Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print
Iron Law of Oligarchy (Read 2097 times)
Ajax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


CO2 has never controlled
temperature on Earth

Posts: 7354
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #45 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 11:50am:
Quote:
Our political system bares the influence of the oligarchy the greatest scar imo opinion being the two party system


We have a two party system because the people choose it every 3 or 4 years.

Quote:
Throughout history they have always tried to usurp the government


They were the government throughout most of history.


When I said this might inspire people to have a look at what they believe in, this didn't mean you FD.

You're a disciple and will go to the grave with these convictions even if they reduce you to squalor............. Kiss
Back to top
 

1. "There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than the carbon tax." Ajax
2. “Scratch the average homosexual and you will find a pedophile" Kevin Bishop (homosexual)
 
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #46 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 9:04am:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:53pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:08pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:47pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:14pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Sure, so long as you are clear about it. This entire theory appears to be about shifting goal posts. Would you like to have another crack at explaining it? Assume I still know what representative democracy is.


My view is that representative democracy is oligarchical in nature, and therefore cannot be accurately termed as 'democracy' in the traditional sense of the word.


Is it oligarchical because it is representative?


It's oligarchical because there's an oligarchy.


So the whole theory is just a bit of a wank with the definitions?


I'm not sure, FD. You tell me. Do you consider representative democracy to be an oligarchy? Is the term representative democracy just a smoke screen for oligarchy??


I don't really care whether it is an oligarchy or not. Whether it is democratic actually means something.


Are you then saying that you accept oligarchy as Iron Law in large modernised nation states? Considering that you don't 'really care whether it is an oligarchy or not'.


If you can interpret "bit of a wank with the definitions" as accept, sure.


So, what did you mean by I don't care whether it is an oligarchy or not???


Like I explained, whether it is democratic has meaning. Whether it is an oligarchy tells us nothing, except how you define oligarchy.


Whether it is an oligarchy tells us that it is an oligarchy. Elected representatives who are part of an oligarchy is still the oligarchy. It's just more democratic than an unelected oligarchy.
Back to top
 

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 42009
I like fish
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #47 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:42pm
 
Quote:
Whether it is an oligarchy tells us that it is an oligarchy


Brilliant insight there Auggie.

Quote:
When I said this might inspire people to have a look at what they believe in, this didn't mean you FD.


You have failed spectacularly to convince me that society was always a democracy, valliantly fending off an oligarchy from a hostile takeover. But don't let this stop you chanting your mantra.
Back to top
 

It's God's job to forgive terrorists; it's our job to arrange the meeting.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
issuevoter
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5486
The Great State of Mind
Gender: male
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #48 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:46pm
 
This discussion is getting ridiculous. Its nothing more than a "Deep State" conspiracy theory. Here we have claims that Australia is governed by an oligarchy, and we are offered such groups as the Liberal Party and Labor Party as "proof" of the claims. I think a lot of people would need an explanation of how these Parties form an oligarchy. Compulsory voting is an Australian historical idiosyncrasy. The major parties do not force it on us. The Law does.
Back to top
 

The West is not the intentional enemy of Islam, but it should be.
 
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #49 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 1:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:42pm:
Brilliant insight there Auggie.


Yet you seem to be arguing that representative democracy is not oligarchical. Is it oligarchical or not??
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:09pm by Auggie »  

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #50 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:06pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:46pm:
This discussion is getting ridiculous. Its nothing more than a "Deep State" conspiracy theory. Here we have claims that Australia is governed by an oligarchy, and we are offered such groups as the Liberal Party and Labor Party as "proof" of the claims. I think a lot of people would need an explanation of how these Parties form an oligarchy. Compulsory voting is an Australian historical idiosyncrasy. The major parties do not force it on us. The Law does.


Hold on, I never said anything about a deep state, which is a completely different theory.

The Iron Law of Oligarchy states that 'oligarchy' is inevitable when large organisations are formed. When I talk about oligarchy, I'm not talking about it in the sense of a Russian oligarchy, I'm talking about it in the actual definition of the word 'rule by the few'. It is a fact that the decisions of the Commonwealth government are made by the Cabinet, which consists of 20 - 30 or so individuals, not to mention other elite interests. Those 100s of people are the oligarchy because they are 'few' in number. Just because they are elected, doesn't mean that they are not an oligarchy.

