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The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree (Read 510 times)
NorthOfNorth
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The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:23am
 
Another poignant (and depressing) point made on Bill Maher’s Realtime by George Will…

“Under the appointments clause of the US Constitution, as developed by Supreme Court case law, a principal officer of the government and by the power he’s wielding and the people he’s subordinate to, Mueller qualifies as a principal officer;

All principal officers according to the Supreme Court must be nominated by the president and confirmed by the Senate, which he has not done.

Therefore, it is possible that a year from now a case comes to the Supreme Court, brought by Manafort or someone else, that says – and these are the Supreme Court’s words in cases like this –

All the subpoenas, the indictments and the convictions and the sentences brought about by this man are the ‘fruit of the poisonous tree’ “.

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Unforgiven
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #1 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29am
 
If that is so Trump should be impeached for incompetence in allowing it to happen.

I note no evidence is provided other than hearsay from a right-wing source.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #2 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 7:01am
 
Unforgiven wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29am:
If that is so Trump should be impeached for incompetence in allowing it to happen.

I note no evidence is provided other than hearsay from a right-wing source.

Just to be clear, I'm not of the 'right wing' nor in any sense a Trump supporter...

But I don't see the point of being blind to the possibility of a bad outcome (i.e. Trump's survival)

However, I believe, impeachment proceedings in the house against Trump are more likely to happen than not, but, if impeached, unfortunately he will more likely not be convicted in the Senate.

The Trump fiasco has revealed the hole-in-the-heart of the institution of an executive presidency.

Another depressing point... What if the rise of Trump has merely paved the way for an even more dictatorial and dangerous president... One that finds a way to 'prorogue'  Congress and 'suspend' the Constitution using people-power to silence congressmen and Senators (by any means necessary) .
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SadKangaroo
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #3 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 10:40am
 
It is the first legitimate criticism of the investigation and does give Trump a way out even if a smoking gun is found.

He may escape accountability yet again.

It is a very depressing thought.
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longweekend58
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #4 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm
 
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #5 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:28pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?

Not so idiotic...

I'm told the whole thing hinges on whether Robert Mueller is an 'inferior officer' and not subject to the appointments clause of the Constitution or whether he is a 'principal officer' and therefore subject to the clause.

It's going to be (if nothing else) the next flash-pan distraction.
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #6 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:34pm
 
This issue is not being addressed by the mainstream media which means that it is probably just another Trump diversion to cloud the demented minds of Trumpeteers.
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longweekend58
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #7 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:37pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?

Not so idiotic...

I'm told the whole thing hinges on whether Robert Mueller is an 'inferior officer' and not subject to the appointments clause of the Constitution or whether he is a 'principal officer' and therefore subject to the clause.

It's going to be (if nothing else) the next flash-pan distraction.


PRECEDENCE is a core component of the law. There have been many Special Counsels and none have had to be confirmed - precedence. Also, Special counsel is subject to the AG and Deputy AG and therefore clearly not a principal officer in any way.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Panther
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #8 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 7:21pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:37pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?

Not so idiotic...

I'm told the whole thing hinges on whether Robert Mueller is an 'inferior officer' and not subject to the appointments clause of the Constitution or whether he is a 'principal officer' and therefore subject to the clause.

It's going to be (if nothing else) the next flash-pan distraction.


PRECEDENCE is a core component of the law. There have been many Special Counsels and none have had to be confirmed - precedence. Also, Special counsel is subject to the AG and Deputy AG and therefore clearly not a principal officer in any way.


Correct!

Yer learnin' boy, slowly but surely, yer learnin'! ...

8% out of the way (a very important 8% nevertheless)......only 92% more to learn!!
...
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #9 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 8:16pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:37pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?

Not so idiotic...

I'm told the whole thing hinges on whether Robert Mueller is an 'inferior officer' and not subject to the appointments clause of the Constitution or whether he is a 'principal officer' and therefore subject to the clause.

It's going to be (if nothing else) the next flash-pan distraction.


PRECEDENCE is a core component of the law. There have been many Special Counsels and none have had to be confirmed - precedence. Also, Special counsel is subject to the AG and Deputy AG and therefore clearly not a principal officer in any way.

And never-mind the 'I've gotta live in this town' moral dimension!



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longweekend58
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #10 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 11:02pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:37pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?

Not so idiotic...

I'm told the whole thing hinges on whether Robert Mueller is an 'inferior officer' and not subject to the appointments clause of the Constitution or whether he is a 'principal officer' and therefore subject to the clause.

It's going to be (if nothing else) the next flash-pan distraction.


PRECEDENCE is a core component of the law. There have been many Special Counsels and none have had to be confirmed - precedence. Also, Special counsel is subject to the AG and Deputy AG and therefore clearly not a principal officer in any way.

And never-mind the 'I've gotta live in this town' moral dimension!






Im not sure what you mean, but the argument that a special counsel would EVER need to be confirmed is ludicrous. What chance is there that a 60 vote majority in the senate would EVER confirm ANY special counsel? NONE.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
Reply #11 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 1:52am
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 11:02pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:37pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
except that every singe Special Counsel prior to Mueller has not had to be confirmed. It is an idiotic statement. Is it not the very point of law enforcement to be independent?

Not so idiotic...

I'm told the whole thing hinges on whether Robert Mueller is an 'inferior officer' and not subject to the appointments clause of the Constitution or whether he is a 'principal officer' and therefore subject to the clause.

It's going to be (if nothing else) the next flash-pan distraction.


PRECEDENCE is a core component of the law. There have been many Special Counsels and none have had to be confirmed - precedence. Also, Special counsel is subject to the AG and Deputy AG and therefore clearly not a principal officer in any way.

And never-mind the 'I've gotta live in this town' moral dimension!






Im not sure what you mean, but the argument that a special counsel would EVER need to be confirmed is ludicrous. What chance is there that a 60 vote majority in the senate would EVER confirm ANY special counsel? NONE.

I'm shouting out to Maher (channeling his style of humour).

He let George Will off the hook on a number of points.

Like Will's reference to Woodrow Wilson's carping about the Constitutional restrictions on a US president's powers  -100 years ago - to explain the roots of Trump's own wishful ideas of usurping the constitution. Will could have referred to Roosevelt as an arguably 'better' example of a president stretching the limits of presidential power, but then Will is clearly not a Trump supporter (and maybe a Roosevelt admirer so didn't want to sully the big man's name), The whole comment was a peevish dig.

In any case, leaving the blame at the democrats' feet for the nutjob roadshow that is the Trump administration, over a caustic statement made 100 years ago by a democratic president is like blaming Lincoln for Trump because he suspended habeas corpus.

The notion of the constitutionality of Mueller's appointment should have been challenged by now (at least to avoid wasting time and money thus avoiding potentially pointless lurid political pathos) if the notion had legs. Will would have known that (as should Maher).

On Will's caution over climate-change spending, he ignores the fact that clean energy production is obviously not a waste of money as it is achieving the objective and aiding the economy... Something, to be fair, Maher does pick up on.



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