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Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies. (Read 6797 times)
BigOl64
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Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:28am
 

Even with both federal and state labor going out of their way to destroy thousands of jobs in the coal sector, claiming is a a dead industry, it seems they may be just another bunch of lying idiots like the greens.

Resources loves the renewable industry, idiots willing to pay top dollar for intermittent power backed up by coal & gas. Metalliferous mining digging up the minerals to make turbines and panels to produce expensive intermittent power so dumb-arsed socialist can feel good that we are doing something about out 1% GHG emissions.

Cha fkken Ching miners.  Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley




COAL prices are soaring again, with thermal prices at six-year highs and coking coal looking to push through the $US200 ($A262) a tonne barrier.

Spot prices for thermal coal cargoes for export from the Newcastle terminal have reached $US115.25 a tonne – the highest level since February 2012.

The price of Australian coal used for electricity generation has risen to its highest level since 2012 as hot weather across north Asia spurs demand ahead of the peak season.

“Supply is tight out of Australia. What has also happened is exports out of South Africa are down,” said Shane Stephan, managing director at New Hope, Australia’s third-biggest independent coal producer.

“That opens up the market for more Australian coal into Asia.”

The increased demand has led to a traffic-jam of dozens of ships waiting at Newcastle to load coal.

“You are seeing some real competition for access to thermal coal during this restocking phase in Asia,” Mr Stephan said.

“I suspect that pricing could go a little higher yet.”

Queensland operator TerraCom looks likely to generate sales of at least $48 million for the September quarter with its $1 Blair Athol coal mine, in the Bowen Basin, meeting demand in the Asian markets.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/business/increased-demand-from-asia-pushes-up-aus...
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BigOl64
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #1 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:14pm
 


Strange it's been here all day and not a single post of confected outrage and denial by the inner city wankers who use their usual lies and obfuscation to cover the truth.

Australia stand alone with its rejection of the latest n coal technology that burns cleaner and more efficiently, thus saving the planet millions of tonnes of CO2.


Just shut it down and hope no-one notices the black outs and massive power bills.


When you produce only 1% of the worlds carbon, there is absolutely no need to shoot yourself in the face as a show of solidarity.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #2 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm
 
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #3 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm
 
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.
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Valkie
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #4 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:13pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


The good old days of mining money as a miner are sadly diminishing.
That's why I got into support industry.
You can charge almost what you like and get away with it.


Two, perhaps three years, and I'm outa  there and off to see the world again.
Only difference is, this time I'll be paying😢😢😢😢😢😢
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I HAVE A DREAM
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Ajax
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #5 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 11:23am
 
Ever notice the doomsayers only give us the per capita value and very rarely say anything about the percentage.

By percentage we are 15th on the ladder

By per capita we are 4th on the ladder

Behind UAE, Qatar and Kuwait.

Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.

How many gum leaves per capita in Australia.....???

who gives a............................ Cheesy

...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #6 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm
 
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?
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cods
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #7 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:43pm
 
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 11:23am:
Ever notice the doomsayers only give us the per capita value and very rarely say anything about the percentage.

By percentage we are 15th on the ladder

By per capita we are 4th on the ladder

Behind UAE, Qatar and Kuwait.

Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.

How many gum leaves per capita in Australia.....???

who gives a............................ Cheesy

https://preview.ibb.co/nEe1so/percapitaco2.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions





what about those volcanoes in Hawaii and Guatemala 

do you think they are adding to emissions somewhere?.

Quote:
Volcano experts say there’s nothing to show there has been a surge in volcanic eruptions - despite the deaths of almost 100 people in Guatemala and an entire suburb swallowed in Hawaii this week.

Indonesia’s Merapo also erupted last month.

Volcanologist Ray Cas from Monash University said the frequency of eruptions varies, and it’s simply down to technology meaning news and images of volcanic activity are more widely shared.



suddenly its drones that makes it easier for us to know a volcano is having a seizure.. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

in the past we havnt been fully aware  Roll Eyes again that surprises me...


what emissions  are volcanoes responsible for Ajax?


even earthquakes would make a considerable contribution I would think..

can they blame Australia for that as well?..
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cods
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #8 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?




rich in emission you mean?....
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Ajax
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #9 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Exactly what does it tell you.....?!?!?

Meaningless, means nothing.

Encomists jargon.... Wink 
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1. "There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than the carbon tax." Ajax
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Ajax
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #10 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:05pm
 
cods wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:43pm:
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 11:23am:
Ever notice the doomsayers only give us the per capita value and very rarely say anything about the percentage.

By percentage we are 15th on the ladder

By per capita we are 4th on the ladder

Behind UAE, Qatar and Kuwait.

Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.

How many gum leaves per capita in Australia.....???

who gives a............................ Cheesy

https://preview.ibb.co/nEe1so/percapitaco2.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions





what about those volcanoes in Hawaii and Guatemala 

do you think they are adding to emissions somewhere?.

Quote:
Volcano experts say there’s nothing to show there has been a surge in volcanic eruptions - despite the deaths of almost 100 people in Guatemala and an entire suburb swallowed in Hawaii this week.

Indonesia’s Merapo also erupted last month.

Volcanologist Ray Cas from Monash University said the frequency of eruptions varies, and it’s simply down to technology meaning news and images of volcanic activity are more widely shared.



suddenly its drones that makes it easier for us to know a volcano is having a seizure.. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

in the past we havnt been fully aware  Roll Eyes again that surprises me...


what emissions  are volcanoes responsible for Ajax?


even earthquakes would make a considerable contribution I would think..

can they blame Australia for that as well?..


Yep volcanoes contribute to CO2 in the atmosphere, the doomsayers say that all the volcanoes in the world don't amount to mans emissions, but I find that hard to believe since we have about 3000 active volcanoes in the oceans.

Plus the ever increasing rate of CO2 in the atmosphere doesn't follow what mans emissions are doing and since the year 2000 mans emissions have sky rocketed.

The increase follows what the natural CO2 sinks are venting with an increase in temperature.
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1. "There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than the carbon tax." Ajax
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #11 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:31pm
 
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Exactly what does it tell you.....?!?!?

Meaningless, means nothing.

Encomists jargon.... Wink 


The per capita GDP means a lot.

Are you saying it means nothing, or that you don't know what it means?
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Ajax
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #12 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:31pm:
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Exactly what does it tell you.....?!?!?

Meaningless, means nothing.

Encomists jargon.... Wink 


The per capita GDP means a lot.

Are you saying it means nothing, or that you don't know what it means?


What does it mean......???

Australia GDP 1.2 trillion

Australian Population 24 million

1200,000,000,000 = 50,000
       24,000,000

What does it tell you...........????

Absolutely FA......................!!!!
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Valkie
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #13 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:50pm
 
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 11:23am:
Ever notice the doomsayers only give us the per capita value and very rarely say anything about the percentage.

By percentage we are 15th on the ladder

By per capita we are 4th on the ladder

Behind UAE, Qatar and Kuwait.

Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.

How many gum leaves per capita in Australia.....???

who gives a............................ Cheesy

https://preview.ibb.co/nEe1so/percapitaco2.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions


Per capita we have more politicians
But worse roads, public transport and schools.

Per capita we have the lowest pensions, except for public servants and politicians who have the largest in the world.

Bring on the revolution.

These PARASITES are destroying our country.
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I HAVE A DREAM
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A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Secret Wars
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #14 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 3:03pm
 
GDP is a measure of activity in an economy, it can be useful but not in the hands of politicians.  By itself it makes no statement as to how useful or detrimental that activity is.
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Ajax
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #15 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 3:12pm
 
Secret Wars wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
GDP is a measure of activity in an economy, it can be useful but not in the hands of politicians.  By itself it makes no statement as to how useful or detrimental that activity is.


That's fair enough but dividing it by the population to get a per capita statistic is meaningless.

It tells you nothing about the population.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #16 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 3:54pm
 
Per capita CO2 emissions are meaningless. Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2. Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.

Australia, having a small population and large landmass, is doubly hit.

Per capita emissions do not take into account any sources or sinks of CO2. Australia is a net sink of CO2.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #17 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm
 
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
Secret Wars wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
GDP is a measure of activity in an economy, it can be useful but not in the hands of politicians.  By itself it makes no statement as to how useful or detrimental that activity is.


That's fair enough but dividing it by the population to get a per capita statistic is meaningless.

It tells you nothing about the population.


It tells you how much money they make, per person. In what fantasy world is that meaningless?

Would you rather live in a country with a $100billion GDP and a $10 per capita GDP, or a country with with a $1billion GDP and a $100000 per capita GDP?

Quote:
Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2.


Crap.

Quote:
Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.


Crap.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #18 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2.


Crap.



Reference?

Smaller populations still need power. You think that that power is emission free? That larger power stations do not have an efficiency advantage over smaller power stations?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.

Crap.




Reference?

So you think having to provide infrastructure over a large land mass is as energy efficient as providing infrastructure over a smaller land mass?

Perhaps you might like to expand your position.

Because it looks like CRAP.
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lee
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Reply #19 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:41pm
 
Quote:
This article examines what role natural factors play in explaining cross-country differences in carbon dioxide emissions. Natural factors mean here differences in the climatic conditions, the availability of renewable and fossil fuel resources and the transportation requirements of countries. While income remains the main variable, regression results show that natural factors contribute significantly to an explanation of cross-country differences in carbon dioxide emissions. Furthermore, drastic differences in natural conditions can lead to substantial differences in predicted emission requirements for individual countries at approximately the same level of income.


Quote:
We would expect big countries with higher transportation requirements to have higher emissions than small countries. Similarly, we would expect countries that have access to domestic renewable energy resources to have lower emissions than countries that lack such resources. Finally, countries without major fossil fuel reserves should have lower CO2 emissions than countries that are rich in such reserves.


http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.545.8707&rep=rep1&type=...


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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #20 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.

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lee
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Reply #21 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:49pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.



So just how much has climate changed due to the magic molecule, CO2?

...

Seems like more rainfall. Suggests less drought.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #22 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:20pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I'm 65 in 3 years ... I hope I'm able to get out then ... if I live that long or the idiots I work for haven't destroyed the business.

If I was looking at another 10 years I'd have to consider a do it yourself funeral kit ......

it's the one where you just wet the ground & you sink in by yourself.
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Reply #23 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:43pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2.


Crap.



Reference?

