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Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes (Read 5320 times)
juliar
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Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
May 27th, 2018 at 7:29pm
 
Does home insurance cover putting a Tesla lithium fire bomb on the wall of your house ?




Lithium-ion battery storage may be banned inside Australian homes
By Giles Parkinson on 13 February 2017

...

Lithium-ion battery storage devices – including Tesla Powerwalls and other products – may be effectively banned from being installed inside homes and garages in Australia under new guidelines being drafted by Standards Australia.tesla powerwall 2

The move, if upheld, is likely to send shockwaves through the industry, with thousands of Australian households, including prime minister Malcolm Turnbull, already installing lithium ion battery storage devices and millions more predicted to do so in coming years.

Standards Australia, a voluntary body that draws on expertise from the industries involved and key stakeholders, is expected to release the draft guidelines in the next week or so. But news of its proposals has already leaked, causing concern that the decision could bring the industry to a halt.

It is feared that the ruling, if upheld, could cause damage to the lithium-ion storage market – expected to be worth billions of dollars and expected to play a critical role in the evolution of Australia’s energy market.

Most of the 1.6 million Australian households with rooftop solar already installed say they intend to install battery storage.


It is believed Standard Australia will advise lithium-ion battery storage should only be installed in free-standing “kiosks” – or effectively a “bunker” as one source described it – which would likely add thousands of dollars to the cost of installation.

This will affect not just individual installations, including those looking to go off grid, but also “mass” deployment such as AGL Energy’s “virtual power plant” in South Australia, which it plans to replicate “across the grid”, as well as numerous trials being conducted by networks across Australia, and various “power sharing” proposals across the country.

It also raises questions about whether people with electric vehicles, powered by lithium-ion storage, would also be banned from households garages.

Extraordinarily, there are currently no standards for lithium-ion battery storage in Australia, as we reported back in March last year, but deliberations began in June, as we reported here. However, both the Clean Energy Council, and the Energy Storage Council have issued their own guidelines, which do not include a ban.

The proposal is being seen as going from one extreme to another, and well beyond where are other jurisdictions such as Germany or California, the other big household battery storage markets, have gone.

Australia is considered to be the world’s test market for battery storage, thanks to its extraordinarily high grid costs, mostly due to the pricing of the network, and its high penetration of rooftop solar.

Forecasts for battery storage uptake include 2 million within a few years (Morgan Stanley), up to 6 million by 2030 (Bloomberg New Energy Finance) and CSIRO/ENA predicted that battery storage capacity would outstrip rooftop solar by 2025. Industry analyst Sunwiz says 70 per cent of solar households are looking to install battery storage of some sort.

Two of the biggest players in the market – Tesla and LG Chem – both use lithium-ion, as do numerous other products such as Sonnenbatterie, Sony, GCL, BYD, Panasonic and Samsung. Enphase batteries use lithium iron phosphate.

Other products, such as Australia’s Redflow zinc bromine flow batteries, Australia’s Ecoult (advanced lead battery) and the US-based Aquion (water) do not use lithium-ion.

Standards Australia is believed to have taken a conservative view of lithium-ion based on recommendations from fire authorities, who took the path of least risk. This follows the ban of some lithium-ion phone devices on aircraft, such as Samsung.


But others say that lithium-ion battery storage devices have long been installed in homes, particularly Germany. This proposal goes further than those put out by International Electrotechnical Commission  and UL – formerly known as Underwriters Lab.

John Grimes, the head of the Australian Solar Council, said he would not comment on the reports of the Standards Australia draft.

But he noted that there are standards in the US and Japan that do not ban battery storage devices in homes. In Germany, where more than 30,000 devices were installed last year, lithium-ion battery storage was banned only in bedrooms.

“There needs to be clear evidence tabled that these installations represent an unacceptable risk,” he told RenewEconomy. “It has to be evidence based.”

The committee is understood to have included representatives from the solar and storage industries (both lithium-ion and other technologies), networks, consumer groups,  fire authorities and independent consultants.

Update: Standards Australia issued a statement on Tuesday denying it was seeking a ban, but was looking to develop a new draft Australian Standard AS/NZS 5139, Electrical Installations – Safety of battery systems for use in inverter energy systems that will enable the safe installation of battery energy storage systems.

Read a bit more here

https://reneweconomy.com.au/lithium-ion-battery-storage-may-be-banned-inside-aus...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #1 - May 27th, 2018 at 9:16pm
 
Redflow batteries are Aussie made and scale could bring down price and almost last forever, and not lithium  Wink Wink
This article is a big maybe, let’s see what happens. Wink Wink Wink
This was 15 months ago what r the finding Jules ?
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #2 - May 27th, 2018 at 9:49pm
 
Gosh the Greeny type DDH is trying to sound intelligent. Didn't work.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #3 - May 27th, 2018 at 10:19pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 27th, 2018 at 9:16pm:
Redflow batteries are Aussie made and scale could bring down price and almost last forever, and not lithium  Wink Wink
This article is a big maybe, let’s see what happens. Wink Wink Wink
This was 15 months ago what r the finding Jules ?



Quote:
...............This scalable 10 kilowatt-hour (kWh) zinc-bromine flow battery delivers 100 per cent depth of discharge each day for a warranted 10 years – without causing any damage to the battery............


https://redflow.com/products/redflow-zbm2/

good find DonDee
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #4 - May 27th, 2018 at 10:26pm
 
Have you considered the size and weight of these batteries ?
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #5 - May 28th, 2018 at 7:16am
 
juliar wrote on May 27th, 2018 at 10:26pm:
Have you considered the size and weight of these batteries ?

