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Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic (Read 3269 times)
cods
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #15 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:51am
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Why do people who kill other people for a living get labeled war hero?

I challenge the concept that killing people is heroic.

Saving people from being killed is heroic.

Rescuing people in danger or mortal danger is heroic.

Killing people is not heroic.

Soldiers cannot be heroic just by killing people.



   I havent heard of anyone being given a medal just for KILLING someone   

who are you talking about un4?..
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #16 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:38am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:51am:
1. What if you have to kill some people to save others?

2. Would you describe the people fighting IS in Iraq as heroes?

3. What about the soldiers who fought the Nazis?


1. That would require a consideration of the merits of both sides and consideration of the fact that a person isn't killed until they are dead, therefore one cannot presume one person will kill another merely because they are holding a gun. So by the time proper consideration is given the incident may be over.

2. No. Many of them are no better than ISIS which was created out of US mismanagement of Iraq and Saudi radicalization, arming, and funding of Iraqi Sunni extremists. The Saudis have an interest in fomenting chaos in Iraq and Iran and are still doing so. The USA is responsible for the mess in the first place by invading Iraq under false pretexts and then causing Sunnis to be economically and socially ostracized in Iraq.

3. A day at the office. More than 1 million German soldiers died in captivity because of soldiers "office procedures" which included denying shelter, food and medical treatment and in some cases machine gunning them against a wall.
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« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:03pm by Unforgiven »  

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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #17 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:07pm
 
cods wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:51am:
I havent heard of anyone being given a medal just for KILLING someone 


Snipers.
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #18 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:16pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:38am:
freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:51am:
1. What if you have to kill some people to save others?

2. Would you describe the people fighting IS in Iraq as heroes?

3. What about the soldiers who fought the Nazis?


1. That would require a consideration of the merits of both sides and consideration of the fact that a person isn't killed until they are dead, therefore one cannot presume one person will kill another merely because they are holding a gun. So by the time proper consideration is given the incident may be over.

2. No. Many of them are no better than ISIS which was created out of US mismanagement of Iraq and Saudi radicalization, arming, and funding of Iraqi Sunni extremists. The Saudis have an interest in fomenting chaos in Iraq and Iran and are still doing so. The USA is responsible for the mess in the first place by invading Iraq under false pretexts and then causing Sunnis to be economically and socially ostracized in Iraq.

3. A day at the office. More than 1 million German soldiers died in captivity because of soldiers "office procedures" which included denying shelter, food and medical treatment and in some cases machine gunning them against a wall.


What exactly do you think heroism is? Inability to act without absolute certainty?

Why is Thomson a hero without any absolute proof he saved any people, but a soldier who actually has to put his life on the line in a fight to the death is not?
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #19 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
What exactly do you think heroism is? Inability to act without absolute certainty?

Why is Thomson a hero without any absolute proof he saved any people, but a soldier who actually has to put his life on the line in a fight to the death is not?


Heroism is acting for the greater good of humanity in the face of agents of inhumanity.

Thompson saved people at My Lai and caused other similar actions planned by the US military from being implemented.

Thompson was vilified by 'hero' soldiers and 'hero' politicians and received death threats.

Below is one of the My Lai picture.

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.

Quote:
... After the massacre
Thompson made an official report of the killings and was interviewed by Colonel Oran Henderson, the commander of the 11th Infantry Brigade (the parent organization of the 20th Infantry).[10] Concerned, senior Americal Division officers cancelled similar planned operations by Task Force Barker against other villages (My Lai 5, My Lai 1, etc.) in Quảng Ngăi Province, possibly preventing the additional massacre of further hundreds, if not thousands, of Vietnamese civilians.[2]:219-220

Initially, commanders throughout the American chain of command were successful in covering up the My Lai massacre. Thompson quickly received the Distinguished Flying Cross for his actions at My Lai. The citation for the award fabricated events, for example praising Thompson for taking to a hospital a Vietnamese child "...caught in intense crossfire". It also stated that his "...sound judgment had greatly enhanced Vietnamese–American relations in the operational area." Thompson threw away the citation.[4]:204–205

Thompson continued to fly observation missions in the OH-23 and was hit by enemy fire a total of eight times. In four of those instances, his aircraft was lost.[2]:146 In the last incident, his helicopter was brought down by enemy machine-gun fire, and he broke his back in the resulting crash landing. This ended his combat career in Vietnam. He was evacuated to a hospital in Japan and began a long period of rehabilitation.

