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Iron Law of Oligarchy (Read 2098 times)
Bias_2012
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #30 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:21pm
 
Gnads wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:10pm:
There are winners & their are losers.

Labor won the rest lost.



Yes there are losers the way things are now, but under a compulsory voting system, there should no losers

There should be at least some concessions for those who voted other than Labor

Everyone who votes is under duress to do so, whether they are willing to vote or not, that's the nature of compulsion, an order from the top to perform a task or you'll be punished. We are still in the days of the convicts

Compulsion without some reward for the losers is an issue that will looked at in the future, I'm sure of that

Myself and thousands of other blokes weren't recompensed for the damaging effects of compulsory military conscription, damage to our working careers, damage to relationships, emotional and psychological problems etc. Damages caused by an oligarchy supported by the rest of the community who couldn't give a damn

Now compulsory voting doesn't necessarily do that sort of damage, but it can if a voter never gets a look in, never gets a rep in parliament. But if they never get a rep, it would be wise to think of a way they could be rewarded for their effort, in an ideological way ... or maybe pay all voters for their effort, if it's good enough for the AEC to pay winning candidates, it's good enough to pay voters for turning up under duress
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #31 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:24pm
 
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:14pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Sure, so long as you are clear about it. This entire theory appears to be about shifting goal posts. Would you like to have another crack at explaining it? Assume I still know what representative democracy is.


My view is that representative democracy is oligarchical in nature, and therefore cannot be accurately termed as 'democracy' in the traditional sense of the word.


Is it oligarchical because it is representative?


It's oligarchical because there's an oligarchy.


So the whole theory is just a bit of a wank with the definitions?


I'm not sure, FD. You tell me. Do you consider representative democracy to be an oligarchy? Is the term representative democracy just a smoke screen for oligarchy??


I don't really care whether it is an oligarchy or not. Whether it is democratic actually means something.
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #32 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:14pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Sure, so long as you are clear about it. This entire theory appears to be about shifting goal posts. Would you like to have another crack at explaining it? Assume I still know what representative democracy is.


My view is that representative democracy is oligarchical in nature, and therefore cannot be accurately termed as 'democracy' in the traditional sense of the word.


Is it oligarchical because it is representative?


It's oligarchical because there's an oligarchy.


So the whole theory is just a bit of a wank with the definitions?


I'm not sure, FD. You tell me. Do you consider representative democracy to be an oligarchy? Is the term representative democracy just a smoke screen for oligarchy??


I don't really care whether it is an oligarchy or not. Whether it is democratic actually means something.


Are you then saying that you accept oligarchy as Iron Law in large modernised nation states? Considering that you don't 'really care whether it is an oligarchy or not'.
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #33 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:08pm
 
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:47pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:14pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Sure, so long as you are clear about it. This entire theory appears to be about shifting goal posts. Would you like to have another crack at explaining it? Assume I still know what representative democracy is.


My view is that representative democracy is oligarchical in nature, and therefore cannot be accurately termed as 'democracy' in the traditional sense of the word.


Is it oligarchical because it is representative?


It's oligarchical because there's an oligarchy.


So the whole theory is just a bit of a wank with the definitions?


I'm not sure, FD. You tell me. Do you consider representative democracy to be an oligarchy? Is the term representative democracy just a smoke screen for oligarchy??


I don't really care whether it is an oligarchy or not. Whether it is democratic actually means something.


Are you then saying that you accept oligarchy as Iron Law in large modernised nation states? Considering that you don't 'really care whether it is an oligarchy or not'.


If you can interpret "bit of a wank with the definitions" as accept, sure.
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #34 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:50pm
 
I have read the OP and all the replies up to this point, and I don't agree with the original premise. Its positively Kaiser era German. Using the present Australian Commonwealth as the example, we do not have "Iron law of Oligarchy."

Its true that some personal circumstances are more likely than others to produce politicians, but that's a long way from what Michels was describing.

I don't think anyone ever denied that democracy is a matter of degree. To have everyone voting on everything would be stupid, but that does not mean Australia is run by a political oligarchy. If someone wants to argue there is an economic oligarchy, I might entertain the idea. But that too, is not the same as an outright political governing class in Australia.
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #35 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:52pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:50pm:
I have read the OP and all the replies up to this point, and I don't agree with the original premise. Its positively Kaiser era German. Using the present Australian Commonwealth as the example, we do not have "Iron law of Oligarchy."