Weight isn't a problem if its stationary in a shed or under the house.......
they are about the size of a pallet if I remember right.
U r talking about the aussie redox batteries I presume Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #6 - May 28th, 2018 at 7:59am
 
Why doesn't the DDH Greeny type just disappear ?
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #7 - May 28th, 2018 at 8:49am
 
Please feel free to show ONCE when a lithium home power unit has caught on fire  Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #8 - May 28th, 2018 at 11:22am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 28th, 2018 at 8:49am:
Please feel free to show ONCE when a lithium home power unit has caught on fire



And because it hasn't happened yet is proof positive it will never happen?
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #9 - May 28th, 2018 at 11:36am
 
Just the usual nonsense from TheLiar

Like her post on Telsa Crash Battery burns people alive, idiot didnt seem to realise people have been burn alive in petrol tank and LPG explosions in cars hundreds of times.

Moron!   Angry
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ALL AUSTRALIA IS FOR ALL AUSTRALIANS!
 
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #10 - May 28th, 2018 at 11:55am
 
Hey socko are you going to ban lithium powered smart phones, electric drills and laptops from the house too or is it just limited to the batteries used to store FREE energy from the sun ? Cheesy LOL

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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #11 - May 28th, 2018 at 2:04pm
 
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #12 - May 28th, 2018 at 10:00pm
 
The Greeny type DDH is certainly the empty vessel that makes the most ridiculous uninformed nonsense off topic noise. Please just disappear.

Back on topic would your home insurance policy cover your home if your Tesla fire bomb blew up on the wall of your house and burnt your house down ?



Will the Tesla Power Wall Explode?
May 9, 2015 endlesswattz 

...

Tesla has released a new home battery.  It is called the Power Wall.

The Tesla power wall is a lithium ion battery, according to the specifications listed on the official website. 

...

Lithium ion batteries are the same kind of batteries used in laptops and cell phones, and we all know that lithium ion batteries have a history of exploding. 

So the question is, will the Tesla power wall explode?
 

There have been many documented cases of laptop batteries catching on fire and cell phone batteries inflating and combusting. 

They say that this is a smart battery, but what are the safety features? 

There’s very little information available right now at so what kind of safety features this battery will have. 

The specifications say that it uses a liquid thermal control, but we don’t know what that means or how it works yet.

What would happen if a vehicle crashes into the power wall? What if the house catches on fire?  What would happen to the battery? 

So far there’s only been one or two incidents of Tesla cars catching on fire.  We will see how reliable the power wall really is.

http://endlesswatts.com/will-the-tesla-power-wall-explode/
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #13 - May 29th, 2018 at 4:30pm
 
juliar wrote on May 28th, 2018 at 10:00pm:
The Greeny type DDH is certainly the empty vessel that makes the most ridiculous uninformed nonsense off topic noise. Please just disappear.

Back on topic would your home insurance policy cover your home if your Tesla fire bomb blew up on the wall of your house and burnt your house down ?



Will the Tesla Power Wall Explode?
May 9, 2015 endlesswattz 

http://endlesswatts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/teslapowerwallexplode2-1024x5...

Tesla has released a new home battery.  It is called the Power Wall.

The Tesla power wall is a lithium ion battery, according to the specifications listed on the official website. 

http://endlesswatts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/teslaspec.jpg

Lithium ion batteries are the same kind of batteries used in laptops and cell phones, and we all know that lithium ion batteries have a history of exploding. 

So the question is, will the Tesla power wall explode?
 

There have been many documented cases of laptop batteries catching on fire and cell phone batteries inflating and combusting. 

They say that this is a smart battery, but what are the safety features? 

There’s very little information available right now at so what kind of safety features this battery will have. 

The specifications say that it uses a liquid thermal control, but we don’t know what that means or how it works yet.

What would happen if a vehicle crashes into the power wall? What if the house catches on fire?  What would happen to the battery? 

So far there’s only been one or two incidents of Tesla cars catching on fire.  We will see how reliable the power wall really is.

http://endlesswatts.com/will-the-tesla-power-wall-explode/

That was written over 3 years ago and still no fires...... Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #14 - May 31st, 2018 at 11:16am
 
Dumber than dumb Greeny type DDH shows her lack of originality by copying MY intelligent post and then adding 1 line of ridiculous dribble as only a dumb Greeny could do.

Now an extremely welcome relief from the pungent puerility of the Greeny types.



Will it be illegal to install a single phase Powerwall 2 from Thursday?
March 26, 2017 by Finn Peacock 90 Comments

...

Unless your local electricity network provides a local variation to a new Australian Standard that becomes mandatory on Thursday, it may be illegal to install a Powerwall 2 plus solar on a single phase.

[Note: Someone has contacted me to say that their interpretation of the standard is that a 5kW battery inverter and a 5kW solar inverter equates to a ‘rating limit’ of 5kW for the entire (IES) system. If that is correct then you would be able to AC couple a Powerwall 2 (or other battery) with a 5kW solar inverter on a single phase and not violate the new standard. I don’t agree with that interpretation. My interpretation is that the ‘rating limit’ is the sum of all the inverter ratings in the IES. I’m happy to be proved wrong on this.]

[Note 2: Someone else has suggested that a battery inverter that monitors the solar inverter’s output could be controlled in a way such that the total output of both inverters never exceeds 5kW. Technically this is feasible, although it would limit the ability of the whole system to provide self consumption. In practice I still think the ‘rating limit’ would be calculated as the sum of both inverter ratings, unless the manufacturer of the battery inverter could convince the DNSP otherwise.]