Smaller populations still need power. You think that that power is emission free? That larger power stations do not have an efficiency advantage over smaller power stations?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.

Crap.




Reference?

So you think having to provide infrastructure over a large land mass is as energy efficient as providing infrastructure over a smaller land mass?

Perhaps you might like to expand your position.

Because it looks like CRAP.


That's how it works eh? You pull some absolute crap out of your arse. I call it for what it is. But I need to provide the evidence?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #24 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:51pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2.


Crap.



Reference?

Smaller populations still need power. You think that that power is emission free? That larger power stations do not have an efficiency advantage over smaller power stations?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.

Crap.




Reference?

So you think having to provide infrastructure over a large land mass is as energy efficient as providing infrastructure over a smaller land mass?

Perhaps you might like to expand your position.

Because it looks like CRAP.


That's how it works eh? You pull some absolute crap out of your arse. I call it for what it is. But I need to provide the evidence?


Yes ... why not? ... that's what you & everyone else does.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #25 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 7:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
That's how it works eh? You pull some absolute crap out of your arse. I call it for what it is. But I need to provide the evidence?



Perhaps you missed the follow up post? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Or don't you consider scientific papers as proof?
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« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2018 at 7:19pm by lee »  
 
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #26 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 7:54pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:20pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I'm 65 in 3 years ... I hope I'm able to get out then ... if I live that long or the idiots I work for haven't destroyed the business.

If I was looking at another 10 years I'd have to consider a do it yourself funeral kit ......

it's the one where you just wet the ground & you sink in by yourself.


Yea, I'm 60 and I'm not waiting until the grubberment tells me I can retire.
I have everything I need and my super will give me a comfortable, but not quite lavish lifestyle.
I should be able to manage one trip overseas a year, but that's about all.

I keep telling my family that I'm having a state funeral.
I tell them to just leave my body in the hospital and the grubberment will give me a papers grave.
who cares, I'll be dead.
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I HAVE A DREAM
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A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #27 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:22pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 7:13pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
That's how it works eh? You pull some absolute crap out of your arse. I call it for what it is. But I need to provide the evidence?



Perhaps you missed the follow up post? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Or don't you consider scientific papers as proof?


It says they "expect". That is not evidence.

Do we need more GHG emissions than the Danish because we get mangoes from Cairns and mandarins from South America, while they have to eat cabbage, rollmops and whatever else can be grown in their borders?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #28 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Do we need more GHG emissions than the Danish because we get mangoes from Cairns and mandarins from South America, while they have to eat cabbage, rollmops and whatever else can be grown in their borders?


Do those people who don't live in Sydney and Melbourne deserve food manufactured in the Southern States? Most food is manufactured in the South-East. You know like in Darwin? Should they be entitled to everyday groceries?

Should those people not on the eastern seaboard go without power, because most is generated there and it costs to reticulate it? Or should they be allowed to generate their own power, at reduced efficiency?

So let's compare Germany and Australia.

Size - Germany - ~357k Sq Km  Australia - ~7,692k Sq Km So Australia about 21 times larger

Population - Germany ~82.2Million Australia ~24.7Million So Australia has about 30% of the population.

One would assume seeing that Germany has a higher population density ratio the cost of  transport of goods would be far less. The cost of reticulation of power would be much less.

That would translate to higher energy expenditure; and higher CO2 emissions.


What would you "expect"?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #29 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:28pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:49pm:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.



So just how much has climate changed due to the magic molecule, CO2?

http://www.bom.gov.au/tmp/cc/rranom.aus.0112.32630.png

Seems like more rainfall. Suggests less drought.


I appreciate your interest in the issue, but I'm not going to bother with a zealot who judges the legitimacy of information based on if it supports their opinion or not.

I won't waste either of our time.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #30 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:45pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
I appreciate your interest in the issue, but I'm not going to bother with a zealot who judges the legitimacy of information based on if it supports their opinion or not.

I won't waste either of our time.



So you can't refute it? Too bad.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #31 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm
 
Of course I can, but I've seen how pointless it is with you. 

You reject every piece of evidence put to you, you don't justify why or how you just reject it.

Your replies are full of strawmen and logical fallacies and it always results in personal attacks.

Tell me what is the point?

The topic of this thread is coal not being a dying industry.

Even if you ignore the climate change aspect (you know, and not ignore the bulk of my reply) it will soon enough be more expensive to use coal as a fuel source.  While this isn't going to happen tomorrow, it will happen.

Those in the industry now, especially those in their sunset years will likely be fine, but those just starting out, they'll need to diversify their skillset and save what they can from their earnings now. 

The glory days of coal are over.

Clinging to it rather than the industry and energy sources of the future, especially if doing so based on some ideological grudge to give the middle finger to green groups is just moronic.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #32 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:03pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Of course I can, but I've seen how pointless it is with you.

You reject every piece of evidence put to you, you don't justify why or how you just reject it.



Show me the evidence. Not climate models because they are not evidence.

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Your replies are full of strawmen and logical fallacies and it always results in personal attacks.



You mean after i am attacked? Otherwise please a direct quote.

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
The topic of this thread is coal not being a dying industry.



True. But you were the one raised "climate change".

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Even if you ignore the climate change aspect (you know, and not ignore the bulk of my reply) it will soon enough be more expensive to use coal as a fuel source.  While this isn't going to happen tomorrow, it will happen.


it most certainly may. But until we have dispatchable power that can be used for steel, aluminium it is off in the future.

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Clinging to it rather than the industry and energy sources of the future, especially if doing so based on some ideological grudge to give the middle finger to green groups is just moronic.



Yes. But first you must achieve those dispatchable energy sources.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #33 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Do we need more GHG emissions than the Danish because we get mangoes from Cairns and mandarins from South America, while they have to eat cabbage, rollmops and whatever else can be grown in their borders?


Do those people who don't live in Sydney and Melbourne deserve food manufactured in the Southern States? Most food is manufactured in the South-East. You know like in Darwin? Should they be entitled to everyday groceries?

Should those people not on the eastern seaboard go without power, because most is generated there and it costs to reticulate it? Or should they be allowed to generate their own power, at reduced efficiency?

So let's compare Germany and Australia.

Size - Germany - ~357k Sq Km  Australia - ~7,692k Sq Km So Australia about 21 times larger

Population - Germany ~82.2Million Australia ~24.7Million So Australia has about 30% of the population.

One would assume seeing that Germany has a higher population density ratio the cost of  transport of goods would be far less. The cost of reticulation of power would be much less.

That would translate to higher energy expenditure; and higher CO2 emissions.


What would you "expect"?


Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.

And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right. There are billions of people in the world who don't demand food is shipped in from thousands of km away, and if they do get it they don't pretend the GHG emissions don't count. You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #34 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:31pm by lee »  
 
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #35 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:37am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Go to Beijing and have a whiff of the city. Then consider that China is 50 times our population. Australia pollutes 5 times as much CO2 per person than China.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #36 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:51am
 
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:31pm:
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Exactly what does it tell you.....?!?!?

Meaningless, means nothing.

Encomists jargon.... Wink 


The per capita GDP means a lot.

Are you saying it means nothing, or that you don't know what it means?


What does it mean......???

Australia GDP 1.2 trillion

Australian Population 24 million

1200,000,000,000 = 50,000
       24,000,000

What does it tell you...........????

Absolutely FA......................!!!!


Where did you get the extra 1.198 trillion Chinese from? There are 1.3 BILLION Chinese people. 25 million Australians.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #37 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 4:39am
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



Quote:
we should all live in the south-east corner


Well, all the nicest people do.
I quote one of the greatest Australians, when upon hearing of his wifes' pregnancy stated he was moving from England, back to home.
Barry Humphries said, "Being born Australian, is like winning the Lottery of Life." good stuff hey?
he did however continue to say,
"Being born VICTORIAN, IS WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE, TWICE!!!"

I must say I am glad they do not all live here, it well may start to look messy.

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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #38 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #39 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:16am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2.


Crap.



Reference?

Smaller populations still need power. You think that that power is emission free? That larger power stations do not have an efficiency advantage over smaller power stations?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.

Crap.




Reference?

So you think having to provide infrastructure over a large land mass is as energy efficient as providing infrastructure over a smaller land mass?

Perhaps you might like to expand your position.

Because it looks like CRAP.


That's how it works eh? You pull some absolute crap out of your arse. I call it for what it is. But I need to provide the evidence?

well that's how i've always thought it works FD
if I say the earth is round
you say that is crap
I think u would have to back that up.

or just be ignored as a troll, what would it be ? Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #40 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley

actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world   Wink Wink
I guess the question is will we be adapting and making new steel or will we by buying steel from other countries and not even selling the coal ? Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #41 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:31am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 4:39am:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



Quote:
we should all live in the south-east corner


Well, all the nicest people do.
I quote one of the greatest Australians, when upon hearing of his wifes' pregnancy stated he was moving from England, back to home.
Barry Humphries said, "Being born Australian, is like winning the Lottery of Life." good stuff hey?
he did however continue to say,
"Being born VICTORIAN, IS WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE, TWICE!!!"

I must say I am glad they do not all live here, it well may start to look messy.



Grin Grin Grin Grin You would have to be joking.

He may have well stayed in England ... the weather conditions are the same. 

Bloody Mexicans. Tongue
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #42 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:39am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:31am:
mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 4:39am:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



Quote:
we should all live in the south-east corner


Well, all the nicest people do.
I quote one of the greatest Australians, when upon hearing of his wifes' pregnancy stated he was moving from England, back to home.
Barry Humphries said, "Being born Australian, is like winning the Lottery of Life." good stuff hey?
he did however continue to say,
"Being born VICTORIAN, IS WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE, TWICE!!!"

I must say I am glad they do not all live here, it well may start to look messy.



Grin Grin Grin Grin You would have to be joking.

He may have well stayed in England ... the weather conditions are the same. 

Bloody Mexicans. Tongue

I think he was talking about the south east corner of queensland..... utter madness if he wasnt Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #43 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:39am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley

actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world   Wink Wink
I guess the question is will we be adapting and making new steel or will we by buying steel from other countries and not even selling the coal ? Wink Wink


And what will be powering those smelters?

If it's electricity then those smelters will require coal fired power stations to base load power capable of maintaining the levels of demand required for industrial smelting ......

whether or not coking coal is used in it's production.