Its true that some personal circumstances are more likely than others to produce politicians, but that's a long way from what Michels was describing.

I don't think anyone ever denied that democracy is a matter of degree. To have everyone voting on everything would be stupid, but that does not mean Australia is run by a political oligarchy. If someone wants to argue there is an economic oligarchy, I might entertain the idea. But that too, is not the same as an outright political governing class in Australia.


So, you don't agree that there's an elite class of people who make decisions on the country? Are you saying that the Australian government is not an oligarchy?
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I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

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Auggie
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #36 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:08pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:47pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:14pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Sure, so long as you are clear about it. This entire theory appears to be about shifting goal posts. Would you like to have another crack at explaining it? Assume I still know what representative democracy is.


My view is that representative democracy is oligarchical in nature, and therefore cannot be accurately termed as 'democracy' in the traditional sense of the word.


Is it oligarchical because it is representative?


It's oligarchical because there's an oligarchy.


So the whole theory is just a bit of a wank with the definitions?


I'm not sure, FD. You tell me. Do you consider representative democracy to be an oligarchy? Is the term representative democracy just a smoke screen for oligarchy??


I don't really care whether it is an oligarchy or not. Whether it is democratic actually means something.


Are you then saying that you accept oligarchy as Iron Law in large modernised nation states? Considering that you don't 'really care whether it is an oligarchy or not'.


If you can interpret "bit of a wank with the definitions" as accept, sure.


So, what did you mean by I don't care whether it is an oligarchy or not???
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I will no longer pursue a policy of appeasement. To all the bigots, homophobes, and Islamophobes at OzPol...

CAESAR IS MARCHING WITH HIS LEGIONS.
 
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Bias_2012
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #37 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 12:19am
 
issuevoter wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:50pm:
Using the present Australian Commonwealth as the example, we do not have "Iron law of Oligarchy."



It depends on what you mean by "the present Australian Commonwealth" for this topic

But it could be argued that all the Lib Lab by-partisan policies represent iron law from the two party preferred major parties, which combined as they are on those policies, make those parties one single oligarchy

The term "Two Party Preferred" didn't come into existence for nothing
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issuevoter
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #38 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:44am
 
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:52pm:
issuevoter wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:50pm:
I have read the OP and all the replies up to this point, and I don't agree with the original premise. Its positively Kaiser era German. Using the present Australian Commonwealth as the example, we do not have "Iron law of Oligarchy."

Its true that some personal circumstances are more likely than others to produce politicians, but that's a long way from what Michels was describing.

I don't think anyone ever denied that democracy is a matter of degree. To have everyone voting on everything would be stupid, but that does not mean Australia is run by a political oligarchy. If someone wants to argue there is an economic oligarchy, I might entertain the idea. But that too, is not the same as an outright political governing class in Australia.


So, you don't agree that there's an elite class of people who make decisions on the country? Are you saying that the Australian government is not an oligarchy?


Please note my highlighted paragraph. Of course, it will be easier for some people to get into administration, but that is a lot different to an oligarchy. Like most Western democracies, the terms "leader" and "statesmen" are nothing more than hyperbole. We have politicians and bureaucrats, and their positions are all subject to media scrutiny and bias, which sways public opinion. There are no political dynasties in Australia. Collusion that tends toward monopoly and oligarchy are at present inhibited by our imperfect system. Michels' world was that of aristocratic Europe.
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Gnads
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #39 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 8:20am
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:21pm:
Gnads wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:10pm:
There are winners & their are losers.

Labor won the rest lost.



