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Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies. (Read 6934 times)
lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #30 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:45pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
I appreciate your interest in the issue, but I'm not going to bother with a zealot who judges the legitimacy of information based on if it supports their opinion or not.

I won't waste either of our time.



So you can't refute it? Too bad.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #31 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm
 
Of course I can, but I've seen how pointless it is with you. 

You reject every piece of evidence put to you, you don't justify why or how you just reject it.

Your replies are full of strawmen and logical fallacies and it always results in personal attacks.

Tell me what is the point?

The topic of this thread is coal not being a dying industry.

Even if you ignore the climate change aspect (you know, and not ignore the bulk of my reply) it will soon enough be more expensive to use coal as a fuel source.  While this isn't going to happen tomorrow, it will happen.

Those in the industry now, especially those in their sunset years will likely be fine, but those just starting out, they'll need to diversify their skillset and save what they can from their earnings now. 

The glory days of coal are over.

Clinging to it rather than the industry and energy sources of the future, especially if doing so based on some ideological grudge to give the middle finger to green groups is just moronic.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #32 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:03pm
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Of course I can, but I've seen how pointless it is with you.

You reject every piece of evidence put to you, you don't justify why or how you just reject it.



Show me the evidence. Not climate models because they are not evidence.

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Your replies are full of strawmen and logical fallacies and it always results in personal attacks.



You mean after i am attacked? Otherwise please a direct quote.

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
The topic of this thread is coal not being a dying industry.



True. But you were the one raised "climate change".

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Even if you ignore the climate change aspect (you know, and not ignore the bulk of my reply) it will soon enough be more expensive to use coal as a fuel source.  While this isn't going to happen tomorrow, it will happen.


it most certainly may. But until we have dispatchable power that can be used for steel, aluminium it is off in the future.

Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Clinging to it rather than the industry and energy sources of the future, especially if doing so based on some ideological grudge to give the middle finger to green groups is just moronic.



Yes. But first you must achieve those dispatchable energy sources.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #33 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Do we need more GHG emissions than the Danish because we get mangoes from Cairns and mandarins from South America, while they have to eat cabbage, rollmops and whatever else can be grown in their borders?


Do those people who don't live in Sydney and Melbourne deserve food manufactured in the Southern States? Most food is manufactured in the South-East. You know like in Darwin? Should they be entitled to everyday groceries?

Should those people not on the eastern seaboard go without power, because most is generated there and it costs to reticulate it? Or should they be allowed to generate their own power, at reduced efficiency?

So let's compare Germany and Australia.

Size - Germany - ~357k Sq Km  Australia - ~7,692k Sq Km So Australia about 21 times larger

Population - Germany ~82.2Million Australia ~24.7Million So Australia has about 30% of the population.

One would assume seeing that Germany has a higher population density ratio the cost of  transport of goods would be far less. The cost of reticulation of power would be much less.

That would translate to higher energy expenditure; and higher CO2 emissions.


What would you "expect"?


Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.

And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right. There are billions of people in the world who don't demand food is shipped in from thousands of km away, and if they do get it they don't pretend the GHG emissions don't count. You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #34 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:31pm by lee »  
 
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UnSubRocky
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #35 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:37am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Go to Beijing and have a whiff of the city. Then consider that China is 50 times our population. Australia pollutes 5 times as much CO2 per person than China.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #36 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 2:51am
 
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:31pm:
Ajax wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Quote:
Per capita, a meaningless statistic used by economists to confuse people.


China's GDP is about ten times ours. They must be rich, eh?


Exactly what does it tell you.....?!?!?

Meaningless, means nothing.

Encomists jargon.... Wink 


The per capita GDP means a lot.

Are you saying it means nothing, or that you don't know what it means?


What does it mean......???

Australia GDP 1.2 trillion

Australian Population 24 million

1200,000,000,000 = 50,000
       24,000,000

What does it tell you...........????

Absolutely FA......................!!!!


Where did you get the extra 1.198 trillion Chinese from? There are 1.3 BILLION Chinese people. 25 million Australians.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #37 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 4:39am
 
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



Quote:
we should all live in the south-east corner


Well, all the nicest people do.
I quote one of the greatest Australians, when upon hearing of his wifes' pregnancy stated he was moving from England, back to home.
Barry Humphries said, "Being born Australian, is like winning the Lottery of Life." good stuff hey?
he did however continue to say,
"Being born VICTORIAN, IS WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE, TWICE!!!"

I must say I am glad they do not all live here, it well may start to look messy.

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BigOl64
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #38 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am
 
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #39 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:16am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Small countries, population wise, emit more CO2.


Crap.



Reference?

Smaller populations still need power. You think that that power is emission free? That larger power stations do not have an efficiency advantage over smaller power stations?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Quote:
Large countries, by land mass, emit more CO2.

Crap.




Reference?

So you think having to provide infrastructure over a large land mass is as energy efficient as providing infrastructure over a smaller land mass?

Perhaps you might like to expand your position.

Because it looks like CRAP.