When news of the massacre publicly broke, Thompson repeated his account to then-Colonel William Wilson[4]:222–235 and then-Lieutenant General William Peers during their official Pentagon investigations.[11] In late-1969, Thompson was summoned to Washington, DC to appear before a special closed hearing of the House Armed Services Committee. There, he was sharply criticized by congressmen, in particular Chairman Mendel Rivers (D-S.C.), who were anxious to play down allegations of a massacre by American troops.[4]:290–291 Rivers publicly stated that he felt Thompson was the only soldier at My Lai who should be punished (for turning his weapons on fellow American troops) and unsuccessfully attempted to have him court-martialed.[3]

Thompson was vilified by many Americans for his testimony against United States Army personnel. He recounted in a CBS 60 Minutes television program in 2004, "I'd received death threats over the phone...Dead animals on your porch, mutilated animals on your porch some mornings when you get up."[12][5]

After his Vietnam service, Thompson was assigned to Fort Rucker to become an instructor pilot and later received a direct commission, attaining the rank of captain and retired as a major.[13] His other military assignments included Fort Jackson, South Korea, Fort Ord, Fort Hood, and bases in Hawaii. He retired from the army in 1983. ...
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #20 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:06pm
 
Here's a question- what would happen to our countries if they were made entirely up of hippies?
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #21 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:12pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Why do people who kill other people for a living get labeled war hero?

I challenge the concept that killing people is heroic.

Saving people from being killed is heroic.

Rescuing people in danger or mortal danger is heroic.

Killing people is not heroic.

Soldiers cannot be heroic just by killing people.


True.

So very true.
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #22 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:17pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
Here's a question- what would happen to our countries if they were made entirely up of hippies?


Mr. Hammer would lose his virginity to a homosexual hippy.
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #23 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:20pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Why do people who kill other people for a living get labeled war hero?

I challenge the concept that killing people is heroic.

Saving people from being killed is heroic.

Rescuing people in danger or mortal danger is heroic.

Killing people is not heroic.

Soldiers cannot be heroic just by killing people.


True.

So very true.

I suggest you look up vc winners and their actions pecca. Many were given to men who died so their mates wouldn't. Some were given to medics, some to men who saved fellow wounded soldiers. The VC just isn't about killing the enemy. It's about while facing the high chance of death doing extraordinary  actions.
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #24 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:21pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:17pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
Here's a question- what would happen to our countries if they were made entirely up of hippies?


Mr. Hammer would lose his virginity to a homosexual hippy.

And you'd beg and grovel for survival.
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #25 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm
 
Quote:
Thompson saved people at My Lai


Not by your own standard of evidence.

Quote:
Heroism is acting for the greater good of humanity in the face of agents of inhumanity.


And fighting Nazis and IS is not doing this?
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #26 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
It's about while facing the high chance of death doing extraordinary  actions.


So you contend that extraordinary actions of humanity while not facing death don't count as heroism?
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #27 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:26pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
It's about while facing the high chance of death doing extraordinary  actions.


So you contend that extraordinary actions of humanity while not facing death don't count as heroism?


The only one making absurd generalisations is you.

Quote:
Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic


Obviously, putting your own life at risk takes a lot more bravery than dobbing people in.
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #28 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:27pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
It's about while facing the high chance of death doing extraordinary  actions.


So you contend that extraordinary actions of humanity while not facing death don't count as heroism?

in war it isn't. the vc is a military award. do-gooders get their own rewards. You are comparing chalk and cheese.
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Soldiers killing people cannot be heroic
Reply #29 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:29pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Why do people who kill other people for a living get labeled war hero?

I challenge the concept that killing people is heroic.

Saving people from being killed is heroic.

Rescuing people in danger or mortal danger is heroic.

Killing people is not heroic.

Soldiers cannot be heroic just by killing people.


True.

So very true.

I suggest you look up vc winners and their actions pecca. Many were given to men who died so their mates wouldn't. Some were given to medics, some to men who saved fellow wounded soldiers. The VC just isn't about killing the enemy. It's about while facing the high chance of death doing extraordinary  actions.


I never mentioned the VC.

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