When is the s#!* gonna hit the fan?
This Thursday (30th March 2017) a new Australian Standard becomes mandatory. That standard is AS/NZS 4777.1:2016 or ‘Grid connection of energy systems via inverters, Part 1: Installation requirements‘ to its friends.

What is AS 4777.1?
It is the Australian Standard that mandates how solar and battery (and wind) inverters are connected to the grid. It was released on 30th September 2016 with a 6 month grace period. That grace period ends on 30 March 2017. So all solar and battery systems that are installed from this Thursday must comply.

Why Is This A Problem?
The second paragraph of Section 2.3 of AS/NZS 477.1:2016 states:

Unless specifically stated by the electricity distributor, the rating limit for a single-phase IES in an individual installation shall be equal to 5 kVA,

‘IES’ is defined in the standard as:
Inverter Energy System (IES) :  A system comprising one or more inverters together with one or more energy sources (which may include batteries for energy storage) and controls where the inverter(s) satisfies the requirements of AS/NZS 4777.2

‘Inverter’ is defined as
Inverter: A device that uses semiconductor devices to transfer power between a d.c. source(s) or load and an a.c. source(s) or load.

My interpretation of that clause is this:
Unless your local DNSP (Distribution Network Service Provider) publishes a local exception, the total amount of inverter capacity on a single phase system (when you add all the battery and solar inverter capacities together) cannot exceed 5kW1

For reference, this table shows you your local DNSP.

Why is this a problem?
Imagine you have a single phase home (as most Australians do) and you have a 5kW solar system on the roof. Now imagine that Elon Musk has charmed you into ordering one of his Powerwall 2 batteries.

Tesla has promised installations will begin in April, after the new standard comes into force.

But since Tesla decided to suddenly drop the DC version of the PW2 in Australia, you are forced to get the AC coupled version.

The AC coupled version has an inbuilt 5kW inverter, that converts the battery’s DC power to AC, so that it can be AC coupled.

So if you install this battery on your house you would have a 5kW battery inverter plus a 5kW solar inverter on a single phase and that appears to violate AS 4777.1 because the ‘rating limit’ of your IES is now 10kW.

As far as I can see, the only way you will be able to install a PW2 (or any other AC battery) together with 5kW of solar, legally on a single phase will be if your local DNSP creates a local exception.

Which DNSPs have announced local exceptions ?
I can’t find any formal announcement that any DNSP in Australia has a local exception that will allow battery inverters to be treated differently to solar inverters.

I’ve anecdotally heard that Energy Queensland will allow 5kW of Solar plus 5kW of battery inverter on a single phase – but I’ve seen nothing in writing.

I’ve anecdotally heard that different people at SA Power Networks have said they both will and will not allow 5kW of battery inverter2. So God only knows what SAPN’s position is.

Update: 3 commenters have kindly advised that Ausgrid, Essential Energy and ActewAGL are all approving up to 10kW per phase – it would be nice to see this in writing from these DNSPs

Read the depressing rest here

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/powerwall-2-as4777/
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #15 - May 31st, 2018 at 11:34am
 
haha old article there jules
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/restrictions-on-rooftop-solar-in-qld-eased-p...
note same site

There is good news for Queenslanders looking to install rooftop solar and anyone thinking of of installing AC coupled battery systems such as the Powerwall 2.
Energex and Ergon, the two Distributed Network Service Providers (DNSPs) in Queensland1, have released an installer alert stating the state’s Connection Standard for Micro-Embedded Generation Units has been revised and approved2.
This is an important and positive change for people who are have single phase power and are on the main grid, which is most Queenslanders.  In the past, in order to receive automatic approval for rooftop solar, they had to install an inverter with a capacity of 5 kilowatts or less, but now automatic approval will also apply for inverters from over 5 kilowatts and up to 10 kilowatts, provided it is export limited so it never provides more than 5 kilowatts of power to the grid

Ill this is just what your allowed to put back into the grid after you own home use, so its all really a non issue , the battery puts power into the grid, it will be at night, not when the solar panels r working...... Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #16 - May 31st, 2018 at 11:58am
 
American National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) has performed tests on Tesla battery cabinets and determined they would not cause a fire due to internal factors causing battery overheat, and that they would not contribute to an external fire or explode.

These are important findings which prove the batteries to be reasonably safe.

https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/

Quote:
... They learned from the test that not only did the Powerpack not explode or catch on fire, but the fire created by the heater cartridge also didn’t propagate to other pods.

In fact, NFPA found that the 15 other pods were still functional:

“Following the test, it was determined that only one of the energy pods (the initiator pod) was damaged. The other 15 pods remained operational and had a full SOC. The energy pods were discharged and the Powerpack was recycled.”

That’s very good news. It means that a Powerpack cannot start a fire: even in the unlikely event that one or a few cells explode, it will be contained within the pod and will not unleash the entire 100 kWh of energy capacity of the Powerpack.

...

Following the test, they unsurprisingly found out that “all of the energy pods were damaged and there was no stranded energy within the Powerpack.”

NFPA concluded that a prolonged fire outside the Powerpack could definitely induce the Powerpack into thermal runaway, but they found that the consequences were confined to the pack and didn’t propagate:

“However, no violent projectiles, explosions, or bursts (other than a overpressure release of the thermal door refrigerant) were observed during the test while the Powerpack was exposed to the burners, while it was in a free burn state, or after flames were no longer visible. Flames remained mostly confined to the Powerpack itself. Weaker flames emanated from the exhaust vent of the Powerpack, the front thermal door grill, and around the front thermal door seal at varying times throughout the test.”

