Australian Politics Forum - Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan

Mr Hammer

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #45 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 6:29pm

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 6:20pm:

Afghanistan has been through 5 election cycles since the intervention.

And it will never get any better. They have a war culture. You can have one village hating another village 3kms away because a crappy motorbike was sold or not enough dowry was provided for a wedding. It's a rotten society from the ground up. I think they don't have enough to do.

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Bobby.

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #46 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 7:06pm

Gordon wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 5:44pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 5:25pm:

They should not have been there, in the first place. The Northern Alliance drove the Talibs (Scholars of Mohamed) out of Kabul. So far, so good. All the West needed to do was keep the NA armed, but George Bush needed to look tough with the US electorate after 911. And so Australia got roped into an unwinnable war. The difference between the rare atrocities committed by Australian troops and those committed by the Scholars of Mohamed is that civilised people abhor such conduct and deal with it, while the Scholars use atrocity as their prime strategy, and believe it is ordained by God.

After the 911, the US should have gone in with everything they had and given them 12 months of shock and awe, and killed any fighting age male that smelled like a Taliban, then got out.

As for changing hearts and minds, bugger that. They're culturally stone age. Leave them to their tribal squabbles and just drone strike anything that looks like a threat to western security.

No country ever won a war in Afghanistan.

The Russians proved that & then the silly West got involved.

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mozzaok

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #47 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 7:40pm

Howsabout declaring Saudi Arabia a terrorist state, and imposing sanctions where they are not allowed to sell their oil. That would be a great start.

As for soldiers in a war zone, well they should carry a thermos of tea and a pack of teddy bears, instead of weapons, and have a kumbaya sing song with any head chopping jihadist they encounter.

Ask any lefty, if we were just more understanding and nicer to them, they would ignore all the quranic verses calling for murder and death to infidels.

White male patriarchy is the real problem.
I mean western male patriarchy, of course.
As racist, racist, racist tells us, the tinted are noble of mind and spirit by definition.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #48 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 7:58pm

Unforgiven wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 10:15am:

The military doesn't recruit psychopaths - they recruit ordinary people, which is precisely why there is a high percentage of burn-out.

You've forfeited any right to comment with that ridiculous comment.

So, Grappler contends that military personnel are not psychopaths at the time of recruitment.

PTSD rate in the military is only 11-20%. That is not to say there aren't other undiagnosed or unrecognized psychiatric conditions in military personnel.

Not even a remote comparison... the rate of PTSD - around 30% in combat troops and that includes nearby ancillary troops as well - is generated (wait for it) as a RESULT of the exposure of otherwise civilised human beings to an uncivilised environment. It is a PSYCHOLOGICAL disorder created by environmental factors in otherwise normal human beings.

Psychiatric issues are rapidly discovered and weeded out, and nowhere more than in Special Forces, which, contrary to cafe gangster belief, rely on intelligence, composure, training, and teamwork and has no place for 'lone wolves'. NO psychopathic individual ever gets into Special Forces, and even if the shrinks miss them, which is unlikely, the sergeants sitting on a Selection Board will find them out... ye've my word on it.

Sometimes extraordinary measures are called for, usually in response to extreme actions on the part of an enemy - for example, the SS declared that they would take no Airborne prisoners if Europe was invaded, and the Hitlerjugend Division massacred Canadian prisoners as a matter of policy. The PAVN did the same, and Yon Islamites are noted for their barbarity towards prisoners.

There is no justification in such circumstances for not meting out the same in retaliation, and it is often the case that this can occur. US Airborne routinely refused to take SS prisoner, because the SS did it to them, often in horrifying ways, and neither did the Canadians after their experience in Normandy with Hitler's young murderers. In Vietnam, considering the massacre of wounded at Dak To by the PAVN, and atrocities committed by them even early in that war, it is no wonder that some US troops killed PAVN soldiers as a matter of course. The 101st Airborne had the same early on with captured wounded tortured to death, leading to PAVN prisoners being executed out of hand.

I've told you before, about the Ia Drang, the wounded to killed ratio for the Seventh Cavalry was extraordinary - for the simple reason that the PAVN/VC killed wounded out of hand.