Yes there are losers the way things are now, but under a compulsory voting system, there should no losers

There should be at least some concessions for those who voted other than Labor

Everyone who votes is under duress to do so, whether they are willing to vote or not, that's the nature of compulsion, an order from the top to perform a task or you'll be punished. We are still in the days of the convicts

Compulsion without some reward for the losers is an issue that will looked at in the future, I'm sure of that

Myself and thousands of other blokes weren't recompensed for the damaging effects of compulsory military conscription, damage to our working careers, damage to relationships, emotional and psychological problems etc. Damages caused by an oligarchy supported by the rest of the community who couldn't give a damn

Now compulsory voting doesn't necessarily do that sort of damage, but it can if a voter never gets a look in, never gets a rep in parliament. But if they never get a rep, it would be wise to think of a way they could be rewarded for their effort, in an ideological way ... or maybe pay all voters for their effort, if it's good enough for the AEC to pay winning candidates, it's good enough to pay voters for turning up under duress


What a load of melodramatic tosh. Duress? Get paid to turn out to a polling both for 15 minutes of their life?

You sound like an Irish Union sub -branch committee discussing a return to work ......

and after a lot of tooing & froing a motion is put that to decide if they go back to work .... they will throw a brick up in the air ....

if it stays up in the air they'll go to work on a Wednesday...

and a voice up the back(Bias) says .... "What? ... every bloody Wednesday?
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Gnads
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #40 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 8:28am
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:21pm:
Gnads wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:10pm:
There are winners & their are losers.

Labor won the rest lost.



Yes there are losers the way things are now, but under a compulsory voting system, there should no losers

There should be at least some concessions for those who voted other than Labor

Everyone who votes is under duress to do so, whether they are willing to vote or not, that's the nature of compulsion, an order from the top to perform a task or you'll be punished. We are still in the days of the convicts

Compulsion without some reward for the losers is an issue that will looked at in the future, I'm sure of that

Myself and thousands of other blokes weren't recompensed for the damaging effects of compulsory military conscription, damage to our working careers, damage to relationships, emotional and psychological problems etc. Damages caused by an oligarchy supported by the rest of the community who couldn't give a damn

Now compulsory voting doesn't necessarily do that sort of damage, but it can if a voter never gets a look in, never gets a rep in parliament. But if they never get a rep, it would be wise to think of a way they could be rewarded for their effort, in an ideological way ... or maybe pay all voters for their effort, if it's good enough for the AEC to pay winning candidates, it's good enough to pay voters for turning up under duress


That's far from the truth ....

as for you statement .. "if a voter never get's a look in ... never gets a rep in parliament" ...

join the club of many multitudes of people...

it's not about getting a turn because you compete...

and the allocation of money given to candidates is to assist those who are ordinary Joes having a go in paying for the necessities to run a campaign.

I find most of your suggestions to be ridiculous.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #41 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 9:04am
 
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:53pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 11:08pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:47pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Auggie wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 6:14pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Sure, so long as you are clear about it. This entire theory appears to be about shifting goal posts. Would you like to have another crack at explaining it? Assume I still know what representative democracy is.


My view is that representative democracy is oligarchical in nature, and therefore cannot be accurately termed as 'democracy' in the traditional sense of the word.


Is it oligarchical because it is representative?


It's oligarchical because there's an oligarchy.


So the whole theory is just a bit of a wank with the definitions?


I'm not sure, FD. You tell me. Do you consider representative democracy to be an oligarchy? Is the term representative democracy just a smoke screen for oligarchy??


I don't really care whether it is an oligarchy or not. Whether it is democratic actually means something.


Are you then saying that you accept oligarchy as Iron Law in large modernised nation states? Considering that you don't 'really care whether it is an oligarchy or not'.


If you can interpret "bit of a wank with the definitions" as accept, sure.


So, what did you mean by I don't care whether it is an oligarchy or not???


Like I explained, whether it is democratic has meaning. Whether it is an oligarchy tells us nothing, except how you define oligarchy.
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Bias_2012
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #42 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 10:58am
 
Gnads wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 8:20am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 10:21pm:
Gnads wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:10pm:
There are winners & their are losers.

Labor won the rest lost.