Most importantly, they determined that the exterior temperatures at the Powerpack cabinet “would not pose a fire spread hazard” if Tesla’s installation standards are respected.

In conclusion, if a fire starts from inside a pod, it doesn’t propagate to the rest of the Powerpack. And if a fire starts outside the Powerpack, it won’t spread to other Powerpacks around it. Of course, there are also several safety features preventing those things from ever happening, but the NFPA’s tests were for worst case scenarios. ...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #17 - May 31st, 2018 at 1:03pm
 
Silly old DDH is going ga ga as she desperately tries to get noticed.


Unforgiven,

Yankee regulations don't necessarily apply here.

In the event of a house fire the Tesla PowerWall would provide a spectacular accelerant.

If the Tesla Powerwall was in the garage and the Tesla death trap car suddenly without warning accelerated into the wall the Powerwall would go off like a bomb.

Tesla unproven still experimental cars are known to suddenly accelerate without warning and plow into whatever is in front.

Or if the Tesla car spontaneously caught fire while being charged wouldn't the Tesla Powerwall add nicely to the conflagration ?

Tesla experimental cars are known to spontaneously explode while being charged.

Australian standards want to ban these Tesla Powerwall fire bombs just waiting to happen away from the house in a fireproof enclosure.

The Standards have temporarily backed off as the industry cried fowl.


Now an accident just waiting to happen. Tesla plows into Tesla Powerwall!!!  BOOM!!!!!  Or Tesla catches fire while charging!! BOOM!!!! Watch home insurance company run away.

...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #18 - May 31st, 2018 at 1:32pm
 
juliar wrote on May 31st, 2018 at 1:03pm:
Silly old DDH is going ga ga as she desperately tries to get noticed.


Unforgiven,

Yankee regulations don't necessarily apply here.
It was a physical test Jules, physics different in Aus ?
In the event of a house fire the Tesla PowerWall would provide a spectacular accelerant.
so do LPG bottles

If the Tesla Powerwall was in the garage and the Tesla death trap car suddenly without warning accelerated into the wall the Powerwall would go off like a bomb.
A Tesla has never falsly accelerated (unlike most cars they record all the driving patterns and can pinpoint what happened)
Tesla unproven still experimental cars are known to suddenly accelerate without warning and plow into whatever is in front.
again Proof ?

Or if the Tesla car spontaneously caught fire while being charged wouldn't the Tesla Powerwall add nicely to the conflagration ?

Tesla experimental cars are known to spontaneously explode while being charged.
I think 1 in Norway might of caught fire because of charging at a supercharger, none have caught fire from home charging....
Australian standards want to ban these Tesla Powerwall fire bombs just waiting to happen away from the house in a fireproof enclosure.

The Standards have temporarily backed off as the industry cried fowl.
Still no Lithium Home battery pack caught on fire....


Now an accident just waiting to happen. Tesla plows into Tesla Powerwall!!!  BOOM!!!!!  Or Tesla catches fire while charging!! BOOM!!!! Watch home insurance company run away.
Petrol car running into 2 large LPG tanks..... BOOM !!!!!!! about as likely Jules
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/02/02/23/48D523E300000578-0-image-a-21_15176...

Wink Wink Wink Wink
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, there are approximately 16,000 crashes occurring each year in the US due to drivers mistaking the accelerator for the brake pedal
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #19 - May 31st, 2018 at 2:03pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 31st, 2018 at 1:32pm:
In the event of a house fire the Tesla PowerWall would provide a spectacular accelerant.
so do LPG bottles



Gas bottles are generally on an outside wall. If a gas bottle goes the gas is consumed almost immediately.

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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #20 - May 31st, 2018 at 6:44pm
 
DDH is exposed as a technically ignorant Greeny fraud yet again.

But everybody knows the old Greeny DDH makes it up as she goes.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #21 - May 31st, 2018 at 7:13pm
 
"Standards Australia renews threat of home battery storage ban"

dated 14 June 2017

https://reneweconomy.com.au/standards-australia-renews-threat-of-home-battery-st...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #22 - Jun 1st, 2018 at 7:36am
 
lee wrote on May 31st, 2018 at 7:13pm:
"Standards Australia renews threat of home battery storage ban"

dated 14 June 2017

https://reneweconomy.com.au/standards-australia-renews-threat-of-home-battery-st...

ok Lee that was a year ago what happened with the standards........ Wink Wink The clean energy council did some guidelines in Nov 17, might find the info there. Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #23 - Jun 1st, 2018 at 11:36am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 1st, 2018 at 7:36am:
ok Lee that was a year ago what happened with the standards...



Rhat's the last I can find from Standards Australia. If you have an update please share it.

DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 1st, 2018 at 7:36am:
The clean energy council did some guidelines in Nov 17, might find the info there.



You do realise the Clean Energy Council can't make standards. But seeing as you think they may have an update please provide that.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #24 - Jun 1st, 2018 at 11:48am
 
lee wrote on Jun 1st, 2018 at 11:36am:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 1st, 2018 at 7:36am:
ok Lee that was a year ago what happened with the standards...



Rhat's the last I can find from Standards Australia. If you have an update please share it.

DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 1st, 2018 at 7:36am:
The clean energy council did some guidelines in Nov 17, might find the info there.



