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Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies. (Read 5274 times)
Sad Kangaroo
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #45 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 11:53am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley


No doubt, but the demand will drop as it is slowly transitioned away from being used in bult for energy.
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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #46 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 12:47pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


You can live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, whether it be steak or rolled oats. Just don't pretend you are being forced to transport your food from thousands of miles away, or that you deserve special dispensation on the GHG emissions you cause.
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BigOl64
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #47 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:04pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 11:53am:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley


No doubt, but the demand will drop as it is slowly transitioned away from being used in bult for energy.



Once they spend many trillions of dollars for batteries, maybe, but until then $200 / tonne is the way most countries are going, except us of course, because we are run by cretins.


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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #48 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 12:47pm:
You can live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, whether it be steak or rolled oats. Just don't pretend you are being forced to transport your food from thousands of miles away, or that you deserve special dispensation on the GHG emissions you cause.


I assume Germany also transports goods and peple, bur apparently that's ok.

So in the NT - you wouldn't be forced to transport cereals,tea, coffee, milk, sugar, jams, spreads, condiments. You would just go without?

And then apart from food in the NT-

You would go without bedding?

o ones forcing them to sleep on a mattress; hey?

And in the south eastern corner you would go without sugar?


And Australia wide you would go without cotton sheets?
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #49 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:20pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:53am:
yes at present but in 20-30 years you really think renewable sources wont be matured enough for base load .



That's a supposition.DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world



"Working with industry partners BlueScope Steel and Arrium, we have developed a low-emission integrated steelmaking process based on two technologies.

Using charcoal to replace a portion of the coal and coke used in steelmaking is the first way to significantly reduce carbon dioxide emissions without substantially modifying the steelworks. An innovative technique to produce charcoal has been developed and produces ‘designer biochar’ which can be made to meet the demands of eight potential applications involved in steelmaking."

https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/MRF/Areas/Community-and-environment/Responsible...

But feel free to prove your point.
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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #50 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 12:47pm:
You can live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, whether it be steak or rolled oats. Just don't pretend you are being forced to transport your food from thousands of miles away, or that you deserve special dispensation on the GHG emissions you cause.


I assume Germany also transports goods and peple, bur apparently that's ok.

So in the NT - you wouldn't be forced to transport cereals,tea, coffee, milk, sugar, jams, spreads, condiments. You would just go without?

And then apart from food in the NT-

You would go without bedding?

o ones forcing them to sleep on a mattress; hey?

And in the south eastern corner you would go without sugar?


And Australia wide you would go without cotton sheets?


It's OK for everyone to do it. Just don't pretend you are forced to because you live in a large country. We would not suddenly start emitting fewer per capita GHG emissions if we split the country down the middle.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #51 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
It's OK for everyone to do it. Just don't pretend you are forced to because you live in a large country.



I don't remember saying people were "forced" to do anything. I just said that being a large country we have transport issues, which are more evident here than a country the size of Germany. Those transport issues lead to higher CO2 emissions.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
We would not suddenly start emitting fewer per capita GHG emissions if we split the country down the middle.



Hm. If we split the country down the middle that would infer 2 countries. That would indeed lead to smaller GHG's in each country.
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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #52 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm
 
Quote:
Hm. If we split the country down the middle that would infer 2 countries. That would indeed lead to smaller GHG's in each country.


The per capita emissions would be the same.

Quote:
I don't remember saying people were "forced" to do anything. I just said that being a large country we have transport issues, which are more evident here than a country the size of Germany. Those transport issues lead to higher CO2 emissions.


It's crap. And as evidence, you posted someone else haivng the same guess. Unless the government is blocking imports, where you draw the borders has little influence on your transport footprint. People in the very far north have far bigger transport issues because for more than half the year nothing grows there at all, and what they do grow they are sick of the sight of.

Borders are arbitrary lines. They split people into big and small groups. But we still send stuff to each other when we need to.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #53 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
The per capita emissions would be the same.



That would only be true if the emissions and the populations remained in the same ratio. If the emissions remained large but the population dropped; then the emissions per capita would vary.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
It's crap. And as evidence, you posted someone else haivng the same guess.