Renewables at present are not capable of providing base load power for cities & industries like steel & aluminium manufacturing.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #44 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:53am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:39am:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley

actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world   Wink Wink
I guess the question is will we be adapting and making new steel or will we by buying steel from other countries and not even selling the coal ? Wink Wink


And what will be powering those smelters?

If it's electricity then those smelters will require coal fired power stations to base load power capable of maintaining the levels of demand required for industrial smelting ......

whether or not coking coal is used in it's production.

Renewables at present are not capable of providing base load power for cities & industries like steel & aluminium manufacturing.

yes at present but in 20-30 years you really think renewable sources wont be matured enough for base load .
battery tech is getting better and cheaper and if they can iron out the kinks with hydrogen on excess electricity, there r so many solutions happening .
And in the end we will all be able to breath easier..... Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #45 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 11:53am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley


No doubt, but the demand will drop as it is slowly transitioned away from being used in bult for energy.
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Reply #46 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 12:47pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


You can live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, whether it be steak or rolled oats. Just don't pretend you are being forced to transport your food from thousands of miles away, or that you deserve special dispensation on the GHG emissions you cause.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #47 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:04pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 11:53am:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley


No doubt, but the demand will drop as it is slowly transitioned away from being used in bult for energy.



Once they spend many trillions of dollars for batteries, maybe, but until then $200 / tonne is the way most countries are going, except us of course, because we are run by cretins.


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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #48 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 12:47pm:
You can live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, whether it be steak or rolled oats. Just don't pretend you are being forced to transport your food from thousands of miles away, or that you deserve special dispensation on the GHG emissions you cause.


I assume Germany also transports goods and peple, bur apparently that's ok.

So in the NT - you wouldn't be forced to transport cereals,tea, coffee, milk, sugar, jams, spreads, condiments. You would just go without?

And then apart from food in the NT-

You would go without bedding?

o ones forcing them to sleep on a mattress; hey?

And in the south eastern corner you would go without sugar?


And Australia wide you would go without cotton sheets?
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Reply #49 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:20pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:53am:
yes at present but in 20-30 years you really think renewable sources wont be matured enough for base load .



That's a supposition.DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world



"Working with industry partners BlueScope Steel and Arrium, we have developed a low-emission integrated steelmaking process based on two technologies.

Using charcoal to replace a portion of the coal and coke used in steelmaking is the first way to significantly reduce carbon dioxide emissions without substantially modifying the steelworks. An innovative technique to produce charcoal has been developed and produces ‘designer biochar’ which can be made to meet the demands of eight potential applications involved in steelmaking."

https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/MRF/Areas/Community-and-environment/Responsible...

But feel free to prove your point.
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Reply #50 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 12:47pm:
You can live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, whether it be steak or rolled oats. Just don't pretend you are being forced to transport your food from thousands of miles away, or that you deserve special dispensation on the GHG emissions you cause.


I assume Germany also transports goods and peple, bur apparently that's ok.

So in the NT - you wouldn't be forced to transport cereals,tea, coffee, milk, sugar, jams, spreads, condiments. You would just go without?

And then apart from food in the NT-

You would go without bedding?

o ones forcing them to sleep on a mattress; hey?

And in the south eastern corner you would go without sugar?


And Australia wide you would go without cotton sheets?


It's OK for everyone to do it. Just don't pretend you are forced to because you live in a large country. We would not suddenly start emitting fewer per capita GHG emissions if we split the country down the middle.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #51 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
It's OK for everyone to do it. Just don't pretend you are forced to because you live in a large country.



I don't remember saying people were "forced" to do anything. I just said that being a large country we have transport issues, which are more evident here than a country the size of Germany. Those transport issues lead to higher CO2 emissions.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
We would not suddenly start emitting fewer per capita GHG emissions if we split the country down the middle.



Hm. If we split the country down the middle that would infer 2 countries. That would indeed lead to smaller GHG's in each country.
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Reply #52 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm
 
Quote:
Hm. If we split the country down the middle that would infer 2 countries. That would indeed lead to smaller GHG's in each country.


The per capita emissions would be the same.

Quote:
I don't remember saying people were "forced" to do anything. I just said that being a large country we have transport issues, which are more evident here than a country the size of Germany. Those transport issues lead to higher CO2 emissions.


It's crap. And as evidence, you posted someone else haivng the same guess. Unless the government is blocking imports, where you draw the borders has little influence on your transport footprint. People in the very far north have far bigger transport issues because for more than half the year nothing grows there at all, and what they do grow they are sick of the sight of.

Borders are arbitrary lines. They split people into big and small groups. But we still send stuff to each other when we need to.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #53 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
The per capita emissions would be the same.



That would only be true if the emissions and the populations remained in the same ratio. If the emissions remained large but the population dropped; then the emissions per capita would vary.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
It's crap. And as evidence, you posted someone else haivng the same guess.


And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
People in the very far north have far bigger transport issues because for more than half the year nothing grows there at all, and what they do grow they are sick of the sight of.



Ah; you mean like wheat? No, that doesn't work; they don't grow wheat.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
Borders are arbitrary lines. They split people into big and small groups. But we still send stuff to each other when we need to.


Yes. And that imposes a transport cost in terms of GHG's. So who should be liable for these GHG's?
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Reply #54 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:22pm
 
Quote:
And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.


All it takes is a mental experiment. Count the country in half down the middle. The per capita emissions do not halve. what you propose is clearly absurd - that the size of the circle you draw around people changes their behaviour.

You have neither evidence nor reason on your side.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #55 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 9:12pm
 
If we send live sheep and cattle overseas for halal meat markets, etc, which country do their farts count in?
This is not a joke, bum emissions rank high on the greenhouse gas list, so if they fart here, but get eaten there, whose per capita emissions should the farts be counted in?

AGW poses so many complex issues.
Too many posit simple answers, when they are not really applicable.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #56 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 10:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.


All it takes is a mental experiment. Count the country in half down the middle. The per capita emissions do not halve. what you propose is clearly absurd - that the size of the circle you draw around people changes their behaviour.

You have neither evidence nor reason on your side.


GHG emissions and population by state -

NSW - 131.6Mt pop. 7.7M per capita 17.09

Qld - 151.8Mt pop. 4.9M per capita 30.98

Victoria - 113.9Mt  pop. 6.15M per capita 18.52

WA - 82.2Mt pop. 2.64M per capita 31.14

SA - 26.3Mt pop. 1.71M per capita 15.38

NT - 16.5Mt pop. 2.445k per capita 67.48

Tas - -0.1Mt pop. 519k per capita -0.19

ACT - 1.7Mt pop. 401.7K per capita 4.23

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/a97b89a6-d103-4355-8044-3b...

http://www.population.net.au/states/

When the per capita emissions by state vary by that much; it doesn't bode well for your proposition.

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Reply #57 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:40pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 10:17pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.


All it takes is a mental experiment. Count the country in half down the middle. The per capita emissions do not halve. what you propose is clearly absurd - that the size of the circle you draw around people changes their behaviour.

You have neither evidence nor reason on your side.


GHG emissions and population by state -

NSW - 131.6Mt pop. 7.7M per capita 17.09

Qld - 151.8Mt pop. 4.9M per capita 30.98

Victoria - 113.9Mt  pop. 6.15M per capita 18.52

WA - 82.2Mt pop. 2.64M per capita 31.14

SA - 26.3Mt pop. 1.71M per capita 15.38

NT - 16.5Mt pop. 2.445k per capita 67.48

Tas - -0.1Mt pop. 519k per capita -0.19

ACT - 1.7Mt pop. 401.7K per capita 4.23

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/a97b89a6-d103-4355-8044-3b...

http://www.population.net.au/states/

When the per capita emissions by state vary by that much; it doesn't bode well for your proposition.



If SA succeeded, would it's per capita emissions go down by a factor of 6?
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Reply #58 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 1:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
If SA succeeded, would it's per capita emissions go down by a factor of 6?



I assume you meat seceded. But does it matter? It shows that across Australia emissions vary per capita. Some dependant on the type of energy provided and some that the warmer states have higher emissions. The idea that Australians' really have a similar carbon footprint is false.

Having a per capita metric merely makes it convenient for GHG accounting purposes.
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Reply #59 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 6:08pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
If SA succeeded, would it's per capita emissions go down by a factor of 6?



I assume you meat seceded. But does it matter? It shows that across Australia emissions vary per capita. Some dependant on the type of energy provided and some that the warmer states have higher emissions. The idea that Australians' really have a similar carbon footprint is false.

Having a per capita metric merely makes it convenient for GHG accounting purposes.


Yes it matters. It proves that I am right and you are wrong. What you say about our emissions has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the country. We could divide Australia up into a dozen countries and the per capita emissions would be pretty much the same.

Your ideas fail the logic test, well before we get to the evidence side of things.
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Reply #60 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 6:08pm:
It proves that I am right and you are wrong.



It proves nothing. Except that Australians have different energy usage patterns. Up north more air conditioning? Less in NSW and bugger all in Victoria?

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 6:08pm:
What you say about our emissions has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the country.


Perhaps the difference in emissions is due to transport? Large areas of country, little rail; except around the south east of Australia?

What would you say was the difference in the per capita emissions by state? There must be a reason.

Surely you don't think NT is just due to them being energy hungry pigs?

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 6:08pm:
Your ideas fail the logic test, well before we get to the evidence side of things.



And yet you have not logically outlined the reason for the difference in state emissions.

"But if we massage them all into one convenient per capita a number all will be revealed". Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #61 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:12pm
 
Quote:
What would you say was the difference in the per capita emissions by state? There must be a reason.


Sure. Look in to how it is calculated. You'll find that it has nothing to do with the size of the country.

Quote:
And yet you have not logically outlined the reason for the difference in state emissions.


I don't have to do your homework for you. If you cannot come up with a theory that makes sense, no amount of evidence can help you.

You have failed to make sense, and you have failed to produce any evidence that backs up your claims.
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Reply #62 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Sure. Look in to how it is calculated. You'll find that it has nothing to do with the size of the country.


Each state has its own emissions that are calculated similarly. Each state varies from each other.

So tell what are the differing usage patterns that are evident?

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:12pm:
I don't have to do your homework for you


No. You can't even do homework for yourself. No theories  - nothing.

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:12pm:
If you cannot come up with a theory that makes sense, no amount of evidence can help you.



