and beings, human or otherwise who live without them are essentially unaware of the extra dimensions available when math is used.

I would argue that ratios are a part of the universe but maths is not. It is just our invention.

Then I think, well surely an Alien Race would create the same maths and they would invent the same stuff.

Yes, but invention is not maths.... or should I perhaps say the applied sciences resulting in technology is not maths!??!

I think maybe the point maybe- tho I don't know of course- that science is one of these so called 'fundamentls of nature' but maths was a human invention used as a tool to understand science and therefore since we applied such science over time we ended up producing this technical world we live in today.

Or perhaps I am saying the science we understand today is itself a human construction built off the back of the mathematical tools we developed all observed by the fact that science is presumably incomplete.

Huh

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Re: What are numbers?
Reply #14 - Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 1:23pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2018 at 12:01pm:

Super Nova wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

Is maths created by us or is it there to be discovered an part of the universe.

Is mathematics just a human construction that we created and not really a fundamental of nature.

I would describe mathematics as a language we use to describe the universe.

Whilst the particular mathematical language we use is a human construction, the processes it describes are fundamentals of nature. There are many mathematical constants: the Speed of Light and Pi to name just two.

Also the fact that mathematics can be used to make accurate predictions shows that it is fundamental to nature

How can the speed of light be a mathematical constant when it's a physical idea?

I have heard the speed of light is actually not constant!!

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