There are no rules in a knife fight.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #49 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:03pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 7:58pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 10:15am:

The military doesn't recruit psychopaths - they recruit ordinary people, which is precisely why there is a high percentage of burn-out.

You've forfeited any right to comment with that ridiculous comment.

So, Grappler contends that military personnel are not psychopaths at the time of recruitment.

PTSD rate in the military is only 11-20%. That is not to say there aren't other undiagnosed or unrecognized psychiatric conditions in military personnel.

Not even a remote comparison... the rate of PTSD - around 30% in combat troops and that includes nearby ancillary troops as well - is generated (wait for it) as a RESULT of the exposure of otherwise civilised human beings to an uncivilised environment. It is a PSYCHOLOGICAL disorder created by environmental factors in otherwise normal human beings.

Psychiatric issues are rapidly discovered and weeded out, and nowhere more than in Special Forces, which, contrary to cafe gangster belief, rely on intelligence, composure, training, and teamwork and has no place for 'lone wolves'. NO psychopathic individual ever gets into Special Forces, and even if the shrinks miss them, which is unlikely, the sergeants sitting on a Selection Board will find them out... ye've my word on it.

Sometimes extraordinary measures are called for, usually in response to extreme actions on the part of an enemy - for example, the SS declared that they would take no Airborne prisoners if Europe was invaded, and the Hitlerjugend Division massacred Canadian prisoners as a matter of policy. The PAVN did the same, and Yon Islamites are noted for their barbarity towards prisoners.

There is no justification in such circumstances for not meting out the same in retaliation, and it is often the case that this can occur. US Airborne routinely refused to take SS prisoner, because the SS did it to them, often in horrifying ways, and neither did the Canadians after their experience in Normandy with Hitler's young murderers. In Vietnam, considering the massacred of wounded at Dak To by the PAVN, and atrocities committed by them even early in that war, it is no wonder that some US troops killed PAVN soldiers as a matter of course. The 101st Airborne had the same early on with captured wounded tortured to death, leading to PAVN prisoners being executed out of hand.

I've told you before, about the Ia Drang, the wounded to killed ratio for the Seventy Cavalry was extraordinary - for the simple reason that the PAVN/VC killed wounded out of hand.

There are no rules in a knife fight.

Back during the ww1 the blokes in France for instance would do a spell on the line and then go back to the rear and get on the grog and into the girls all in safety. It must be hard fighting those wars where there is no frontline and civilians/enemy all dress the same. Nowhere is safe. A soldier would have to be on edge 24/7. No wonder so many have come back suffering trauma. Continual stress.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #50 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:07pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:03pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 7:58pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 10:15am:

The military doesn't recruit psychopaths - they recruit ordinary people, which is precisely why there is a high percentage of burn-out.

You've forfeited any right to comment with that ridiculous comment.

So, Grappler contends that military personnel are not psychopaths at the time of recruitment.

PTSD rate in the military is only 11-20%. That is not to say there aren't other undiagnosed or unrecognized psychiatric conditions in military personnel.

Not even a remote comparison... the rate of PTSD - around 30% in combat troops and that includes nearby ancillary troops as well - is generated (wait for it) as a RESULT of the exposure of otherwise civilised human beings to an uncivilised environment. It is a PSYCHOLOGICAL disorder created by environmental factors in otherwise normal human beings.

Psychiatric issues are rapidly discovered and weeded out, and nowhere more than in Special Forces, which, contrary to cafe gangster belief, rely on intelligence, composure, training, and teamwork and has no place for 'lone wolves'. NO psychopathic individual ever gets into Special Forces, and even if the shrinks miss them, which is unlikely, the sergeants sitting on a Selection Board will find them out... ye've my word on it.

Sometimes extraordinary measures are called for, usually in response to extreme actions on the part of an enemy - for example, the SS declared that they would take no Airborne prisoners if Europe was invaded, and the Hitlerjugend Division massacred Canadian prisoners as a matter of policy. The PAVN did the same, and Yon Islamites are noted for their barbarity towards prisoners.

There is no justification in such circumstances for not meting out the same in retaliation, and it is often the case that this can occur. US Airborne routinely refused to take SS prisoner, because the SS did it to them, often in horrifying ways, and neither did the Canadians after their experience in Normandy with Hitler's young murderers. In Vietnam, considering the massacred of wounded at Dak To by the PAVN, and atrocities committed by them even early in that war, it is no wonder that some US troops killed PAVN soldiers as a matter of course. The 101st Airborne had the same early on with captured wounded tortured to death, leading to PAVN prisoners being executed out of hand.