And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
People in the very far north have far bigger transport issues because for more than half the year nothing grows there at all, and what they do grow they are sick of the sight of.



Ah; you mean like wheat? No, that doesn't work; they don't grow wheat.

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
Borders are arbitrary lines. They split people into big and small groups. But we still send stuff to each other when we need to.


Yes. And that imposes a transport cost in terms of GHG's. So who should be liable for these GHG's?
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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #54 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:22pm
 
Quote:
And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.


All it takes is a mental experiment. Count the country in half down the middle. The per capita emissions do not halve. what you propose is clearly absurd - that the size of the circle you draw around people changes their behaviour.

You have neither evidence nor reason on your side.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #55 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 9:12pm
 
If we send live sheep and cattle overseas for halal meat markets, etc, which country do their farts count in?
This is not a joke, bum emissions rank high on the greenhouse gas list, so if they fart here, but get eaten there, whose per capita emissions should the farts be counted in?

AGW poses so many complex issues.
Too many posit simple answers, when they are not really applicable.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #56 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 10:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.


All it takes is a mental experiment. Count the country in half down the middle. The per capita emissions do not halve. what you propose is clearly absurd - that the size of the circle you draw around people changes their behaviour.

You have neither evidence nor reason on your side.


GHG emissions and population by state -

NSW - 131.6Mt pop. 7.7M per capita 17.09

Qld - 151.8Mt pop. 4.9M per capita 30.98

Victoria - 113.9Mt  pop. 6.15M per capita 18.52

WA - 82.2Mt pop. 2.64M per capita 31.14

SA - 26.3Mt pop. 1.71M per capita 15.38

NT - 16.5Mt pop. 2.445k per capita 67.48

Tas - -0.1Mt pop. 519k per capita -0.19

ACT - 1.7Mt pop. 401.7K per capita 4.23

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/a97b89a6-d103-4355-8044-3b...

http://www.population.net.au/states/

When the per capita emissions by state vary by that much; it doesn't bode well for your proposition.

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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #57 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:40pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 10:17pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
And as evidence of your opinion you have provided nothing.


All it takes is a mental experiment. Count the country in half down the middle. The per capita emissions do not halve. what you propose is clearly absurd - that the size of the circle you draw around people changes their behaviour.

You have neither evidence nor reason on your side.


GHG emissions and population by state -

NSW - 131.6Mt pop. 7.7M per capita 17.09

Qld - 151.8Mt pop. 4.9M per capita 30.98

Victoria - 113.9Mt  pop. 6.15M per capita 18.52

WA - 82.2Mt pop. 2.64M per capita 31.14

SA - 26.3Mt pop. 1.71M per capita 15.38

NT - 16.5Mt pop. 2.445k per capita 67.48

Tas - -0.1Mt pop. 519k per capita -0.19

ACT - 1.7Mt pop. 401.7K per capita 4.23

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/a97b89a6-d103-4355-8044-3b...

http://www.population.net.au/states/

When the per capita emissions by state vary by that much; it doesn't bode well for your proposition.



If SA succeeded, would it's per capita emissions go down by a factor of 6?
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #58 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 1:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
If SA succeeded, would it's per capita emissions go down by a factor of 6?



I assume you meat seceded. But does it matter? It shows that across Australia emissions vary per capita. Some dependant on the type of energy provided and some that the warmer states have higher emissions. The idea that Australians' really have a similar carbon footprint is false.

Having a per capita metric merely makes it convenient for GHG accounting purposes.
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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #59 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 6:08pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
If SA succeeded, would it's per capita emissions go down by a factor of 6?



I assume you meat seceded. But does it matter? It shows that across Australia emissions vary per capita. Some dependant on the type of energy provided and some that the warmer states have higher emissions. The idea that Australians' really have a similar carbon footprint is false.

Having a per capita metric merely makes it convenient for GHG accounting purposes.


Yes it matters. It proves that I am right and you are wrong. What you say about our emissions has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the country. We could divide Australia up into a dozen countries and the per capita emissions would be pretty much the same.

Your ideas fail the logic test, well before we get to the evidence side of things.
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