You do realise the Clean Energy Council can't make standards. But seeing as you think they may have an update please provide that.

u can still put lithium battery packs in houses so I guess its not finalized or has ok'd them. Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #25 - Jun 1st, 2018 at 11:49am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 1st, 2018 at 11:48am:
u can still put lithium battery packs in houses so I guess its not finalized or has ok'd them



That's comforting one or the other. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #26 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 1:46pm
 
The old troll DDH is making up the bulldust as he/she goes - what a FRAUD!!!
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #27 - Jun 7th, 2018 at 6:27am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 1:46pm:
The old troll DDH is making up the bulldust as he/she goes - what a FRAUD!!!

so lithium battery packs can still be put in Australian homes and  none have caught fire. who is the sensationalist fraud here Jules ???
Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #28 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 1:30pm
 
Silly old DDH is trying to use the silly childish tactics used by all the boring waste of space Greeny types. What a fraud!!!
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #29 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 1:40pm
 
What would this mean to the ELECTRIC AUTOMOBILE (EVs)?

They also use the extremely powerful Lithium Ion Batteries, which have been known to catch fire and blow up too.

Will the
GREENY Dream
for a 'CO2 Free' future come crashing down around their overgrown ears, being people wont be able to park them in their garages?  Cheesy


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« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2018 at 1:49pm by Vangard »  
 
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #30 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 1:44pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Jun 7th, 2018 at 6:27am:
juliar wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 1:46pm:
The old troll DDH is making up the bulldust as he/she goes - what a FRAUD!!!

so lithium battery packs can still be put in Australian homes and  none have caught fire. who is the sensationalist fraud here Jules ???
Wink Wink Wink

Still none have caught on fire..... waiting waiting Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #31 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 2:01pm
 
Boring silly old DDH - what a waste of time.


More to the point Vangard what will the home insurance companies do ?

If a home catches on fire for any reason when the fire gets to the Tesla Lithium fire bomb PowerWall it will go off like a fire bomb - you know just like the Tesla fiery death trap cars do.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #32 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:16am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 8th, 2018 at 2:01pm:
Boring silly old DDH - what a waste of time.


More to the point Vangard what will the home insurance companies do ?

If a home catches on fire for any reason when the fire gets to the Tesla Lithium fire bomb PowerWall it will go off like a fire bomb - you know just like the Tesla fiery death trap cars do.

so lithium battery packs can still be put in Australian homes and  none have caught fire. who is the sensationalist fraud here Jules ??? Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #33 - Jun 11th, 2018 at 7:33pm
 
Boring silly old DDH - what a waste of time. Wonder when the poor soul will get so humiliated that he/she will leave permanently ?

Now the TRUTH about lithium fire bombs in the home is starting to leak out alarming the public.

When will home insurance companies wack up the premiums to cover lithium fire bombs in the home ?




‘Years to understand’ fire risk of solar power systems
GREG BROWN Journalist Canberra The Australian12:00AM July 12, 2017

...
SunSeeker Electrical owner Abdullah Sultan says he knows of hundreds of fires caused by poor installation of solar panels. Picture: James Croucher

Victoria’s Metropolitan Fire Brigade has responded to more than 40 fires caused by home solar power systems in the past five years and warned that it would take years to understand the fire risk posed by lithium ion battery storage.

The MFB said the solar installations were vulnerable to faults across their systems, including isolation switches, inverters and installed wiring, and from deteriorating components.

The alarming figures come as the solar battery storage industry pushes to kill new regulations that would force homeowners to build a separate “fire bunker” housing for battery installations.

Under draft rules released by Standards Australia, lithium ion batteries are classed as “Fire Class 1” and would not be allowed inside or within 1m of a domestic dwelling. The industry will have until August 15 to respond to the draft regulations.


The safety moves are designed to avoid a repeat of Labor’s insulation batts scheme in which the rapid rollout of roof insulation in 2009 led to more than 200 house fires across the nation, and ultimately four deaths.

The MFB warned last night that the risk caused by the rapidly growing uptake of solar panels on homes had not yet been properly understood.

“In the past five years, MFB has responded to more than 40 fires involving solar panels,” a spokeswoman said.

“The causes of these fires vary but are usually sparked by system faults including isolation switches, inverters, installed wiring, and deteriorating components.

“As with any new technology, it will take some time before the risks associated with lithium ion batteries in solar panels can be fully understood.”

Energy Safe Victoria director Neil Fraser said at least eight solar panel models had been taken off the market in the past five years because of fire concerns.

“We are aware of as many as eight recalls nationally over the last five years of DC isolator switches which are located next to the solar panel on the roof,” Mr Fraser said.

“It is important that those ­people who have panels maintain them. They need to be cleaned regularly and inspected, preferably by a licensed electrician.”

Sales of battery storage have risen to 6750 battery installations last year, up from 500 in 2015, ­according to a recent survey.

Solar energy equipment supplier SunWiz forecasts at least a threefold increase this year.

The owner of a Sydney-based solar panel maintenance company said he had seen “hundreds” of fires caused by solar panels in the past five years.

SunSeeker Electrical owner Abdullah Sultan said this was because of “cowboy” installers operating under little regulation.

He said cheap products from China had forced local installers to drop prices and cut corners.

“There are a lot of cowboys out there who want a quick buck and the pricing isn’t regulated so you get people charging dirt cheap and customers don’t know what they are buying.”

The Clean Energy Council’s voluntary code outlines concerns that lithium-based batteries can overheat.

But CEC chief executive Kane Thornton said yesterday the lithium ion batteries were not a fire hazard, although he acknowledged it would take time to fully understand their risk.

“Things can go wrong from time to time but they are a relatively low risk, particularly relative to a bunch of other appliances and things that people have got in their homes: tins of lawnmower petrol, gas bottles, toasters.”