Yes there are losers the way things are now, but under a compulsory voting system, there should no losers

There should be at least some concessions for those who voted other than Labor

Everyone who votes is under duress to do so, whether they are willing to vote or not, that's the nature of compulsion, an order from the top to perform a task or you'll be punished. We are still in the days of the convicts

Compulsion without some reward for the losers is an issue that will looked at in the future, I'm sure of that

Myself and thousands of other blokes weren't recompensed for the damaging effects of compulsory military conscription, damage to our working careers, damage to relationships, emotional and psychological problems etc. Damages caused by an oligarchy supported by the rest of the community who couldn't give a damn

Now compulsory voting doesn't necessarily do that sort of damage, but it can if a voter never gets a look in, never gets a rep in parliament. But if they never get a rep, it would be wise to think of a way they could be rewarded for their effort, in an ideological way ... or maybe pay all voters for their effort, if it's good enough for the AEC to pay winning candidates, it's good enough to pay voters for turning up under duress


What a load of melodramatic tosh. Duress? Get paid to turn out to a polling both for 15 minutes of their life?

You sound like an Irish Union sub -branch committee discussing a return to work ......

and after a lot of tooing & froing a motion is put that to decide if they go back to work .... they will throw a brick up in the air ....

if it stays up in the air they'll go to work on a Wednesday...

and a voice up the back(Bias) says .... "What? ... every bloody Wednesday?




Compulsion means we are automatically under duress. Attending a polling booth is an order from the top, or we'll be punished, a punishment that in the worst case scenario, we lose our homes. The punishment progresses from a simple fine, to automatic loss of drivers license, to garnisheeing money from bank account, to selling your house to recover the fine. That's what happens if you're unable or unwilling to pay the fine

!5 minutes of my life? you got that wrong. There are never polling booths in my village. Voting requires a special trip to a town miles away costing me fuel, vehicle wear and tear driving on dirt roads and hours of my time

The Lib Lab oligarchy sure know how to give people the runs
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #43 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 11:42am
 
The oligarchy have been with us since civilisation began and have had a power struggle with every government that ever existed. Our political system bares the influence of the oligarchy the greatest scar imo opinion being the two party system, divide and conquer for the people as one would be a fearsome creature to behold.

Throughout history they have always tried to usurp the government of the day with any measure including bribes, coin and implement laws that would see them thrive above laws for the commonwealth.

From my understanding it goes back a long long way from the assassinations of Julius Caesar and Abraham Lincoln to today, what did these two historical figures have in common, they both got rid of the money lenders (bankers) of their day printing the money for the nation and delegated this responsibility to the government of the day.

After all why have a private company printing and lending money to the government with interest when the government can print as much money as it wants with NO interest.

They have swindled Neo liberalism into power at every opportunity, back in 1913 they convinced the US government to privatise the Federal Reserve Bank on the premise that there would be no booms and busts, until the great depression of the 1930 which saw neoliberalism thrown out in favour of Keynesian capitalism, established by John Maynard Keynes at Cambridge University.

To put it in nut shell Keynesian economics has the government as the head of the state and corporations are beneath it, the government intervenes in the economics of the day and passes laws for the survival and wellbeing of the commonwealth, the Nation, not just a few rich greedy leaches.

Under Keynesian economics the government owns and controls essential services, the government controls banks and other influential corporations and even has a bank of its own, the government can own the wealth of the nation for the benefit of the commonwealth.

Milton Friedman economist at the University of Chicago and the father of modern day neo liberalism started fighting against Keynesian economics from the 1950s and through his disciples implemented his economic theories in South America in the late 1960s early 1970s of course no sane population would accept so radical 180 degree turn in the economic fabric and so these states had to be run by dictators, he then studied the effects of his hypothesis.

The theory behind Neo liberalism was introduced and implemented in the west through Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and for us here in Australia the Hawk Keating government and sadly its the system we have today.

Im not saying the Keynesian economic model is perfect but imo much preferred amongst the majority of the people if they ever take the time and effort to differentiate between the two.

So when we say the oligarchy it has a much deeper meaning than wasted votes at the ballot box, corrupt politicians, democracy etc.

Hopefully this might inspire people that think any other system bar the neo liberals is a form of communism to have a deeper look at their convictions.
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Re: Iron Law of Oligarchy
Reply #44 - Aug 4th, 2018 at 11:50am
 
Quote:
Our political system bares the influence of the oligarchy the greatest scar imo opinion being the two party system


We have a two party system because the people choose it every 3 or 4 years.

Quote:
Throughout history they have always tried to usurp the government


They were the government throughout most of history.
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