Australian Politics Forum - The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #75 - Aug 17^th, 2018 at 12:44pm I'm saying you support banning the burqa. The specific settings in which you support this doesn't change this simple fact. By the way, can you explain to me how a veiled woman in a courtroom makes freedom of speech and freedom of movement "go out the window"?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #76 - Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?
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Mattyfisk

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #77 - Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:13pm

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

That's the Boongs, FD, don't get your tinted races mixed up.

Is the courthouse restriction the only burqa restriction you have an issue with?

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Aussie

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #78 - Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:17pm

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session.

Bad example, Effendi. Doing that is breaching existing law which says thou shalt not drink alcohol in an unlicenced public place.

Quote:

Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

There are many restrictions Effendi. All imposed by petulant occupiers of ivory towers who claim that they must preserve some dignity and 'respect' in Court Rooms, instead of doing the daily routine/job which is what they monotonously do......sausage meat in, sausages out....rinse and repeat.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #79 - Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:38pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session.

Bad example, Effendi. Doing that is breaching existing law which says thou shalt not drink alcohol in an unlicenced public place.

Quote:

Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

There are many restrictions Effendi. All imposed by petulant occupiers of ivory towers who claim that they must preserve some dignity and 'respect' in Court Rooms, instead of doing the daily routine/job which is what they monotonously do......sausage meat in, sausages out....rinse and repeat.

Well, that wouldn't be fair then, Aussie, would it? FD has already told us he supports the donning of burqa for culturally-appropriate reasons.

You know, like the donning of the KKK uniform.

Freeeedom, innit.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #80 - Aug 20^th, 2018 at 9:45am

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

We ban alcohol all the time FD. And usually for good reasons. The burqa is not a drug that numbs your inhibitions and can make you a danger to yourself and others. So really bad analogy there.

I think the main problem you have here is that you have no reasonable justification for banning the burqa in a courtroom - especially when you attempt to justify it on the absurd grounds that it is at least as political/intimidatory/sinister as a KKK outfit. And in the original discussion I pointed out how the woman was prepared to undergo a security and identity check from a female security guard - to allay any potential risks on that front. And in case you forgot the original story - she wasn't even going to take the stand - merely wanted to be in the room to support her husband.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #81 - Aug 20^th, 2018 at 5:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 9:45am:

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

We ban alcohol all the time FD. And usually for good reasons. The burqa is not a drug that numbs your inhibitions and can make you a danger to yourself and others. So really bad analogy there.

I think the main problem you have here is that you have no reasonable justification for banning the burqa in a courtroom - especially when you attempt to justify it on the absurd grounds that it is at least as political/intimidatory/sinister as a KKK outfit. And in the original discussion I pointed out how the woman was prepared to undergo a security and identity check from a female security guard - to allay any potential risks on that front. And in case you forgot the original story - she wasn't even going to take the stand - merely wanted to be in the room to support her husband.

Way to mis the point Gandalf. Let me go back to my previous phrasing: in a courtroom, you have the right to sit down and shut up. Given that, don't you think it's a little hysterical to equate a courtroom ban with a nationwide ban?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #82 - Aug 20^th, 2018 at 9:29pm

freediver wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 5:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 9:45am:

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

We ban alcohol all the time FD. And usually for good reasons. The burqa is not a drug that numbs your inhibitions and can make you a danger to yourself and others. So really bad analogy there.

I think the main problem you have here is that you have no reasonable justification for banning the burqa in a courtroom - especially when you attempt to justify it on the absurd grounds that it is at least as political/intimidatory/sinister as a KKK outfit. And in the original discussion I pointed out how the woman was prepared to undergo a security and identity check from a female security guard - to allay any potential risks on that front. And in case you forgot the original story - she wasn't even going to take the stand - merely wanted to be in the room to support her husband.

Way to mis the point Gandalf. Let me go back to my previous phrasing: in a courtroom, you have the right to sit down and shut up. Given that, don't you think it's a little hysterical to equate a courtroom ban with a nationwide ban?

Excuse me, FD, you just equated a nationwide ban with a courtroom ban.

But I'm curious. Why, exactly, do you want a courtroom ban? You haven't said.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #83 - Aug 21^st, 2018 at 9:27am

freediver wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 5:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 9:45am:

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

We ban alcohol all the time FD. And usually for good reasons. The burqa is not a drug that numbs your inhibitions and can make you a danger to yourself and others. So really bad analogy there.

I think the main problem you have here is that you have no reasonable justification for banning the burqa in a courtroom - especially when you attempt to justify it on the absurd grounds that it is at least as political/intimidatory/sinister as a KKK outfit. And in the original discussion I pointed out how the woman was prepared to undergo a security and identity check from a female security guard - to allay any potential risks on that front. And in case you forgot the original story - she wasn't even going to take the stand - merely wanted to be in the room to support her husband.

Way to mis the point Gandalf. Let me go back to my previous phrasing: in a courtroom, you have the right to sit down and shut up. Given that, don't you think it's a little hysterical to equate a courtroom ban with a nationwide ban?

Now your verbling me.

You support banning the burqa. That doesn't mean a nationwide ban, I never said it did. What particular settings you advocate this ban doesn't change the essential point that you support banning it.

Moreover you have fumbled badly at attempting to justify this ban - you've gone from 'you have the right to sit down and shut up in a courtroom' (which if course is completely nonsensical to the question of whether a burqa should be allowed - given that a burqa clad woman will almost certainly do nothing but sit down and shut up), to the most inappropriate analogy with having a piss up in the courtroom. And now it seems you're back to your "sit down and shut up" non-argument - coupled with a nice strawman.