A spokesman for Victorian Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio said the industry was heavily regulated and the fire risk from solar panels was not high.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/years-to-unders...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #34 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 6:45am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 7:33pm:
Boring silly old DDH - what a waste of time. Wonder when the poor soul will get so humiliated that he/she will leave permanently ?

Now the TRUTH about lithium fire bombs in the home is starting to leak out alarming the public.

When will home insurance companies wack up the premiums to cover lithium fire bombs in the home ?




‘Years to understand’ fire risk of solar power systems
GREG BROWN Journalist Canberra The Australian12:00AM July 12, 2017

https://s33.postimg.cc/3w9omamsf/solar.png
SunSeeker Electrical owner Abdullah Sultan says he knows of hundreds of fires caused by poor installation of solar panels. Picture: James Croucher

Victoria’s Metropolitan Fire Brigade has responded to more than 40 fires caused by home solar power systems in the past five years and warned that it would take years to understand the fire risk posed by lithium ion battery storage.

The MFB said the solar installations were vulnerable to faults across their systems, including isolation switches, inverters and installed wiring, and from deteriorating components.

The alarming figures come as the solar battery storage industry pushes to kill new regulations that would force homeowners to build a separate “fire bunker” housing for battery installations.

Under draft rules released by Standards Australia, lithium ion batteries are classed as “Fire Class 1” and would not be allowed inside or within 1m of a domestic dwelling. The industry will have until August 15 to respond to the draft regulations.

old news the regulations DIDNT ban then in houses


The safety moves are designed to avoid a repeat of Labor’s insulation batts scheme in which the rapid rollout of roof insulation in 2009 led to more than 200 house fires across the nation, and ultimately four deaths.

The MFB warned last night that the risk caused by the rapidly growing uptake of solar panels on homes had not yet been properly understood.

“In the past five years, MFB has responded to more than 40 fires involving solar panels,” a spokeswoman said.

“The causes of these fires vary but are usually sparked by system faults including isolation switches, inverters, installed wiring, and deteriorating components.

“As with any new technology, it will take some time before the risks associated with lithium ion batteries in solar panels can be fully understood.”

Energy Safe Victoria director Neil Fraser said at least eight solar panel models had been taken off the market in the past five years because of fire concerns.

“We are aware of as many as eight recalls nationally over the last five years of DC isolator switches which are located next to the solar panel on the roof,” Mr Fraser said.

“It is important that those ­people who have panels maintain them. They need to be cleaned regularly and inspected, preferably by a licensed electrician.”

Sales of battery storage have risen to 6750 battery installations last year, up from 500 in 2015, ­according to a recent survey.

Solar energy equipment supplier SunWiz forecasts at least a threefold increase this year.

The owner of a Sydney-based solar panel maintenance company said he had seen “hundreds” of fires caused by solar panels in the past five years.

SunSeeker Electrical owner Abdullah Sultan said this was because of “cowboy” installers operating under little regulation.

He said cheap products from China had forced local installers to drop prices and cut corners.

“There are a lot of cowboys out there who want a quick buck and the pricing isn’t regulated so you get people charging dirt cheap and customers don’t know what they are buying.”

The Clean Energy Council’s voluntary code outlines concerns that lithium-based batteries can overheat.
But CEC chief executive Kane Thornton said yesterday the lithium ion batteries were not a fire hazard, although he acknowledged it would take time to fully understand their risk.

“Things can go wrong from time to time but they are a relatively low risk, particularly relative to a bunch of other appliances and things that people have got in their homes: tins of lawnmower petrol, gas bottles, toasters.”

A spokesman for Victorian Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio said the industry was heavily regulated and the fire risk from solar panels was not high.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/years-to-unders...

If the people buy electric mowers not even the risk of fuel cans in the garage... win win  Wink
Ok a story about fears of dodgy solar panel installations and the experts saying Battery power packs are not dangerous..   good post Jules keep up the good work  Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #35 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 1:36pm
 
Dumb DDH has copied MY GOOD post and then added 1 line of indescribably dribbling nonsense. What an attention seeking troll.
Why does the drongo do this ? Must be masochistic and likes to humiliate him/herself.

Now a very welcome change from the dribbling nonsense of the DDH troll and a look at batteries including the fiery death trap Lithium ones.



How Safe Are Solar Battery Storage Systems?

The solar battery revolution will soon start really getting into gear in Australia. According to a survey carried out in 2017, safety is among the major concerns of Australians considering purchasing energy storage - and this includes environmental safety issues when a battery system reaches the end of its service life.

For those of you wishing to dive into the technical nitty-gritty of these issues, this report (PDF) by the Clean Energy Council contains everything you'd ever need to know about home battery storage system safety.

For everyone else, here's an overview:

Solar battery storage, regardless of whether it's lithium ion, lead acid, flow or aqueous hybrid ion, is perfectly safe if it is installed by an accredited electrician and properly maintained.

However, the inherent safety behind battery storage does vary between competing technologies. Even within each technology, quality in this regard will vary between manufacturers and how the system is installed.

Lead acid batteries are generally safe, and easily recyclable. By "generally safe", it needs to be kept in mind that lead acid batteries emit an explosive combination of hydrogen and oxygen gases towards the final stage of charging, so adequate ventilation is very important.

While it sounds a little offputting, it's just a case of avoiding a potentially dangerous situation by observing appropriate care and maintenance when working with lead-acid batteries. The danger level is really not much different to that associated with petrol powered cars and gas used in the home.

Lithium ion batteries pose a fire hazard if not installed properly, or if you use inferior quality batteries. This is due to the chemistry behind lithium-ion batteries making them more prone to 'thermal runaway'  if they are damaged or if they overheat.