That's how it works eh? You pull some absolute crap out of your arse. I call it for what it is. But I need to provide the evidence?

well that's how i've always thought it works FD
if I say the earth is round
you say that is crap
I think u would have to back that up.

or just be ignored as a troll, what would it be ? Wink Wink
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #40 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley

actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world   Wink Wink
I guess the question is will we be adapting and making new steel or will we by buying steel from other countries and not even selling the coal ? Wink Wink
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Gnads
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #41 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:31am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 4:39am:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



Quote:
we should all live in the south-east corner


Well, all the nicest people do.
I quote one of the greatest Australians, when upon hearing of his wifes' pregnancy stated he was moving from England, back to home.
Barry Humphries said, "Being born Australian, is like winning the Lottery of Life." good stuff hey?
he did however continue to say,
"Being born VICTORIAN, IS WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE, TWICE!!!"

I must say I am glad they do not all live here, it well may start to look messy.



Grin Grin Grin Grin You would have to be joking.

He may have well stayed in England ... the weather conditions are the same. 

Bloody Mexicans. Tongue
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DonDeeHippy
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #42 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:39am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:31am:
mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 4:39am:
lee wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Germany has far higher heating costs. That alone would outweigh everything else in the comparison.



Well you make a comparison with somewhere similar. it was merely an example.

BTW -  How does that impact the infrastructure costs?

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
And no, apples in Darwin is not some kind of fundamental human right.



Did you understand about manufactured foods? Oats, weet-bix types of products? Basic food stuffs.

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
You don't get special consideration for being spoilt and intellectually lazy.



Nope. And we should all live in the south-east corner so we can eat all we want and bugger the rest of Australia? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



Quote:
we should all live in the south-east corner


Well, all the nicest people do.
I quote one of the greatest Australians, when upon hearing of his wifes' pregnancy stated he was moving from England, back to home.
Barry Humphries said, "Being born Australian, is like winning the Lottery of Life." good stuff hey?
he did however continue to say,
"Being born VICTORIAN, IS WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE, TWICE!!!"

I must say I am glad they do not all live here, it well may start to look messy.



Grin Grin Grin Grin You would have to be joking.

He may have well stayed in England ... the weather conditions are the same. 

Bloody Mexicans. Tongue

I think he was talking about the south east corner of queensland..... utter madness if he wasnt Wink Wink
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Gnads
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #43 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:39am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley

actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world   Wink Wink
I guess the question is will we be adapting and making new steel or will we by buying steel from other countries and not even selling the coal ? Wink Wink


And what will be powering those smelters?

If it's electricity then those smelters will require coal fired power stations to base load power capable of maintaining the levels of demand required for industrial smelting ......

whether or not coking coal is used in it's production.

Renewables at present are not capable of providing base load power for cities & industries like steel & aluminium manufacturing.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #44 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:53am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:39am:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Sad Kangaroo wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:36pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Valkie wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 3:26pm:
It has to last just a couple more years.

Then I retire and I couldn't give a rats posterior.



Yeah Im coming off LNG and heading back to mining very soon. 10 more years and Im done too.


I do sympathise that you rely on an industry of the past that the developed world is slowly moving away from, slowly.

IT, while not being moved away from is a sector that is facing offshoring all the time.  We've been through a great culling and with automation increasing, it's getting harder and harder to make a dollar even if local businesses want to deal with locals rather than Indian or Philippino call centres.

It has to be hard if all you've ever done is enjoy great pay while working in the mining industry and never branched out into another trade when the writing was on the wall.

But things change.

Upon reading that back it comes off very crass.  I've had a 6 month stint of IT work for some mines in Queensland, so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy work for those out there, for easy and large pay.

That said, I hated my work there.  My role was to handle the infrastructure to support the drone and driverless truck pilot.  I'm glad the tech in the pilot failed.  Our infrastructure was great, but I had become friends with a lot of the guys whose jobs would have been lost to automation if the pilot was more successful.

I've never been happier to be a part of something that failed.

For now the world still needs coal.  Will that change in the 10 years you have left?  Unlikely, but the world will rely less and less on it, especially as alternative energy sources become cheaper and energy transmission and storage more efficient.

You can't deny that the future is not coal.

I feel the most for the young fellas who've fought their way into the industry given the current decline and the competition for those who are attracted to the pay and don't have the family burdens that make FIFO so hard.

If they're not diversifying now they're going to in a world of pain in the not too distant future.

Rather than filling the airwaves with false hope, you should be advocating for of course a continuation of your own needs, but help others understand that it won't be long before it's an industry of the past and by no means a sure thing.  They shouldn't put their eggs in that basket.

And with an industry like coal, there are global implications and pressures to consider too, not that I expect you to care or even acknowledge climate change.




When the world stops manufacturing steel, the world will no longer need coal, Grade 8 science.


The future without coal does not exist, climate change or not. Smiley Smiley

actually no coal is need now for making steel, its still in early days (id say 20-30years will see smelters) , but pilots springing up around the world   Wink Wink
I guess the question is will we be adapting and making new steel or will we by buying steel from other countries and not even selling the coal ? Wink Wink


And what will be powering those smelters?

If it's electricity then those smelters will require coal fired power stations to base load power capable of maintaining the levels of demand required for industrial smelting ......

whether or not coking coal is used in it's production.

Renewables at present are not capable of providing base load power for cities & industries like steel & aluminium manufacturing.

yes at present but in 20-30 years you really think renewable sources wont be matured enough for base load .
battery tech is getting better and cheaper and if they can iron out the kinks with hydrogen on excess electricity, there r so many solutions happening .
And in the end we will all be able to breath easier..... Wink Wink
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