I've told you before, about the Ia Drang, the wounded to killed ratio for the Seventy Cavalry was extraordinary - for the simple reason that the PAVN/VC killed wounded out of hand.

There are no rules in a knife fight.

Back during the ww1 the blokes in France for instance would do a spell on the line and then go back to the rear and get on the grog and into the girls all in safety. It must be hard fighting those wars where there is no frontline and civilians/enemy all dress the same. Nowhere is safe. A soldier would have to be on edge 24/7. No wonder so many have come back suffering trauma. Continual stress.

This is glossed over a lot - but part of the reason the Australian Corps was so successful in 1917-18 was that they were ruthless and bayoneted Germans out of hand. The 18th Battalion in particular was famous for a throat thrust, and thus the Germans often ran rather than face them.

That's what happens in wars. In WW II there were many charges of atrocities against Allied soldiers, but none was ever convicted. Compared to the atrocities of the Germans and Japanese they were nothing.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #51 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:14pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:07pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:03pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 7:58pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 10:15am:

The military doesn't recruit psychopaths - they recruit ordinary people, which is precisely why there is a high percentage of burn-out.

You've forfeited any right to comment with that ridiculous comment.

So, Grappler contends that military personnel are not psychopaths at the time of recruitment.

PTSD rate in the military is only 11-20%. That is not to say there aren't other undiagnosed or unrecognized psychiatric conditions in military personnel.

Not even a remote comparison... the rate of PTSD - around 30% in combat troops and that includes nearby ancillary troops as well - is generated (wait for it) as a RESULT of the exposure of otherwise civilised human beings to an uncivilised environment. It is a PSYCHOLOGICAL disorder created by environmental factors in otherwise normal human beings.

Psychiatric issues are rapidly discovered and weeded out, and nowhere more than in Special Forces, which, contrary to cafe gangster belief, rely on intelligence, composure, training, and teamwork and has no place for 'lone wolves'. NO psychopathic individual ever gets into Special Forces, and even if the shrinks miss them, which is unlikely, the sergeants sitting on a Selection Board will find them out... ye've my word on it.

Sometimes extraordinary measures are called for, usually in response to extreme actions on the part of an enemy - for example, the SS declared that they would take no Airborne prisoners if Europe was invaded, and the Hitlerjugend Division massacred Canadian prisoners as a matter of policy. The PAVN did the same, and Yon Islamites are noted for their barbarity towards prisoners.

There is no justification in such circumstances for not meting out the same in retaliation, and it is often the case that this can occur. US Airborne routinely refused to take SS prisoner, because the SS did it to them, often in horrifying ways, and neither did the Canadians after their experience in Normandy with Hitler's young murderers. In Vietnam, considering the massacred of wounded at Dak To by the PAVN, and atrocities committed by them even early in that war, it is no wonder that some US troops killed PAVN soldiers as a matter of course. The 101st Airborne had the same early on with captured wounded tortured to death, leading to PAVN prisoners being executed out of hand.

I've told you before, about the Ia Drang, the wounded to killed ratio for the Seventy Cavalry was extraordinary - for the simple reason that the PAVN/VC killed wounded out of hand.

There are no rules in a knife fight.

Back during the ww1 the blokes in France for instance would do a spell on the line and then go back to the rear and get on the grog and into the girls all in safety. It must be hard fighting those wars where there is no frontline and civilians/enemy all dress the same. Nowhere is safe. A soldier would have to be on edge 24/7. No wonder so many have come back suffering trauma. Continual stress.

This is glossed over a lot - but part of the reason the Australian Corps was so successful in 1917-18 was that they were ruthless and bayoneted Germans out of hand. The 18th Battalion in particular was famous for a throat thrust, and thus the Germans often ran rather than face them.

That's what happens in wars. In WW II there were many charges of atrocities against Allied soldiers, but none was ever convicted. Compared to the atrocities of the Germans and Japanese they were nothing.

