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Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies. (Read 19251 times)
Gnads
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #150 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.


You're joking right? The extraction of gas by hydraulic fracking not only can contaminate underground aquifers it contaminate soils from spillage & the recovered contaminated water/chemical cocktail.

Well heads release gases all the time that are not visible to the human eye.

In comparison to an open cut mine the gas process just covers/disguises it's footprint better.
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Gnads
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #151 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am
 
,,,
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #152 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:26am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.


You're joking right? The extraction of gas by hydraulic fracking not only can contaminate underground aquifers it contaminate soils from spillage & the recovered contaminated water/chemical cocktail.

Well heads release gases all the time that are not visible to the human eye.

In comparison to an open cut mine the gas process just covers/disguises it's footprint better.


"This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage."

Oh, dearie, dearie me - and all this time we've been fed the line that penalty rates and such are no longer relevant because every hour of every day is the same as any other.... oh, dear.. what will the ideologues say now?  Grin
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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #153 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:35am
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:23am:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.


Pumped hydro... ok how does the initial (salt water) get pumped up to the top dam dam? Surely not by electricity generated by coal fired power stations?

And "gas fired" power is still burning fossil fuels ... much of which would be extracted by hydraulic fracturing coal seams ... a process totally devoid of being clean or green or any other smacking colour of the rainbow.


They are typically fresh water, and yes you use electricity. It's a battery, not a net source. But you can get the energy from anywhere - most likely renewables, as they have a higher tendency to temporarily over-supply.

Gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal.

Quote:
If we had reliable electricity supply the backup system would rarely be used .... with wind, solar it would be used more often .... & what does the back up system run on?

Petrol/diesel?


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Well you have found one. Why don't you tell us how much "true" baseload power is needed? Is that diffeent to "skewed" baseload power, whatever that is?


Like I keep telling you, it is a meaningless concept, invented by people struggling emotionally with the changes to the electricity industry. People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.


You're joking right? The extraction of gas by hydraulic fracking not only can contaminate underground aquifers it contaminate soils from spillage & the recovered contaminated water/chemical cocktail.

Well heads release gases all the time that are not visible to the human eye.

In comparison to an open cut mine the gas process just covers/disguises it's footprint better.


Gas has a lower carbon footprint. It's not an accounting trick. It's basic chemistry.

Quote:
oh, dear.. what will the ideologues say now?


They'll say things like states that are remote from themselves need to emit more GHG's, and they don't understand what per capita means so we are not allowed to mention it.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #154 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 11:36am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 8:59pm:
People who actually need an ininterruptable power supply buy one instead of relying on an imaginary network baseload.



So let's try to distil that.

"There is no such thing as baseload power, but hospitals have no-break power supplies, in case the non-existent baseload power fails." Huh

Micro baseload power

Baseload power simply means that power is available when needed.

Switching on a light at night to get a drink of water, see to the baby - uses baseload power.

The fridge thermostat switches in - uses baseload power.

In how many households a night would that occur? You want people to go back to candles?
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #155 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 11:39am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:35am:
They'll say things like states that are remote from themselves need to emit more GHG's, and they don't understand what per capita means so we are not allowed to mention it.



freediver has discovered emission free transportation. Wink

No one is stopping you mentioning per capita. You just have to show that per capita all things are equal.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #156 - Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm
 
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network? Do you agree with me that it is 0%?

Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?

That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #157 - Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network?


Whatever is needed to at any given moment. How many hospitals etc? Should high rise buildings be totally self-reliant? Should they be allowed to use lifts?

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Do you agree with me that it is 0%?



No. Do you want power for lights, fridges when needed or just when this non-baseload power is available?


freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Am I also correct that you do not know what you yourself mean when you say a "large" state?



Let's see. WA is a large state, SA is a large state. NT is not a state but is large, Queensland is a large state. By comparison NSW is a smaller state, Victoria is smaller again and Tasmania is the dag off the bottom end.

WA, SA, Qld, NT and NSW figure in the list for largest states in the world, so I guess they qualify. Wink

https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-largest-state-in-the-world

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
That is two questions that seem to turn a climate change denier into a blubbering mess.