You are all over the shot FD, thats the key point here. I suspect thats why you are being so precious about being called out on wanting bans. No freedom warrior would feel uncomfortable for supporting bans where there is a legitimate public safety issue at stake (bike helmets in a bank for example), but when they dogmatically call for bans without any good reason for it, then not surprisingly cognitive dissonance will set in. Hence all the incoherent flailing.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #84 - Aug 21^st, 2018 at 5:58pm Quote: You support banning the burqa. That doesn't mean a nationwide ban, I never said it did. Would you agree that it is misleading to accuse someone of supporting a ban on something when it only applies in the context of a courtroom?
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Mattyfisk

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #85 - Aug 21^st, 2018 at 11:58pm

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2018 at 5:58pm:

Quote:

You support banning the burqa. That doesn't mean a nationwide ban, I never said it did.

Would you agree that it is misleading to accuse someone of supporting a ban on something when it only applies in the context of a courtroom?

Why in a courtroom, FD? We'll need to flesh out the context.

I'm sure you wouldn't want G putting words into your mouth here, would you agree?

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Frank

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #86 - Aug 26^th, 2018 at 3:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 21^st, 2018 at 9:27am:

freediver wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 5:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 20^th, 2018 at 9:45am:

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2018 at 7:07pm:

I'm assuming you have no issue with people being banned from turning up with a carton and having a bit of a pissup while court is in session. Is the burka restriction the only courthouse restriction you have an issue with?

We ban alcohol all the time FD. And usually for good reasons. The burqa is not a drug that numbs your inhibitions and can make you a danger to yourself and others. So really bad analogy there.

I think the main problem you have here is that you have no reasonable justification for banning the burqa in a courtroom - especially when you attempt to justify it on the absurd grounds that it is at least as political/intimidatory/sinister as a KKK outfit. And in the original discussion I pointed out how the woman was prepared to undergo a security and identity check from a female security guard - to allay any potential risks on that front. And in case you forgot the original story - she wasn't even going to take the stand - merely wanted to be in the room to support her husband.

Way to mis the point Gandalf. Let me go back to my previous phrasing: in a courtroom, you have the right to sit down and shut up. Given that, don't you think it's a little hysterical to equate a courtroom ban with a nationwide ban?

Now your verbling me.

You support banning the burqa. That doesn't mean a nationwide ban, I never said it did. What particular settings you advocate this ban doesn't change the essential point that you support banning it.

Moreover you have fumbled badly at attempting to justify this ban - you've gone from 'you have the right to sit down and shut up in a courtroom' (which if course is completely nonsensical to the question of whether a burqa should be allowed - given that a burqa clad woman will almost certainly do nothing but sit down and shut up), to the most inappropriate analogy with having a piss up in the courtroom. And now it seems you're back to your "sit down and shut up" non-argument - coupled with a nice strawman.

You are all over the shot FD, thats the key point here. I suspect thats why you are being so precious about being called out on wanting bans. No freedom warrior would feel uncomfortable for supporting bans where there is a legitimate public safety issue at stake (bike helmets in a bank for example), but when they dogmatically call for bans without any good reason for it, then not surprisingly cognitive dissonance will set in. Hence all the incoherent flailing.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #87 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 11:12am

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2018 at 5:58pm:

Quote:

You support banning the burqa. That doesn't mean a nationwide ban, I never said it did.

Would you agree that it is misleading to accuse someone of supporting a ban on something when it only applies in the context of a courtroom?

The question is, why would it only apply to a courtroom? There is no reason why the incoherent flailings that passes for your justifications wouldn't equally apply to any number of other settings. Its not like you have said anything that is unique to a courtroom - only have the right to sit down and shut up, it could be mistaken for political activism and whatever other incoherent thought bubbles you come up with - not only do they not justify a ban in a courtroom (a burqa clad woman can sit down and shut up with a burqa, can be non-political-activist while wearing a burqa), these anti-freedom principles you allude to are in no way restricted to a courtroom setting. I've asked you many times what other settings you would support dictating to women what they can and can't wear. You never responded. Presumably if you can support this ban with such a vague and incoherent justification - you would support others. It seems to me the justification is secondary to the principle of banning for the sake of banning.

Either way, lets settle with you support banning the burqa - without any reasonable justification.

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« Last Edit: Aug 31^st, 2018 at 11:21am by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #88 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 12:44pm

Because it might intimidate witnesses to have masked people in the gallery.

If you are going to rant about my inability to justify my position, don't you think you ought to ask me to justify my position first?

Would you agree that it is misleading to accuse someone of supporting a ban on something when it only applies in the context of a courtroom?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #89 - Aug 31^st, 2018 at 1:04pm

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 12:44pm:

If you are going to rant about my inability to justify my position, don't you think you ought to ask me to justify my position first?

No. The coherency and legitimacy of your own arguments are entirely dependent on whether or not you can offer an adequate rationale and justification for them - not on whether or not I ask you to justify them.

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2018 at 12:44pm:

Because it might intimidate witnesses to have masked people in the gallery.

a completely irrational and baseless proposition. You may as well say the same for people who turn up with red ties or sunglasses. No wonder you felt the need to draw a moral equivalency with the KKK and run with some ridiculous political activism angle before.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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