The german high command couldn't believe we were from a civilised country by the way we fought. But that's why we were so good. Some years ago footage surfaced of australian fighters strafing jap lifeboats. I knew a old bloke who was on one of the planes. Apparently they investigated him but nothing happened. I would have strafed the bastards if I had my way.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #52 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:33pm

Bismarck Sea Battle - by that time the Japanese had massacred natives, massacred prisoners including hospital patients, had tied up an Australian prisoner at Milne Bay and bayoneted him before they were kicked out, beheaded an entire Dutch missionary family on the north shore of New Guinea.....strafed parachuting aircrew and beheaded captured aircrew.... by that time not too many had any mercy for them. They sowed the breeze and reaped the whirlwind, and didn't show any remorse or humanity even later, when they massacred POWs rather than allow them to be liberated.

They got what they deserved and what they paid for in blood of others. Even the natives had had enough, and any survivors of the Bismarck Sea were head-hunted by hostile natives who'd been savagely treated.

If the choice is between them and you/yours - who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

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Unforgiven Gold Member Offline I have sinned Posts: 8879 Gender:	Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan Reply #53 - Jun 11^th, 2018 at 9:32pm Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 8:14pm: I would have strafed the bastards if I had my way. From a horizontal position in your couch? Dream on.
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rhino

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #54 - Jun 12^th, 2018 at 12:35am

Unforgiven wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 10:15am:

The military doesn't recruit psychopaths - they recruit ordinary people, which is precisely why there is a high percentage of burn-out.

You've forfeited any right to comment with that ridiculous comment.

So, Grappler contends that military personnel are not psychopaths at the time of recruitment.

PTSD rate in the military is only 11-20%. That is not to say there aren't other undiagnosed or unrecognized psychiatric conditions in military personnel.

Diagnosed. I would contend the actual rate of PTSD in frontline combat troops would be around 100 percent. The fact is that most cope with it and get on with their lives and dont seek treatment.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #55 - Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:12am

rhino wrote on Jun 12^th, 2018 at 12:35am:

Unforgiven wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 11^th, 2018 at 10:15am:

The military doesn't recruit psychopaths - they recruit ordinary people, which is precisely why there is a high percentage of burn-out.

You've forfeited any right to comment with that ridiculous comment.

So, Grappler contends that military personnel are not psychopaths at the time of recruitment.

PTSD rate in the military is only 11-20%. That is not to say there aren't other undiagnosed or unrecognized psychiatric conditions in military personnel.

Diagnosed. I would contend the actual rate of PTSD in frontline combat troops would be around 100 percent. The fact is that most cope with it and get on with their lives and dont seek treatment.

Agreed.

Psychological issue of normal people dealing with abnormal situations, as opposed to psychiatric issues, where it is abnormal people dealing with normal situations.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Jasin

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #56 - Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:32am

Ajax wrote on Jun 10^th, 2018 at 3:14pm:

A war crime is a war crime their is no discrimination on race or colour.

Are we going to bring ourselves down to their level....?!?!

Become the very thing we despise....???

AJAX sums it up.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Just because the enemy exhibits dishonourable Military, Political behaviours in the name of Religion. It does not justify Australian Military personel who think they are 'Special' Roll Eyes

to commit 'similar' behaviours and ...crimes.

Humanity rose above the Animal Kingdom, by NOT acting like an Animal (anymore).

Disgusting behaviour by Australian Troops. We only expect 'grub' behaviour from Military 'Leadership' here and from Political Leadership.
...they must be 'yankees' amongst our ranks Wink

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 80190 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan Reply #57 - Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:37am Go - tell it to the Spartans..
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46466 Gender:	Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan Reply #58 - Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:47am Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:37am: Go - tell it to the Spartans.. The Spartans used to 'bugger' their captured enemies. No wonder the enemy feared to fight them ...you would rather die than be captured.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Australian SAS committed atrocities in Afghanistan
Reply #59 - Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:52am

Jasin wrote on Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:47am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 12^th, 2018 at 6:37am:

Go - tell it to the Spartans..

The Spartans used to 'bugger' their captured enemies.
No wonder the enemy feared to fight them ...you would rather die than be captured. Grin

As the doctor said when refusing to treat Vietnamese POWs - that oath was taken at home - not here.

Love to argue all day - but I have a day's travel in front of me. We'll chew the fat later.

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