And you have found the mythical emission free transport. Better patent it.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #158 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
Whatever is needed to at any given moment.


So the demand for baseload power varies on a minute by minute basis?

Tell us again what you think baseload means. Then try giving a straight answer for once.

What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network?
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #159 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 1:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
So the demand for baseload power varies on a minute by minute basis?


Yes. Power on an As Needs Basis.

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
Tell us again what you think baseload means.



Redundant. Answered above.

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
Then try giving a straight answer for once.



So you don't understand what an "As Needs Basis" is? Do you want to read at night, without using a hurricane lamp? Do you want to catch a lift to the top of St Martin's Tower Sydney? Do you want your operation in hospital to be suspended?

That is straight. You need baseload power for that. How would calculate your prior need? Without calculating prior need how would you know your need for baseload power?

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
What percentage of the demand side would you say needs true baseload power from the network?



Do you want that on a per capita basis? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

But seriously see the answer above. Then show us your workings that show it as zero (your statement). Wink
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Gnads
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #160 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 9:43am
 
Australias Stupidity

A nation sleepwalking into penury!

Over the past decade subsidies and hand-outs have resulted in the spending of around $50 billion of our nation’s limited and precious capital on so-called ’’renewables’’ - solar & wind Power.

Untold billions more have been spent to upgrade transmission lines to connect these to the grid.

For that money, we could have instead built 10 new HELE coal fired power stations (which would have lowered Co2 emissions) and had change left over to build 10 new Adelaide Hospitals (the most expensive ever built in the world).

Yet this ‘’investment’’ (or should we say ’malinvesment’) has hollowed out the baseload generation of the nation, causing wholesale electricity prices to triple, and at times resulting in power having to be cut to our nation’s aluminium smelters to avoid blackouts.

And on 9/6/2018 at 6pm, when demand peaked at 6pm, at just over 26,000 MW - that $50 billion spent on wind and solar was only providing 100MW - that’s less than 0.4% or 1/260th of total demand. Bit of a bugger when the wind don't blow and the sun don't glow and the power stations don't go (no more).


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freediver
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #161 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 8:42pm
 
Gnads wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 9:43am:
Australias Stupidity

A nation sleepwalking into penury!

Over the past decade subsidies and hand-outs have resulted in the spending of around $50 billion of our nation’s limited and precious capital on so-called ’’renewables’’ - solar & wind Power.

Untold billions more have been spent to upgrade transmission lines to connect these to the grid.

For that money, we could have instead built 10 new HELE coal fired power stations (which would have lowered Co2 emissions) and had change left over to build 10 new Adelaide Hospitals (the most expensive ever built in the world).

Yet this ‘’investment’’ (or should we say ’malinvesment’) has hollowed out the baseload generation of the nation, causing wholesale electricity prices to triple, and at times resulting in power having to be cut to our nation’s aluminium smelters to avoid blackouts.

And on 9/6/2018 at 6pm, when demand peaked at 6pm, at just over 26,000 MW - that $50 billion spent on wind and solar was only providing 100MW - that’s less than 0.4% or 1/260th of total demand. Bit of a bugger when the wind don't blow and the sun don't glow and the power stations don't go (no more).




Peak demand is actually at midday in the middle of summer - when solar panels happen to have peak output.
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #162 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 2:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
Peak demand is actually at midday in the middle of summer - when solar panels happen to have peak output.



"For many, the Australian summer is a time for family, beach, outdoor fun and keeping cool under our strong southern sun. For the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO), summer is also when Australia’s energy system is under the most strain due to high consumer demand (like when we all turn on our air conditioners at 6PM) and extreme weather events like bushfires."

"Energy fast facts

    The power system is under the most strain during high demand days between 4PM to 7PM, most commonly during periods of extreme heat (38 degrees plus)."

http://energylive.aemo.com.au/Editors-Picks/Energy-facts-and-safety-tips-for-sum...

I guess most people aren't home during the day, being at work or outside.
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #163 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 3:12pm
 
It's surprisingly difficult to find graphs of this. Here is one:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/graph-of-the-day-how-solar-pv-slashed-electricity-de
mand-65926/

...
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lee
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Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #164 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 3:30pm
 
Oh a graph of energy consumption decline? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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