Thermal runaway is a phenomenon whereby where an increase in temperature fuels a further boost in temperature, which can very rapidly lead to a battery venting with flame or even exploding.

Because 'lithium ion' is an umbrella term that describes a wide variety of lithium chemistries (such as lithium iron phosphate, lithium cobalt oxide, lithium manganese oxide and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide), it's important to note that some types of lithium ion batteries are much safer than others. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is considered the safest in terms of thermal runaway risk and is the most durable lithium battery chemistry.

Aside from the type of lithium-ion chemistry, safety will also depend on the systems built into the battery. For example, Tesla's Powerwall battery also boasts a special safety feature that seals off any thermally unstable cells if they pose a thermal runaway risk, which is why they're rated for both outdoor and indoor installations.

Lithium ion batteries are very difficult to dispose of/recycle, making them hazardous from an environmental perspective.

Flow batteries are much more environmentally friendly, and have a very low fire risk due to the chemistry of the solutions they contain, such as zinc-bromide electrolyte, which is essentially a fire retardant. They're also very easy to recycle.

Salt water batteries are non-toxic, non-flammable, and non-explosive. Their chemistry is inherently safe and not capable of thermal runaway. The batteries are also entirely touch-safe, and environmentally friendly to recycle.

One other important safety issue regardless of chemistry or battery type relates to the primary purpose of the product - to store energy, and a lot of it; i.e there is a potential electrocution hazard.

In short? Don't skimp on battery system quality or installation costs. Get the job done right, and your home battery storage system will operate safely and have a long service life.

National standards are currently being developed by Standards Australia  to ensure safe home energy storage products are used in Australia and that they are installed correctly. Additionally, the Clean Energy Council has introduced installation guidelines for home battery systems. The CEC's Battery Installation Guidelines for Accredited Installers (PDF) became mandatory as of the beginning of November 2017.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/safety/
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #36 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 1:57pm
 
Will your lithium solar storage battery burn your house down ?  See what they do to Tesla cars!!!



Fire sparks concerns over lack of standards on battery storage
By Giles Parkinson on 18 March 2016

Images of an “exploded” lithium-ion battery storage device in a household garage in Victoria have been doing the rounds of social media, highlighting the risks and the lack of formal standards in a technology that is expected to be at the heart of a booming billion dollar industry in Australia.

...
growatt 1

It is estimated that 50,000 battery storage systems could be installed in Australia over the next 12 months, and more than a million within a decade. Some suggest more than two million homes could have battery storage in a relatively short time.

It is hailed as the continuation of an energy revolution that will shift the onus on power supply from large centralised generators to the home and business. The CSIRO and leading utilities such as Engie predict half of all generation will come from local distributed sources, and battery storage will play a key role.

Australia is seen to be at the cutting edge of this revolution. Even the Coalition government appears to be on board. But the stark fact is that there are no official standards setting the rules and guidelines for new battery storage chemistries such as lithium ion in Australia, and there may not be for another three to five years.


This is raising concerns among installers and industry leaders about the potential fall-out if real damage is done, particularly if consumers aim for the “cheap” end of the market, as many did with rooftop solar.

...
growatt 2

The images above first appeared on the social media website Whirlpool, where there are a range of theories as to what may have happened. The fire appears to have been contained and there are no reports of any injuries.

This incident occurred with a system produced by Growatt, a manufacturer considered to be at the “premium” end of the Chinese market. It has sent out a team from China to investigate the incident. RenewEconomy sought to contact the team but was not successful.

These photos were taken from an installation in Victoria. It is not known what caused the “explosion”, although it is assumed to be a case of “thermal runaway.” It is not known whether it is an installation fault or a problem with the system, or some third party factors.

The hope is that this a one-off. The fear is that the lack of standards means it may not be. The nature of battery storage systems and the energy and the chemicals that they embody potentially make them the most dangerous electronic item to be put in a home, as AGL’s head of new energy Marc England pointed out last year.

John Grimes, the CEO of the Energy Storage Council, says there are Australian standards in place for lead acid battery storage technologies (although these are 20 years old and need to be updated) but there are no standards for new chemistries such as lithium-ion.

The ESC is about to release a package of “best practice” guidelines for battery storage products, installations and maintenance that it hopes will act as an interim standard for battery storage developers and installers, and as a guide to consumers.

It is also about to produce a “white list” of  products to ensure that hybrid systems are inherently safe. This is being done with the help of international standards consultants DNV, via their energy storage testing laboratory in the US.

“The fact that there is no standard means there is the opportunity for shysters and carpet baggers to go out and put something in the market place,” Grimes said. “That is something that frightens us – we want and need good outcomes for consumers and the public right from day one.

“We don’t want to scare the public and say that there is a huge risk. Wree do want to make su that people make an informed decision. The number of systems out there is small – but it will grow exponentially.

“We need to ensure the safety of installers, customers and their families, and first responders in the event of an emergency, including fire.”

The Clean Energy Council says it, too, is working on developing battery product standards and introducing training for installers.

“We are excited by the possibilities presented by battery storage technology are exciting, but the protection of consumers needs to remain the industry’s highest priority,” a spokesman said in an emailed statement.

“We have talked to a range of policymakers about this issue to highlight the need for regulation that will keep low-quality products out of the country and make sure that those installing battery technology are highly skilled professionals.”

Mark Hickey, an installer with NSW-based Light Touch Solar & Electrical, agrees that the lack of standards and controls over the actions of a few is a major concern.

