Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 14
Send Topic Print
Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies. (Read 19254 times)
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16343
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #105 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Sure, hospitals can 'go dark' in terms of their connection to the grid. They can do this far easier than most places. They are always designed to be able to go dark. This is probably the worst example you could have chosen.



So they just stop the operations as soon as it goes dark? Sew them up in the dark? Replace the organs that they were partway through transplanting? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Yes. And peaking suppliers. And intermittent but controllable suppliers. There are all sort of technologies available.



yes and they still can't do the baseload you insist s not necessary. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

ER to road trauma victim "Sorry dear; come back in the morning, we may have power."
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #106 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm
 
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you? That was literally the stupidest example you could have thought of.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16343
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #107 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you?



Of course.

But you were the one saying there was no such thing as "there is no actual baseload in demand".

Now you are saying  "well yes there is, but the backup generators will cover it". Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #108 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Quote:
All intermittent power requires base load power (Coal & gas) to be on line just in case


Not true, for several reasons:

batteries (of various sorts, including pumped hydro)
peaking suppliers (intermittent hydro, gas fired plants)
demand-side arrangements

On the third point, there is no actual baseload in demand. For the most part it was a response to the historical use of coal fired plants for the majority of the supply. This lead to significant periods in each day where power was very cheap, and a lot of industries evolved to take advantage. Those industries will evolve in exactly the same way to more volatile supplies. Likewise, retail customers became psychologically accustomed to fixed prices regardless of wholesale costs, but again there is nothing fundamental there. We now have the technology cheaply available to manage retail pricing the same way as wholesale pricing. This used to be managed by, for example, having your hot water system on off-peak power, but that's a pretty crude adaptation.

If prices were more rationally matched to supply and demand, there would be all sorts of retail and industrial consumers willing to cease consumption based on the spot price. At the moment this is largely driven by politics and legacy hard investments.



Currently in this country with the except of that on single battery capable of providing 1 hr for 30000 houses. Everywhere else has coal fired back up for all their useless intermittent power.

Try this for a quick math exercise.

30 000 divide by 10hrs = 3000 houses for 10 hyrs

9 000 000 divided by 3000 = 3000

3000 x $100 000 000 = $300 000 000 000

And that is only for the houses, not even close if you include all industrial and commercial


Intermittent power is not worth a snatch full of cold water, when you consider our actual CO2 contribution.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #109 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:20pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you?



Of course.

But you were the one saying there was no such thing as "there is no actual baseload in demand".

Now you are saying  "well yes there is, but the backup generators will cover it". Wink


Great. So baseload exists, but is a meaningless concept for our electricity supply because the backup generators already exist for it.

So tell us Lee, what did you think happened whenever the current "baseload" power supply fails? Did you think the hospitals all went dark?

Quote:
Currently in this country with the except of that on single battery capable of providing 1 hr for 30000 houses. Everywhere else has coal fired back up for all their useless intermittent power.


Crap. We have plenty of gas fired power stations that sit idle most of the time, pumped hydro and conventional hydro. And that is just on the supply side. And again, the levels are a reflection of the historical use of more reliable power plants. The more we use more intermittent generators, the more profitable these sorts of things will be.

You have a very narrow view of what constitutes a battery. Hot water systems for example are a type of battery.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16343
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #110 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
Great. So baseload exists, but is a meaningless concept for our electricity supply because the backup generators already exist for it.



So baseload exists. You are such a denier. Fancy denying it didn't exist.

"A power outage which blacked out part of the Royal Adelaide Hospital (RAH) on Wednesday is the subject of four separate investigations, the South Australian Government has confirmed.

Two surgical theatres were plunged into darkness, other treatments were disrupted and some people got stuck in lifts when the power failed for 17 minutes."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-09/hospital-power-outage-subject-of-four-inve...

Now just imagine if the power failure was for much more than 17 minutes.

Good to rely on backup power, eh?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #111 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:31pm
 
Baseload is a crude misrepresentation of both the supply and the demand side of our electricity industry that has been latched onto by climate change deniers and turned from a historical accident into an imaginary necessity.

All power stations are intermittent to some extent. All electricity users can tolerate breaks in supply and variations in supply price, because the few that absolutely 'need' continuous power have some kind of backup already.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #112 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You realise that hospitals have backup generators, don't you?



Of course.

But you were the one saying there was no such thing as "there is no actual baseload in demand".

Now you are saying  "well yes there is, but the backup generators will cover it". Wink


Great. So baseload exists, but is a meaningless concept for our electricity supply because the backup generators already exist for it.

So tell us Lee, what did you think happened whenever the current "baseload" power supply fails? Did you think the hospitals all went dark?

Quote:
Currently in this country with the except of that on single battery capable of providing 1 hr for 30000 houses. Everywhere else has coal fired back up for all their useless intermittent power.


Crap. We have plenty of gas fired power stations that sit idle most of the time, pumped hydro and conventional hydro. And that is just on the supply side. And again, the levels are a reflection of the historical use of more reliable power plants. The more we use more intermittent generators, the more profitable these sorts of things will be.

You have a very narrow view of what constitutes a battery. Hot water systems for example are a type of battery.



So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.  Grin Grin Grin


QLD we have all coal plants maintained on line not 'just in case' but for when all our useless intermittent power drops off line. It is a lot cheaper than diesel generator that's for sure.

Cheap reliable power, not fkken useless over priced power like you intermittent power champions are calling for.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #113 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm
 
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #114 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
TheFunPolice
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9009
waggawagga
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #115 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:33pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.


Big Ol doesn't know what baseload is: how many years have we been telling him this now?
Back to top
 

......Australia has an illegitimate Government!
 
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #116 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.


Big Ol doesn't know what baseload is: how many years have we been telling him this now?



You can't remember to take your medications, how many years have we been telling you this now?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #117 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.



What exactly do you think I am suggesting?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #118 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Quote:
So tens thousands of diesel generators all over the country instead of base-load, fkk brilliant idea and fkk cheap too.


We already have them. Plus, millions of diesel vehicles on our streets (because they are cheap). You are the one who insisted hospitals would go dark if the power went out, not me. Not everyone is going to get a diesel generator, because the vast majority of consumers do not actually need it. My only point is that baseload is a meaningless concept. No electricity supply is 100% reliable. No consumer is 100% predictable or consistent. It just looks that way because the government has historically set the price, and both consumers and suppliers responded to the money. Electricity will respond to supply and demand pressures in the same way the potato trade does, and it is only the simple minded misrepresentations of climate change deniers that imagine it is fundamentally different.



Yeah that was some one else genius.  Grin Grin Grin


We may thousands of diesel generator floating around but that are not supporting our electrical grid to the extent needed to support a bullsh1t intermittent power supply system you are suggesting.

No sane country in the world would even think about doing something so fkken stupid.



What exactly do you think I am suggesting?



That we go to intermittent power and diesel generator back up instead of base load power using coal or gas.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Dying coal industry, not so fast there, ladies.
Reply #119 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:39pm
 
Where did I suggest that?

Pointing out that hospitals don't go dark just because the power goes out is not the same thing.

I am merely suggesting we let both the supply and demand side be guided by rational economics, not hysterical scaremongering about some imaginary need for baseload power.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 14
Send Topic Print