I came up with alternative scenarios; you? Nothing.

"But.. But...  per capita" Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #63 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:35pm
 
Quote:
Each state has its own emissions that are calculated similarly.


So does each person if you want to calculate it that way. The numbers don't change if you change the size of the country they are in.

Is that what you are suggesting? Or have you completely given up on making sense?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #64 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:40pm
 
If you look at Australia's emissions

And compare them to
China
The United States
England

How much do we put out in comparison?

That's all that matters
Not some twisted ideology about per capita.

Wake up and smell the roses
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Reply #65 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 8:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
So does each person if you want to calculate it that way. The numbers don't change if you change the size of the country they are in.



reference please.

NT - 1 335 742 sq km  16.5Mt GHG

SA - 978 810 sq km  26.3Mt GHG

So NT larger than SA, less overall emissions than SA. According to your mantra NT having a larger area should at least have the same emissions; not withstanding their population.

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Is that what you are suggesting? Or have you completely given up on making sense?



Nope. Not what I am suggesting. That's your suggestion.

But I'll leave you to your delusions. Fact free as they are. Wink
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Reply #66 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:28pm
 
What are you suggesting?
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Reply #67 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
What are you suggesting?



The larger the state the larger the emissions because goods have to be transported those larger distances throughout those states. And that's after getting them into the other states from the manufacturers in the south east corner.

But I have said it before. And all you came back with was "crap!" No thought went into your response at all.

That climate plays a large role in our energy emissions. It is hard to say what Tasmania's emissions would be like if it was powered by fossil fuels, due to a need for heating in winter.
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Reply #68 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:57pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
What are you suggesting?



The larger the state the larger the emissions


Large in terms of what? Population? Per capita emissions?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #69 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Large in terms of what? Population? Per capita emissions?



Larger in terms of remoteness from the capital city. Most goods in WA, NT and Queensland are delivered by trucks. Trucks emit CO2. The longer the distance the larger the emissions.
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Reply #70 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:26am
 
How far is each state from it's capital city?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #71 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:26am:
How far is each state from it's capital city?


lee wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Larger in terms of remoteness from the capital city.




So now you want to be pedantic? Appear smart? Didn't work.

I can't help if you don't understand remoteness from capital cities.

There are remote areas that need to be supplied. Whether that is solely from the capital cities or is supplied from further afield. Melbourne - Darwin direct for example.

But you are just being too stupid for words. Bye.
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Reply #72 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 4:31pm
 
Quote:
So now you want to be pedantic? Appear smart? Didn't work.


Here is the less pedantic version: you are posting meaningless gibberish. All meaning disappears on the most superficial inspection. "Larger" does not actually mean anything when you use it.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #73 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 4:28am
 
They were talking about converting some roads into solar panels. WTH? The idea being that they capture solar energy over a section of road, and use some of the power to be used to heat the roads during winter to remove ice.

Thought the smart idea was to have every shaded car park around shopping centres with  solar panels installed for the shopping centres' needs. Then they can put panels around any industry that needs power more than usual.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #74 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 9:17am
 
No good us building roads with solar generation capacity ..... we can't even build them strong enough to last 6 to 12 months without sections breaking up & needing repair from the current car & truck traffic.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #75 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:36am
 
And yet other countries are creating 1000's of jobs from renewables and these deadbeats here want to resurrect a 50 yo clapped out coal fired power station. What a joke Australia is Sad
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #76 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:45am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:36am:
And yet other countries are creating 1000's of jobs from renewables and these deadbeats here want to resurrect a 50 yo clapped out coal fired power station.



yeah. More jobs to do the same or less than the coal fired power stations per MWh. Sounds like a good way to send a country broke.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #77 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:49am
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:36am:
And yet other countries are creating 1000's of jobs from renewables and these deadbeats here want to resurrect a 50 yo clapped out coal fired power station.



yeah. More jobs to do the same or less than the coal fired power stations per MWh. Sounds like a good way to send a country broke.


A progressive country would not only supply locally with product but would also create an export market from its value added goods and product but not Australia. Australia is the odd man out. Always importing everything and exporting nothing except a pile of unprocessed minerals Sad
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #78 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:04pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:49am:
A progressive country would not only supply locally with product but would also create an export market from its value added goods and product but not Australia.



So how do renewables jobs, which are only available in the renewables sector, translate to exports? Australia has already lost manufacturing capacity.

Which jobs open up that are only available to the renewables sector and have export potential?

Renewables powered mining plant? Nope.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #79 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:23pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:04pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:49am:
A progressive country would not only supply locally with product but would also create an export market from its value added goods and product but not Australia.



So how do renewables jobs, which are only available in the renewables sector, translate to exports? Australia has already lost manufacturing capacity.

Which jobs open up that are only available to the renewables sector and have export potential?

Renewables powered mining plant? Nope.

how about
batteries
wind farms
solar panels
mini grids
thermal solar
thermal systems
bio gas systems.
bio coke
passive solar systems
specialist companies to supply and install all the above overseas with Australian workforce and machines.

just a few off my head lee
Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #80 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:31pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:23pm:
how about
batteries -
the world has beaten you to it.

wind farms -
We import them. We would need reliable power supplies for manufacture. it is energy intensive.

solar panels -
The chinese have beaten you to it. Also energy intensive.

mini grids -
What exaclty does that mean? It sounds like each option would have to be manufactured in situ; because each city, town is different. Impossible to do in Australia.

thermal solar -
Show me a thermal solar plant that has performed reliably.

thermal systems -
Expansion on your thought bubble is needed to clarify what you mean.

bio gas systems -
Are not renewables in the true sense. There has to be feedstock. Bio gas releases GHG's.

bio coke 
Same.

passive solar systems -
needs reliable power supplies.

specialist companies to supply and install all the above overseas with Australian workforce and machines. -
So they couldn't do it with their own labour cheaper?


just a few off my head lee



Yes. It would seem you are off your head.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #81 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:31pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:23pm:
how about
batteries -
the world has beaten you to it.

wind farms -
We import them. We would need reliable power supplies for manufacture. it is energy intensive.

solar panels -
The chinese have beaten you to it. Also energy intensive.

mini grids -
What exaclty does that mean? It sounds like each option would have to be manufactured in situ; because each city, town is different. Impossible to do in Australia.

thermal solar -
Show me a thermal solar plant that has performed reliably.

thermal systems -
Expansion on your thought bubble is needed to clarify what you mean.

bio gas systems -
Are not renewables in the true sense. There has to be feedstock. Bio gas releases GHG's.

bio coke 
Same.

passive solar systems -
needs reliable power supplies.

specialist companies to supply and install all the above overseas with Australian workforce and machines. -
So they couldn't do it with their own labour cheaper?


just a few off my head lee



Yes. It would seem you are off your head.

wowo Lee good thing you not in charge of CSIRO  Wink Wink
so we give up because another country is doing it.... way to lay down and die Lee  Wink Wink
you  work for the government don't ya
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #82 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:08pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:31pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:23pm:
how about
batteries -
the world has beaten you to it.

wind farms -
We import them. We would need reliable power supplies for manufacture. it is energy intensive.

solar panels -
The chinese have beaten you to it. Also energy intensive.

mini grids -
What exaclty does that mean? It sounds like each option would have to be manufactured in situ; because each city, town is different. Impossible to do in Australia.

thermal solar -
Show me a thermal solar plant that has performed reliably.

thermal systems -
Expansion on your thought bubble is needed to clarify what you mean.

bio gas systems -
Are not renewables in the true sense. There has to be feedstock. Bio gas releases GHG's.

bio coke 
Same.

passive solar systems -
needs reliable power supplies.

specialist companies to supply and install all the above overseas with Australian workforce and machines. -
So they couldn't do it with their own labour cheaper?


just a few off my head lee



Yes. It would seem you are off your head.

wowo Lee good thing you not in charge of CSIRO  Wink Wink
so we give up because another country is doing it.... way to lay down and die Lee  Wink Wink
you  work for the government don't ya


Grin So do the CSIRO  Roll Eyes
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #83 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:18pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:04pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:49am:
A progressive country would not only supply locally with product but would also create an export market from its value added goods and product but not Australia.



So how do renewables jobs, which are only available in the renewables sector, translate to exports? Australia has already lost manufacturing capacity.

Which jobs open up that are only available to the renewables sector and have export potential?

Renewables powered mining plant? Nope.



Well it seems that the renewables companies when constructing their massive solar farms up here in the north employ mostly backpackers instead of locals, so that is what they must mean.

Buy foreign solar equipment

Handed taxpayer funds

Employ foreign backpackers

Provide intermittent unreliable power,

Cha fkken ching b1tches

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Reply #84 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm
 
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #85 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:47pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.

coal power stations are so pretty, specially if your downwind..... Wink Wink
once they r built how much does it cost for the ongoing wind they use....
hmmm how about coal for a coal station ? Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #86 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:52pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.

coal power stations are so pretty, specially if your downwind..... Wink Wink
once they r built how much does it cost for the ongoing wind they use....
hmmm how about coal for a coal station ? Wink Wink



How much does it cost to run a coal fired power station to remain online just in case the hugely expensive wind farm loses all that 'free' wind?

Same applies to solar farms


It costs a friggen fortune to run coal power just to sit on stand-by just in case the intermittent power supply drops off-line.

Just a tidbit of info the greenies don't mention


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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #87 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:58pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
wowo Lee good thing you not in charge of CSIRO



You mean the announcement  by the CSIRO of biochar?

"Biochar  is the charred by-product of biomass pyrolysis, the heating of plant-derived material in the absence of oxygen in order to capture combustible gases. The objective of this report was  to  review  and  evaluate  published  studies  with  regard  to  what  evidence  and  arguments  currently  exist  that  assess  the  application  of  biochar  to  soil  to  a)  sequester  carbon  and  b) produce  secondary  agronomic  benefits. "

http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/science/2009/sr05-09.pdf

So what is pyrolysis? Pyrolysis is the thermal decomposition of materials at elevated temperatures in an inert atmosphere. (source: Wiki)

So what sources are used to heat these materials to "elevated temperatures"? One assumes a chemical precess; otherwise it seems self-defeating. But I can find no evidence.

Sequestration of Carbon? But the anti-coal people say it is not achievable, is not safe because it can leach out.


DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
so we give up because another country is doing it.... way to lay down and die Lee


Do you understand economies of scale? Other countries already do it in a larger capacity than we do. Then of course at this stage you have to ship it overseas, in a GHG emissive vehicle of some sort. Unless you want to go back to wind power.
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Reply #88 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:00pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:58pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
wowo Lee good thing you not in charge of CSIRO



You mean the announcement  by the CSIRO of biochar?

"Biochar  is the charred by-product of biomass pyrolysis, the heating of plant-derived material in the absence of oxygen in order to capture combustible gases. The objective of this report was  to  review  and  evaluate  published  studies  with  regard  to  what  evidence  and  arguments  currently  exist  that  assess  the  application  of  biochar  to  soil  to  a)  sequester  carbon  and  b) produce  secondary  agronomic  benefits. "

http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/science/2009/sr05-09.pdf

So what is pyrolysis? Pyrolysis is the thermal decomposition of materials at elevated temperatures in an inert atmosphere. (source: Wiki)

So what sources are used to heat these materials to "elevated temperatures"? One assumes either a chemical precess; otherwise it seems self-defeating. But I can find no evidence.

Sequestration of Carbon? But the anti-coal people say it is not achievable, is not safe because it can leach out.


DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
so we give up because another country is doing it.... way to lay down and die Lee


Do you understand economies of scale? Other countries already do it in a larger capacity than we do. Then of course at this stage you have to ship it overseas, in a GHG emissive vehicle of some sort. Unless you want to go back to wind power.

and no I said good thing r not in charge of CSIRO because u would shut it down and say we cant compete lets just quit

wow u have decided Australia cant make anything..... well hopefully the rest of us don't think that way....... Wink Wink
I guess u might as well lay down and die right now Lee Tongue
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #89 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:06pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:00pm:
and no I said good thing r not in charge of CSIRO because u would shut it down and say we cant compete lets just quit

wow u have decided Australia cant make anything..... well hopefully the rest of us don't think that way....... Wink Wink
I guess u might as well lay down and die right now Lee



So no substantive argument. Just gum and arm flapping. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #90 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:08pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:00pm:
and no I said good thing r not in charge of CSIRO because u would shut it down and say we cant compete lets just quit

wow u have decided Australia cant make anything..... well hopefully the rest of us don't think that way....... Wink Wink
I guess u might as well lay down and die right now Lee



So no substantive argument. Just gum and arm flapping. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

ohh you have already decided Australia can do nothing... why bother  Wink Wink
cant beat a dead horse Lee Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #91 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:12pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
cant beat a dead horse Lee



You try so often. I expect you do; just doesn't respond. How sad for you.

BTW  - what happened to those other "off the head" comments?

Biochar will still give off CO2 when eventually burned. It is carboniferous.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #92 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 6:03pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.

coal power stations are so pretty, specially if your downwind..... Wink Wink
once they r built how much does it cost for the ongoing wind they use....
hmmm how about coal for a coal station ? Wink Wink


Modern ones have virtually no smell ... nothing like an aluminium refinery & it's corrosive lung busting air pollution as well as its massive tailings dams.

As for the ongoing wind costs ... totally the point .... the fact that can't be 100 % reliable ... in fact for any reasonable constant requirement they are very unreliable.

Believe it or not when the wind don't blow da windmill don't go. And that stuffs reliability big time.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/01/how-reliable-is-wind-power/
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Reply #93 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 12:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 4:31pm:
Quote:
So now you want to be pedantic? Appear smart? Didn't work.


Here is the less pedantic version: you are posting meaningless gibberish. All meaning disappears on the most superficial inspection. "Larger" does not actually mean anything when you use it.


Lee, can you give us the "not meaningless gibberish" version of what larger means?

lee wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
What are you suggesting?



The larger the state the larger the emissions because goods have to be transported those larger distances throughout those states. And that's after getting them into the other states from the manufacturers in the south east corner.

But I have said it before. And all you came back with was "crap!" No thought went into your response at all.

That climate plays a large role in our energy emissions. It is hard to say what Tasmania's emissions would be like if it was powered by fossil fuels, due to a need for heating in winter.

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Reply #94 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 12:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 15th, 2018 at 12:24pm:
Lee, can you give us the "not meaningless gibberish" version of what larger means?



Larger means not smaller. Longer distances travelled are larger than shorter distances travelled. 1,000 Km is larger (or longer if you prefer) than 500 Km. 1Kg is larger than 500 grams.

Thee world abounds in examples of what larger is.

I am sorry if that is beyond you.
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Reply #95 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 6:20pm
 
Quote:
The larger the state the larger the emissions


Were you referring to weight here Lee?

Why do climate change deniers struggle with something as simple as knowing what they mean?
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Reply #96 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 6:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 15th, 2018 at 6:20pm:
Were you referring to weight here Lee?


GHG emissions are generally referred to in Megaton or Gigaton.

The state emissions I posted were in megaton CO2  equivalents.
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Reply #97 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:23am
 
And what makes a state large, other than remoteness from itself? Or are you sticking with that one?
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Reply #98 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:39am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 6:03pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.

coal power stations are so pretty, specially if your downwind..... Wink Wink
once they r built how much does it cost for the ongoing wind they use....
hmmm how about coal for a coal station ? Wink Wink


Modern ones have virtually no smell ... nothing like an aluminium refinery & it's corrosive lung busting air pollution as well as its massive tailings dams.

As for the ongoing wind costs ... totally the point .... the fact that can't be 100 % reliable ... in fact for any reasonable constant requirement they are very unreliable.

Believe it or not when the wind don't blow da windmill don't go. And that stuffs reliability big time.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/01/how-reliable-is-wind-power/

and how many of these "clean" coal stations r in Australia ? Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #99 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:52am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:39am:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 6:03pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.

coal power stations are so pretty, specially if your downwind..... Wink Wink
once they r built how much does it cost for the ongoing wind they use....
hmmm how about coal for a coal station ? Wink Wink


Modern ones have virtually no smell ... nothing like an aluminium refinery & it's corrosive lung busting air pollution as well as its massive tailings dams.

As for the ongoing wind costs ... totally the point .... the fact that can't be 100 % reliable ... in fact for any reasonable constant requirement they are very unreliable.

Believe it or not when the wind don't blow da windmill don't go. And that stuffs reliability big time.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/01/how-reliable-is-wind-power/

and how many of these "clean" coal stations r in Australia ? Wink Wink



None because our government are fkking cretins who believe the lies about intermittent power being the future.

The rest of the planet are not so gullible.

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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #100 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:47am
 
Do you think clean coal is an intermittent source?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #101 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:55am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:47am:
Do you think clean coal is an intermittent source?



Coal is base load, solar & wind are intermittent, obviously.

All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case the intermittent power goes off line without warning or for prolonged periods, and the greenie idiots don't want the most efficient and cleanest coal fire power to do the job.


We are, as a country, fkking cretins
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #102 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am
 
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #103 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand.



Right. So hospitals just go dark at night time or when the wind don't blow?
You talk of batteries. They are only going to give power for a short time if the other power supplies go out.

SA battery? 30,000 homes for about an hour. How much electricity is used by one hospital as compared to 30,000 homes?
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Reply #104 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:14pm
 
Quote:
Right. So hospitals just go dark at night time or when the wind don't blow?


Sure, hospitals can 'go dark' in terms of their connection to the grid. They can do this far easier than most places. They are always designed to be able to go dark. This is probably the worst example you could have chosen.

Quote:
You talk of batteries.


Yes. And peaking suppliers. And intermittent but controllable suppliers. There are all sort of technologies available.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #105 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Sure, hospitals can 'go dark' in terms of their connection to the grid. They can do this far easier than most places. They are always designed to be able to go dark. This is probably the worst example you could have chosen.



So they just stop the operations as soon as it goes dark? Sew them up in the dark? Replace the organs that they were partway through transplanting? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Yes. And peaking suppliers. And intermittent but controllable suppliers. There are all sort of technologies available.



yes and they still can't do the baseload you insist s not necessary. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

ER to road trauma victim "Sorry dear; come back in the morning, we may have power."
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #106 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm
 
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you? That was literally the stupidest example you could have thought of.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #107 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you?



Of course.

But you were the one saying there was no such thing as "there is no actual baseload in demand".

Now you are saying  "well yes there is, but the backup generators will cover it". Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #108 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.



Currently in this country with the except of that on single battery capable of providing 1 hr for 30000 houses. Everywhere else has coal fired back up for all their useless intermittent power.

Try this for a quick math exercise.

30 000 divide by 10hrs = 3000 houses for 10 hyrs

9 000 000 divided by 3000 = 3000

3000 x $100 000 000 = $300 000 000 000

And that is only for the houses, not even close if you include all industrial and commercial


Intermittent power is not worth a snatch full of cold water, when you consider our actual CO2 contribution.

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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #109 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:20pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you?



Of course.

But you were the one saying there was no such thing as "there is no actual baseload in demand".

Now you are saying  "well yes there is, but the backup generators will cover it". Wink


Great. So baseload exists, but is a meaningless concept for our electricity supply because the backup generators already exist for it.

So tell us Lee, what did you think happened whenever the current "baseload" power supply fails? Did you think the hospitals all went dark?

Quote:
Currently in this country with the except of that on single battery capable of providing 1 hr for 30000 houses. Everywhere else has coal fired back up for all their useless intermittent power.


Crap. We have plenty of gas fired power stations that sit idle most of the time, pumped hydro and conventional hydro. And that is just on the supply side. And again, the levels are a reflection of the historical use of more reliable power plants. The more we use more intermittent generators, the more profitable these sorts of things will be.

You have a very narrow view of what constitutes a battery. Hot water systems for example are a type of battery.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #110 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
Great. So baseload exists, but is a meaningless concept for our electricity supply because the backup generators already exist for it.



So baseload exists. You are such a denier. Fancy denying it didn't exist.

"A power outage which blacked out part of the Royal Adelaide Hospital (RAH) on Wednesday is the subject of four separate investigations, the South Australian Government has confirmed.

Two surgical theatres were plunged into darkness, other treatments were disrupted and some people got stuck in lifts when the power failed for 17 minutes."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-09/hospital-power-outage-subject-of-four-inve...

Now just imagine if the power failure was for much more than 17 minutes.

Good to rely on backup power, eh?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #111 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:31pm
 
Baseload is a crude misrepresentation of both the supply and the demand side of our electricity industry that has been latched onto by climate change deniers and turned from a historical accident into an imaginary necessity.