The Iron Law of Oligarchy also asserts that certain behaviours that we experience from the political class, such as: self-interest; high pay packets; loyalty to party; concealment of truths; etc. are all behaviours that are instinctive to an oligarchical form of government. The Green's recent failure to adequately deal with sexual harassment claims is a telling example of how the oligarchy 'within' the Greens party behaves - by protecting the interests of the ruling elite within the party at the expense of the rank and file members.

What really annoys me, issue, is when people  on this Forum or elsewhere complain that politicians are nothing but leeches and should show more restraint in self-interest when in actual fact we tacitly support oligarchy by supporting the current system of representative democracy. Now, it may be the case that what we have now is the 'worst among all governments, except for all the others' but then we as the people should accept without complaint the deficiencies of the system.
Back to top
 

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
Bias_2012
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2709
Gender: male
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #51 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:46pm:
This discussion is getting ridiculous. Its nothing more than a "Deep State" conspiracy theory. Here we have claims that Australia is governed by an oligarchy, and we are offered such groups as the Liberal Party and Labor Party as "proof" of the claims. I think a lot of people would need an explanation of how these Parties form an oligarchy. Compulsory voting is an Australian historical idiosyncrasy. The major parties do not force it on us. The Law does.



And who made compulsory voting into law? The Libs and Labs did

As I was saying before, the Libs and Labs with their bipartisan policies makes them a two party preferred duopoly. Bipartisan policies are set and are excluded from the normal democratic process. Try and get them changed, I wish you luck. They are the work of a two party oligarchy. They're locked in, one party won't change those policies unless the other party gives the ok. There's no chance of that happening

oligarchy |ˈäliˌgärkē; ˈōli-|
noun ( pl. -chies)
a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution
• a state governed by such a group
• government by such a group. 
Back to top
 

Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 42009
I like fish
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #52 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:43pm
 
Auggie wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 1:58pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:42pm:
Brilliant insight there Auggie.


Yet you seem to be arguing that representative democracy is not oligarchical.


That's what you got from "I don't care"?
Back to top
 

It's God's job to forgive terrorists; it's our job to arrange the meeting.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #53 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 1:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 1:58pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:42pm:
Brilliant insight there Auggie.


Yet you seem to be arguing that representative democracy is not oligarchical.


That's what you got from "I don't care"?


Why are you avoiding this question: "do you believe that representative democracy is oligarchical? Yes or no?" Simple question.
Back to top
 

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 42009
I like fish
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #54 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:00pm
 
I suppose it depends how you define oligarchy.

FYI, I don't particularly care how you define oligarchy.

Do you think they called it an "iron law" to mask the fact it is nothing more than a tautology?
Back to top
 

It's God's job to forgive terrorists; it's our job to arrange the meeting.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #55 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:00pm:
I suppose it depends how you define oligarchy.

FYI, I don't particularly care how you define oligarchy.

Do you think they called it an "iron law" to mask the fact it is nothing more than a tautology?


You seem to be cleverly obfuscating, FD. On the one hand, you refuse to state if representative democracy is an oligarchy (and you don't care how I define it), and second you then seem to be saying that the Iron Law of Oligarchy is a given and is inevitable.

Is this you just 'dribbling at the mouth'? Or can you give a straight answer to the question?
Back to top
 

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 42009
I like fish
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #56 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:05pm
 
Quote:
you then seem to be saying that the Iron Law of Oligarchy is a given and is inevitable


"a bit of a wank with the definitions"

"nothing more than a tautology"

Is that not straight enough for you? Do you disagree?

Would you like to have another go at explaining it? Perhaps you can make sense after all.
Back to top
 

It's God's job to forgive terrorists; it's our job to arrange the meeting.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #57 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Is that not straight enough for you?


No, it isn't. Perhaps you'd like to be 'straighter'.

It's OK I won't be offended.
Back to top
 

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 42009
I like fish
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #58 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:08pm
 
Are you asking me to dumb it down even more?
Back to top
 

It's God's job to forgive terrorists; it's our job to arrange the meeting.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


It's War

Posts: 6774
Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #59 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
Are you asking me to dumb it down even more?


Yes, sir, I am.
Back to top
 

I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print