All power stations are intermittent to some extent. All electricity users can tolerate breaks in supply and variations in supply price, because the few that absolutely 'need' continuous power have some kind of backup already.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #112 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you?



Of course.

But you were the one saying there was no such thing as "there is no actual baseload in demand".

Now you are saying  "well yes there is, but the backup generators will cover it". Wink


Great. So baseload exists, but is a meaningless concept for our electricity supply because the backup generators already exist for it.

So tell us Lee, what did you think happened whenever the current "baseload" power supply fails? Did you think the hospitals all went dark?

Quote:
Currently in this country with the except of that on single battery capable of providing 1 hr for 30000 houses. Everywhere else has coal fired back up for all their useless intermittent power.


Crap. We have plenty of gas fired power stations that sit idle most of the time, pumped hydro and conventional hydro. And that is just on the supply side. And again, the levels are a reflection of the historical use of more reliable power plants. The more we use more intermittent generators, the more profitable these sorts of things will be.

You have a very narrow view of what constitutes a battery. Hot water systems for example are a type of battery.



So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.  Grin Grin Grin


QLD we have all coal plants maintained on line not 'just in case' but for when all our useless intermittent power drops off line. It is a lot cheaper than diesel generator that's for sure.

Cheap reliable power, not fkken useless over priced power like you intermittent power champions are calling for.



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Reply #113 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm
 
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #114 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.

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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #115 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:33pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.


Big Ol doesn't know what baseload is: how many years have we been telling him this now?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #116 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.


Big Ol doesn't know what baseload is: how many years have we been telling him this now?



You can't remember to take your medications, how many years have we been telling you this now?

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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #117 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.



What exactly do you think I am suggesting?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #118 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.



What exactly do you think I am suggesting?



That we go to intermittent power and diesel generator back up instead of base load power using coal or gas.
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Reply #119 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:39pm
 
Where did I suggest that?

Pointing out that hospitals don't go dark just because the power goes out is not the same thing.

I am merely suggesting we let both the supply and demand side be guided by rational economics, not hysterical scaremongering about some imaginary need for baseload power.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #120 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:39pm:
I am merely suggesting we let both the supply and demand side be guided by rational economics, not hysterical scaremongering about some imaginary need for baseload power.


You mean like renewables and their subsidies are rational economics? They have far higher subsidies than coal. Wink
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Reply #121 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:06pm
 
No Lee, I am opposed to subsidies, for both.

The concept of baseload power is an example of what can go wrong when the government runs an industry. It is a demand side response to the only service that was on offer. People see that response and conclude, incorrectly, that it is the way the market "needs" to be. The industry has moved on, but the politics lags by a decade or two, fueled by ignorance and scaremongering.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #122 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
The industry has moved on, but the politics lags by a decade or two, fueled by ignorance and scaremongering.



Yep. you can "rely" on renewables if you have no manufacturing industry. we haven't reached tat point yet.
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Reply #123 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
The industry has moved on, but the politics lags by a decade or two, fueled by ignorance and scaremongering.



Yep. you can "rely" on renewables if you have no manufacturing industry. we haven't reached tat point yet.


Manufacturing does not need a steady constant supply of electricity. A lot of them only operate while the sun shines. Again, your concept of manufacturing being reliant on baseload is your misunderstanding of the old industry. Manufacturing is far more nimble than retail consumption. A lot of the ones that run overnight only do so because "baseload" resulted in an oversupply at that time, and hence very cheap wholesale prices. It does not "need" to be that way - it's just your hysterical, emotional over-reaction to change.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #124 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
Manufacturing does not need a steady constant supply of electricity. A lot of them only operate while the sun shines.



If you are running some kind of metallurgy operation you need to run the kilns non stop. Otherwise they take valuable hours to get to operating temperature.

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
It does not "need" to be that way - it's just your hysterical, emotional over-reaction to change.



More like your hysterical reaction to the fact that in some circumstances it does have to be that way.
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Reply #125 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:45pm
 
Btw-

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
The concept of baseload power is an example of what can go wrong when the government runs an industry.



And yet the labor party is against selling the power infrastructure, citing "increased costs".
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #126 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:50pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
TheFunPolice wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.


Big Ol doesn't know what baseload is: how many years have we been telling him this now?



You can't remember to take your medications, how many years have we been telling you this now?


Big ol can't remember when he last shot someone to 'prove' a point  Cheesy

Big ol can't remember when he last shot someone to 'prove' a point  Cheesy


Big ol can't remember when he last shot someone to 'prove' a point  Cheesy








Big ol can't remember when he last shot someone to 'prove' a point  Cheesyi






Big ol can't remember when he last shot someone to 'prove' a point  Cheesy



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Reply #127 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:52pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
Manufacturing does not need a steady constant supply of electricity. A lot of them only operate while the sun shines.



If you are running some kind of metallurgy operation you need to run the kilns non stop. Otherwise they take valuable hours to get to operating temperature.

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
It does not "need" to be that way - it's just your hysterical, emotional over-reaction to change.



More like your hysterical reaction to the fact that in some circumstances it does have to be that way.

The price goes up: free markets hey brother  Cheesy
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Reply #128 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:53pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
[quote author=freediver link=1528478927/123#123 date=1529126157]
Manufacturing does not need a steady constant supply of electricity. A lot of them only operate while the sun shines.



If you are running some kind of metallurgy operation you need to run the kilns non stop. Otherwise they take valuable hours to get to operating temperature.

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
It does not "need" to be that way - it's just your hysterical, emotional over-reaction to change.



More like your hysterical reaction to the fact that
in some circumstances it does have to be that way.[/
quote]
In some circumstances it may have to be costed more in the market place?
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Reply #129 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:56pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
The industry has moved on, but the politics lags by a decade or two, fueled by ignorance and scaremongering.



Yep. you can "rely" on renewables if you have no manufacturing industry. we haven't reached tat point yet.

You outlined the world 'rely' for some reason: why?

Oh, and who is 'we' btw?

Yes, Mr Charlatan: we all know who you are broseph!  Wink Wink
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Reply #130 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 4:16pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:56pm:
You outlined the world 'rely' for some reason: why?



Because renewables are intermittent, or haven't you learned that yet?

TheFunPolice wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:56pm:
Oh, and who is 'we' btw?



Australia.
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Reply #131 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 4:26pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
Manufacturing does not need a steady constant supply of electricity. A lot of them only operate while the sun shines.



If you are running some kind of metallurgy operation you need to run the kilns non stop. Otherwise they take valuable hours to get to operating temperature.

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
It does not "need" to be that way - it's just your hysterical, emotional over-reaction to change.



More like your hysterical reaction to the fact that in some circumstances it does have to be that way.


What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power?
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Reply #132 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 4:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power?



So after initially denying the need for baseload power you want to quantify it? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #133 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:20pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 4:28pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power?



So after initially denying the need for baseload power you want to quantify it? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


I still insist it is a meaningless concept. Now I want you to realise that you do also.
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Reply #134 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:20pm:
I still insist it is a meaningless concept.



yeah we don't need no stinkin' reliability of power supply. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #135 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:40pm
 
Have I found another question you cannot possibly give a straight answer to?

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #136 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:49pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:39am:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 6:03pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
The bigger money spinner is the bloody wind farms.

Cost a fortune, made from materials from mining & petroleum products, are as reliable as solar & turn the landscape into an environmental eyesore.

coal power stations are so pretty, specially if your downwind..... Wink Wink
once they r built how much does it cost for the ongoing wind they use....
hmmm how about coal for a coal station ? Wink Wink


Modern ones have virtually no smell ... nothing like an aluminium refinery & it's corrosive lung busting air pollution as well as its massive tailings dams.

As for the ongoing wind costs ... totally the point .... the fact that can't be 100 % reliable ... in fact for any reasonable constant requirement they are very unreliable.

Believe it or not when the wind don't blow da windmill don't go. And that stuffs reliability big time.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/01/how-reliable-is-wind-power/

and how many of these "clean" coal stations r in Australia ? Wink Wink


None ... but we can build them ... the Japanese are.

Technology changes for all industry. Why would you discount more efficient/less polluting technology being able to be applied to coal fired power stations? 
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Reply #137 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.
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Reply #138 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 7:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you? That was literally the stupidest example you could have thought of.


If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?  Roll Eyes
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Reply #139 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 7:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:31pm:
Baseload is a crude misrepresentation of both the supply and the demand side of our electricity industry that has been latched onto by climate change deniers and turned from a historical accident into an imaginary necessity.

All power stations are intermittent to some extent. All electricity users can tolerate breaks in supply and variations in supply price, because the few that absolutely 'need' continuous power have some kind of backup already.


In this debate you are way off beam. Roll Eyes
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Reply #140 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 7:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.


Diesel vehicles on our streets have absolutely nothing to do with the capacity to produce consistent base load power to all areas of our society.

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Reply #141 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 7:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:40pm:
Have I found another question you cannot possibly give a straight answer to?



Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?

Can it be you don't know? Quelle horreur. Wink
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Reply #142 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.
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Reply #143 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:08pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?



I believe the way it supposed to work on existing hydro plants is that excess electricity provided in daylight wind/solar/hydro pumps enough water back up the hill to provide power when the sun is not shining. No idea what you mean by salt water. Night time is not a real user of power hence why we have off peak pricing for it.

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Reply #144 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:22pm
 
The problem with pumped storage is you have to have 2 dams, one above the other.

As anybody knows building a dam means drowning some land. For pumped storage that is 2 sections of drowned land. The greenies won't allow that.
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Reply #145 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:28pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:22pm:
The problem with pumped storage is you have to have 2 dams, one above the other.

As anybody knows building a dam means drowning some land. For pumped storage that is 2 sections of drowned land. The greenies won't allow that.


Why do you need two dams? I can't see that necessity. You pick up water where it is at the bottom of it's fall and send it back to the top. It requires a supply of water, not a dam. You don't have to reclaim all of it.

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Reply #146 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:49pm
 
Two dams is normally how they do it, though generally at least one of those dams is there primarily for another purpose. We have plenty of dams already for our water supply, for example, with far more water than a pumped storage facility could need. Or, you could use the ocean as someone suggested, though I have not seen this done.

You don't want to be relying on a waterfall that might run dry. Plus, waterfalls are generally pretty areas that people are emotionally attached to.

The lower dam is typically the one that floods the prime agricultural plain - but that is the dam that already exists for our water supply. The second dam is higher than that and is usually in a low value area - up in the hills - the sort of land that typically ends up in national park because the farmers and developers never touched it. They also tend to be far smaller than water storage dams.

If you are in an existing waterfall scenario, there is typically no need to add a reverse pumping capability, because the river or creek will refill the dam for you. These ones often run at full power all the time. If you have enough storage on the uphill side and enough generation capacity relative to the water supply, you could turn them on and off in response to demand changes and achieve the same thing without needing to pump uphill.
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Reply #147 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Two dams is normally how they do it, though generally at least one of those dams is there primarily for another purpose. We have plenty of dams already for our water supply, for example, with far more water than a pumped storage facility could need. Or, you could use the ocean as someone suggested, though I have not seen this done.

You don't want to be relying on a waterfall that might run dry. Plus, waterfalls are generally pretty areas that people are emotionally attached to.

The lower dam is typically the one that floods the prime agricultural plain - but that is the dam that already exists for our water supply. The second dam is higher than that and is usually in a low value area - up in the hills - the sort of land that typically ends up in national park because the farmers and developers never touched it. They also tend to be far smaller than water storage dams.

If you are in an existing waterfall scenario, there is typically no need to add a reverse pumping capability, because the river or creek will refill the dam for you. These ones often run at full power all the time. If you have enough storage on the uphill side and enough generation capacity relative to the water supply, you could turn them on and off in response to demand changes and achieve the same thing without needing to pump uphill.


How it has been proposed for the Snowy is not like that. It's picking up "used water" at the bottom of the generators and sending it back to the top using daytime solar wind or excess hydro power. This would make one presume that the catchment could not keep up with the flow required, hence the topping up by pumping.
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Reply #148 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:30pm
 
Can they run the existing generators backwards, or do they need to build a whole new infrastructure?

It would also require them to have the storage capacity at the top that is not already being used regularly, and that the existing generators are over designed for the available flows - not how the old systems were generally built.
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Reply #149 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:30pm:
Can they run the existing generators backwards, or do they need to build a whole new infrastructure?

It would also require them to have the storage capacity at the top that is not already being used regularly, and that the existing generators are over designed for the available flows - not how the old systems were generally built.


Huh?

It's simply using excess power generation to pump water back where it can generate electricity again in the future. Passed back through the turbines when more power is needed. I'm not sure all the turbines are run at 100% capacity as it is. We could build a couple more turbines to generate baseload and use excess to put water back where it came from. Wind, solar and Hydro are cheap. Using the excess of those to make sure there is water needed for all turbines to produce as much as possible when they need to is not a bad idea.
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Reply #150 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.


You're joking right? The extraction of gas by hydraulic fracking not only can contaminate underground aquifers it contaminate soils from spillage & the recovered contaminated water/chemical cocktail.

Well heads release gases all the time that are not visible to the human eye.

In comparison to an open cut mine the gas process just covers/disguises it's footprint better.
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Reply #151 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am
 
,,,
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Reply #152 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:26am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.


You're joking right? The extraction of gas by hydraulic fracking not only can contaminate underground aquifers it contaminate soils from spillage & the recovered contaminated water/chemical cocktail.

Well heads release gases all the time that are not visible to the human eye.

In comparison to an open cut mine the gas process just covers/disguises it's footprint better.


"This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage."

Oh, dearie, dearie me - and all this time we've been fed the line that penalty rates and such are no longer relevant because every hour of every day is the same as any other.... oh, dear.. what will the ideologues say now?  Grin
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #153 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:35am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.


You're joking right? The extraction of gas by hydraulic fracking not only can contaminate underground aquifers it contaminate soils from spillage & the recovered contaminated water/chemical cocktail.

Well heads release gases all the time that are not visible to the human eye.

In comparison to an open cut mine the gas process just covers/disguises it's footprint better.


Gas has a lower carbon footprint. It's not an accounting trick. It's basic chemistry.

Quote:
oh, dear.. what will the ideologues say now?


They'll say things like states that are remote from themselves need to emit more GHG's, and they don't understand what per capita means so we are not allowed to mention it.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #154 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 11:36am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.



So let's try to distil that.

"There is no such thing as baseload power, but hospitals have no-break power supplies, in case the non-existent baseload power fails." Huh

Micro baseload power

Baseload power simply means that power is available when needed.

Switching on a light at night to get a drink of water, see to the baby - uses baseload power.

The fridge thermostat switches in - uses baseload power.

In how many households a night would that occur? You want people to go back to candles?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #155 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 11:39am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:35am:
They'll say things like states that are remote from themselves need to emit more GHG's, and they don't understand what per capita means so we are not allowed to mention it.



freediver has discovered emission free transportation. Wink

No one is stopping you mentioning per capita. You just have to show that per capita all things are equal.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #156 - Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm
 
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #157 - Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network?


Whatever is needed to at any given moment. How many hospitals etc? Should high rise buildings be totally self-reliant? Should they be allowed to use lifts?

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Do you agree with me that it is 0%?



No. Do you want power for lights, fridges when needed or just when this non-baseload power is available?


freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?



Let's see. WA is a large state, SA is a large state. NT is not a state but is large, Queensland is a large state. By comparison NSW is a smaller state, Victoria is smaller again and Tasmania is the dag off the bottom end.

WA, SA, Qld, NT and NSW figure in the list for largest states in the world, so I guess they qualify. Wink

https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-largest-state-in-the-world

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.



And you have found the mythical emission free transport. Better patent it.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #158 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
Whatever is needed to at any given moment.


So the demand for baseload power varies on a minute by minute basis?

Tell us again what you think baseload means. Then try giving a straight answer for once.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #159 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 1:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
So the demand for baseload power varies on a minute by minute basis?


Yes. Power on an As Needs Basis.

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
Tell us again what you think baseload means.



Redundant. Answered above.

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
Then try giving a straight answer for once.



So you don't understand what an "As Needs Basis" is? Do you want to read at night, without using a hurricane lamp? Do you want to catch a lift to the top of St Martin's Tower Sydney? Do you want your operation in hospital to be suspended?

That is straight. You need baseload power for that. How would calculate your prior need? Without calculating prior need how would you know your need for baseload power?

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network?



Do you want that on a per capita basis? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

But seriously see the answer above. Then show us your workings that show it as zero (your statement). Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #160 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 9:43am
 
Australias Stupidity

A nation sleepwalking into penury!

Over the past decade subsidies and hand-outs have resulted in the spending of around $50 billion of our nation’s limited and precious capital on so-called ’’renewables’’ - solar & wind Power.

Untold billions more have been spent to upgrade transmission lines to connect these to the grid.

For that money, we could have instead built 10 new HELE coal fired power stations (which would have lowered Co2 emissions) and had change left over to build 10 new Adelaide Hospitals (the most expensive ever built in the world).

Yet this ‘’investment’’ (or should we say ’malinvesment’) has hollowed out the baseload generation of the nation, causing wholesale electricity prices to triple, and at times resulting in power having to be cut to our nation’s aluminium smelters to avoid blackouts.

And on 9/6/2018 at 6pm, when demand peaked at 6pm, at just over 26,000 MW - that $50 billion spent on wind and solar was only providing 100MW - that’s less than 0.4% or 1/260th of total demand. Bit of a bugger when the wind don't blow and the sun don't glow and the power stations don't go (no more).


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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #161 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 8:42pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 9:43am:
Australias Stupidity

A nation sleepwalking into penury!

Over the past decade subsidies and hand-outs have resulted in the spending of around $50 billion of our nation’s limited and precious capital on so-called ’’renewables’’ - solar & wind Power.

Untold billions more have been spent to upgrade transmission lines to connect these to the grid.

For that money, we could have instead built 10 new HELE coal fired power stations (which would have lowered Co2 emissions) and had change left over to build 10 new Adelaide Hospitals (the most expensive ever built in the world).

Yet this ‘’investment’’ (or should we say ’malinvesment’) has hollowed out the baseload generation of the nation, causing wholesale electricity prices to triple, and at times resulting in power having to be cut to our nation’s aluminium smelters to avoid blackouts.

And on 9/6/2018 at 6pm, when demand peaked at 6pm, at just over 26,000 MW - that $50 billion spent on wind and solar was only providing 100MW - that’s less than 0.4% or 1/260th of total demand. Bit of a bugger when the wind don't blow and the sun don't glow and the power stations don't go (no more).




Peak demand is actually at midday in the middle of summer - when solar panels happen to have peak output.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #162 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 2:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
Peak demand is actually at midday in the middle of summer - when solar panels happen to have peak output.



"For many, the Australian summer is a time for family, beach, outdoor fun and keeping cool under our strong southern sun. For the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO), summer is also when Australia’s energy system is under the most strain due to high consumer demand (like when we all turn on our air conditioners at 6PM) and extreme weather events like bushfires."

"Energy fast facts

    The power system is under the most strain during high demand days between 4PM to 7PM, most commonly during periods of extreme heat (38 degrees plus)."

http://energylive.aemo.com.au/Editors-Picks/Energy-facts-and-safety-tips-for-sum...

I guess most people aren't home during the day, being at work or outside.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #163 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 3:12pm
 
It's surprisingly difficult to find graphs of this. Here is one:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/graph-of-the-day-how-solar-pv-slashed-electricity-de
mand-65926/

...
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #164 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 3:30pm
 
Oh a graph of energy consumption decline? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #165 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 8:40am
 
Did you notice that your plot of electricity demand through the day was for June 9, in Australia?
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Reply #166 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 12:27pm
 
So peak demand doesn't appear to vary very much summer or winter. Round meal times.
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Reply #167 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:34pm
 
Quote:
So peak demand doesn't appear to vary very much summer or winter. Round meal times.


Can you prove that? Why would you produce the daily demand cycle from the middle of winter to back this up?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #168 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 4:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:34pm:
Can you prove that? Why would you produce the daily demand cycle from the middle of winter to back this up?


Yes indeed. So where did I do that?

What I quoted was text from AEMO.

lee wrote on Jun 22nd, 2018 at 2:58pm:
"For many, the Australian summer is a time for family, beach, outdoor fun and keeping cool under our strong southern sun. For the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO), summer is also when Australia’s energy system is under the most strain due to high consumer demand (like when we all turn on our air conditioners at 6PM) and extreme weather events like bushfires."

"Energy fast facts

    The power system is under the most strain during high demand days between 4PM to 7PM, most commonly during periods of extreme heat (38 degrees plus)."

http://energylive.aemo.com.au/Editors-Picks/Energy-facts-and-safety-tips-for-sum...

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Reply #169 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 9:54am
 
Quote:
Yes indeed. So where did I do that?


The only evidence you have provided showing actual demand levels throughout the day is from the middle of winter
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #170 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 12:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 9:54am:
The only evidence you have provided showing actual demand levels throughout the day is from the middle of winter



Sorry. That appears to be Gnads. What evidence have I shown for winter?
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Reply #171 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 12:25pm
 
My bad. Yes, it was Gnads.

So the only evidence that has been presented showing actual consumption variation during the day is Gnads' graph from mid winter showing the evening spike at slightly higher than the midday one, and mine from summer showing one dominant peak in the middle of the day.
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Reply #172 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 1:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 12:25pm:
So the only evidence that has been presented showing actual consumption variation during the day is Gnads' graph from mid winter showing the evening spike at slightly higher than the midday one, and mine from summer showing one dominant peak in the middle of the day.



except what has been written by the Australian Energy market Operator (AEMO) as I posted.

lee wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 4:35pm:
The power system is under the most strain during high demand days between 4PM to 7PM,


Most strain (maximum energy usage) between 4PM and 7PM.
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Reply #173 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 1:34pm
 
...

Increasing demand Victoria through the afternoon. 28January 2018
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Reply #174 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 3:48pm
 
Did you notice only the "Victoria" box was ticked?
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Reply #175 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 3:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 3:48pm:
Did you notice only the "Victoria" box was ticked?



yes. if you want another state feel free. Or make an assumption that electricity usage Australia wide would follow a similar pattern. Wink
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Reply #176 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 3:56pm
 
You do realise it's a screen dump, not an interactive thing right?

Don't you think it's strange that the most basic info on this is so hard to come by?
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Reply #177 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 9:43am:
Australias Stupidity

A nation sleepwalking into penury!

Over the past decade subsidies and hand-outs have resulted in the spending of around $50 billion of our nation’s limited and precious capital on so-called ’’renewables’’ - solar & wind Power.

Untold billions more have been spent to upgrade transmission lines to connect these to the grid.

For that money, we could have instead built 10 new HELE coal fired power stations (which would have lowered Co2 emissions) and had change left over to build 10 new Adelaide Hospitals (the most expensive ever built in the world).

Yet this ‘’investment’’ (or should we say ’malinvesment’) has hollowed out the baseload generation of the nation, causing wholesale electricity prices to triple, and at times resulting in power having to be cut to our nation’s aluminium smelters to avoid blackouts.

And on 9/6/2018 at 6pm, when demand peaked at 6pm, at just over 26,000 MW - that $50 billion spent on wind and solar was only providing 100MW - that’s less than 0.4% or 1/260th of total demand. Bit of a bugger when the wind don't blow and the sun don't glow and the power stations don't go (no more).




Peak demand is actually at midday in the middle of summer - when solar panels happen to have peak output.


Grin Grin Grin

Yeah everyone is at home at midday cooking a hot roast dinner  Roll Eyes

Afternoons into early evenings is the peak period when people are all at home ... evening meals & ACs turned on.

It shows that at around 6pm on the graph ... not the slight rise at 9.00am.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #178 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 22nd, 2018 at 3:12pm:
It's surprisingly difficult to find graphs of this. Here is one:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/graph-of-the-day-how-solar-pv-slashed-electricity-de
mand-65926/

https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/MEI-solar-demand-reductio...


I found the graphs I posted no trouble & they're recent not 4 years plus older.
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Reply #179 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:37pm
 
Yes Gnads, you found graphs from the middle of winter.
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Reply #180 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:44pm
 
So? ... people use reverse cycle air conditioners don't they?

After all the energy companies all say that's the cheapest heating energy.

And industry would use the same power summer or winter ......

and not everyone in Australia lives in a climate that has extremes in both those seasons.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #181 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:53pm
 
...

The summer electricity load curve for households in NSW
Source: EMET Consultants Pty Ltd

https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/how-do-i-use-electricity-throughout-the-day-...
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Reply #182 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 10:15pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:53pm:


So peak consumption is at midnight? Do you ever stop and ask yourself whether it makes sense before you post it?
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Reply #183 - Jun 24th, 2018 at 11:11pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 6:53pm:


I'm dumbfounded that "pool pump" has it's own band, seriously?

I'm seriously deprived. I have no aircon, heating, pool pumps, dishwashers, on demand HW, clothes dryers, waterbeds, ranges or freezers...

Let alone the money to heat space! Grin
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« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2018 at 11:17pm by Setanta »  

nu ninda an ezzateni watar ma ekuteni
 
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aquascoot
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #184 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 6:16am
 
it will eventually be the number 1 issue in australian politics.

cheap power is the backbone of a competitive economy.

coal is cheaper and more reliable then wind or solar.

coal is going to keep being dug up and sold to our direct trading competitors.

china and india are surging ahead.

china is now the biggest provider of aid to the pacific islands and new guinea.

they will continue to push hard to control australia.

they own ports and agricultural land.

india is also gathering strength.

40 % of Ph D students and 40 % of new entrepreneurs in the USA are indian.

the chinese and the indians will GLADLY burn our coal and then buy our country out from under our feet as our businesses go broke tying to pay for expensive wind and solar power.

wind power is european owned and installed and the profits go back to europe.

they are rent seekers.

right now, at 6.12 am,  wind is providing 4 % of the power to the national grid.



soon australia will face a choice....build coal fired power stations or become a third world country with indian and chinese owners of business.

and if the unions think that they get a bad deal from employers now, just wait til all profitable businesses are run by chinese or indian interests. Wink Wink Wink.

those guys care nought for penalty rates or OH and S.

so wake up, ditch the reknewable energy gaurantee and start building coal fired power stations here.

it really is that simple
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #185 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 11:14am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
So peak consumption is at midnight? Do you ever stop and ask yourself whether it makes sense before you post it?



Hey, it's from the renewables sector. Would they lie?Wink

Perhaps you like this one? Also from Solar Choice.

...
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #186 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 11:57am
 
Quote:
The biggest snake oil salesman selling the worlds biggest snake oil, green dreams, is predictably imploding!

Shareholders tried to sack him, Tesla sales are plummeting, share prices are crushing, profitability is an impossibility and rocket ships to nowhere remain a fantasy! !

All the billions he's conned and been burning has come from low IQ PC government MPs around world......Real businessman wouldn't dream of giving him a cent, they can add up!

The good news is that his disastrous but predictable collapse could be the final straw for green scams and climate myths globally!

https://trib.al/WmeTAqK


Always thought Elon Musk was a snake oil salesman.  Roll Eyes

Sth Australia got sucked in by him.  Grin Grin
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #187 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 12:23pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
So peak consumption is at midnight? Do you ever stop and ask yourself whether it makes sense before you post it?



Hey, it's from the renewables sector. Would they lie?Wink

Perhaps you like this one? Also from Solar Choice.

https://www.solarchoice.net.au/wp-content/uploads/Average-NSW-household-in-summe...


That's from your high school assignment, isn't it?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #188 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 1:08pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 11:57am:
Quote:
The biggest snake oil salesman selling the worlds biggest snake oil, green dreams, is predictably imploding!

Shareholders tried to sack him, Tesla sales are plummeting, share prices are crushing, profitability is an impossibility and rocket ships to nowhere remain a fantasy! !

All the billions he's conned and been burning has come from low IQ PC government MPs around world......Real businessman wouldn't dream of giving him a cent, they can add up!

The good news is that his disastrous but predictable collapse could be the final straw for green scams and climate myths globally!

https://trib.al/WmeTAqK


Always thought Elon Musk was a snake oil salesman.  Roll Eyes

Sth Australia got sucked in by him.  Grin Grin

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin
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Your home away from home—just click on the  button below. Bookmark the link to the real PA.
 
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #189 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 1:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 12:23pm:
That's from your high school assignment, isn't it?



Poor freediver. Lost out again.

I know; maybe Queensland has a different usage pattern. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #190 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:45pm
 
So which one do you think is correct? The one with peak consumption at midnight or the one made by a 12 year old with excel?
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #191 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:45pm:
So which one do you think is correct? The one with peak consumption at midnight or the one made by a 12 year old with excel?



I don't give a toss. Why don't you provide the one that shows peak demand at midday? Wink

Or you can use this one from clean technica for SA.

...

That seems to show good solar at 7 pm. must be a good system. Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #192 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 10:00pm
 
Quote:
I don't give a toss.


Obviously.

Quote:
Why don't you provide the one that shows peak demand at midday?


I did. It was the first one I found on google.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #193 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 10:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 10:00pm:
I did. It was the first one I found on google.



Where abouts? it seems to have disappeared.

That one above rooftop solar peak output at 7pm. Even the manufacturers wouldn't give those figures. And you talk about dodgy excel. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #194 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 10:29pm
 
Or electricity usage from Horizon power WA.

...

Nope. peak demand is still evening.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #195 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 7:16pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 10:00pm:
I did. It was the first one I found on google.



Where abouts? it seems to have disappeared.

That one above rooftop solar peak output at 7pm. Even the manufacturers wouldn't give those figures. And you talk about dodgy excel. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


It's still there Lee, in this thread, two pages back, along with our very recent discussion of it.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #196 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 7:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2018 at 7:16pm:
It's still there Lee, in this thread, two pages back, along with our very recent discussion of it.



Oh you mean three pages back. The one showing electricity consumption decline? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #197 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 7:56pm
 
"The biggest declines, however, come in area 4, where solar PV plays a major role. This has knocked up to 3GW off demand in the middle of the day."

https://reneweconomy.com.au/graph-of-the-day-how-solar-pv-slashed-electricity-de...

...

And your graph shows a peak of about 3GW, which is the saving, not the peak solar output.

also -

"That accounts for around 1GW of reduction on average. In the early morning, from about 2am (area 2) there have been demand reductions of nearly 1.5GW due to the phasing-out and/or improved efficiency of resistive-electric ‘‘off-peak water heaters’’. Remember, these were introduced to keep the coal-fired generators busy during the night."

it is not solar at 2am either.
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