While there were approval processes for solar panels – just recently updated to make them an ongoing and “random” search rather than a once off – and for inverters, there were none for battery storage. And there were no restrictions on the people who could install battery storage devices.


This alarming report continues overleaf
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #37 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 1:57pm
 
This alarming report continues...

While there were approval processes for solar panels – just recently updated to make them an ongoing and “random” search rather than a once off – and for inverters, there were none for battery storage. And there were no restrictions on the people who could install battery storage devices.

“Some people are out to make a quick buck and it’s more common than I’d like to think,” Hickey says. “Some of these smaller players will damage the industry for the rest of us who are trying to do good work.”

Hickey says this could prompt an overreaction from the government and incumbent utilities, with unjustified and costly restrictions put on the industry. “I’m very excited about battery storage, but I do have concerns about a few minority installers and the damage they can do the industry.”

Indeed, the overwhelming message from the solar and battery storage industry is that – like most industries – you get what you pay for. The fear is that Australian households – having gravitated, particularly in the early years, to the “cheap” end of the solar market – may do the same with battery storage.

Jeff Wehl, from Ecoelectric, an installer of rooftop solar and hybrid battery storage systems in Queensland, is one of those who says he fears many Australian consumers will fall into the same trap as they did with rooftop solar, buying cheaper and lower quality products in a bid to save money.

He said expectations of cheap batteries had been inflated by the promises of Tesla in delivering devices at around $A4,000 (after exchange rates). But this did not include inverters, other technology and installation. That led to expectations of low costs and a search for cheaper products.

Wehl recounts one recent product demonstration for installers by another battery storage brand that finished badly when the device “made a loud bang” as the capacitor blew.

“There were about 10 contractors in the room and we all had the same thought – we are not buying this for at least another 12 months. It seems that everyone is racing their products to the market, but some are not ready.”

Glen Morris, the chief technical expert on the ESC, is working with Standards Australia on developing a new standard – AS/NZS5139 – for new battery storage chemistries.

But he says it is a long process, particularly given that many of the people working on developing new standards work on a “voluntary capacity.”

He is in favour of a system adopted in Germany, known as KIT, which gives a weighting system on battery storage products. Any product below a given weighting cannot be installed.

“Anyone can sell a battery storage system in Australia,” Morris says. At the moment, the onus falls on the manufacturer providing safety guidance on they technology. He recommends consumers ask for a safety data sheet (SDS), but he says that few manufacturers provide them.

“I wouldn’t be putting chemistries inside a building until I knew it was inherently safe,” he says.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/fire-sparks-concerns-over-lack-of-standards-on-batte...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #38 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 3:26pm
 
juliar wrote on May 27th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Gosh the Greeny type DDH is trying to sound intelligent. Didn't work.

Gosh, is Juliar getting all tryhard upper middle class to try and wipe away the stain of copper internet?
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #39 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:50am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 15th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
This alarming report continues...

While there were approval processes for solar panels – just recently updated to make them an ongoing and “random” search rather than a once off – and for inverters, there were none for battery storage. And there were no restrictions on the people who could install battery storage devices.

“Some people are out to make a quick buck and it’s more common than I’d like to think,” Hickey says. “Some of these smaller players will damage the industry for the rest of us who are trying to do good work.”

Hickey says this could prompt an overreaction from the government and incumbent utilities, with unjustified and costly restrictions put on the industry. “I’m very excited about battery storage, but I do have concerns about a few minority installers and the damage they can do the industry.”

Indeed, the overwhelming message from the solar and battery storage industry is that – like most industries – you get what you pay for. The fear is that Australian households – having gravitated, particularly in the early years, to the “cheap” end of the solar market – may do the same with battery storage.

Jeff Wehl, from Ecoelectric, an installer of rooftop solar and hybrid battery storage systems in Queensland, is one of those who says he fears many Australian consumers will fall into the same trap as they did with rooftop solar, buying cheaper and lower quality products in a bid to save money.

He said expectations of cheap batteries had been inflated by the promises of Tesla in delivering devices at around $A4,000 (after exchange rates). But this did not include inverters, other technology and installation. That led to expectations of low costs and a search for cheaper products.

Wehl recounts one recent product demonstration for installers by another battery storage brand that finished badly when the device “made a loud bang” as the capacitor blew.

“There were about 10 contractors in the room and we all had the same thought – we are not buying this for at least another 12 months. It seems that everyone is racing their products to the market, but some are not ready.”

Glen Morris, the chief technical expert on the ESC, is working with Standards Australia on developing a new standard – AS/NZS5139 – for new battery storage chemistries.

But he says it is a long process, particularly given that many of the people working on developing new standards work on a “voluntary capacity.”

He is in favour of a system adopted in Germany, known as KIT, which gives a weighting system on battery storage products. Any product below a given weighting cannot be installed.

“Anyone can sell a battery storage system in Australia,” Morris says. At the moment, the onus falls on the manufacturer providing safety guidance on they technology. He recommends consumers ask for a safety data sheet (SDS), but he says that few manufacturers provide them.

“I wouldn’t be putting chemistries inside a building until I knew it was inherently safe,” he says.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/fire-sparks-concerns-over-lack-of-standards-on-batte...

did the exploding capacitor spark a lithium thermal runaway ....... what happened as a result jules...... Wink Wink Wink
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« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:57am by DonDeeHippy »  

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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #40 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:53am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 15th, 2018 at 1:36pm:
Dumb DDH has copied MY GOOD post and then added 1 line of indescribably dribbling nonsense. What an attention seeking troll.
Why does the drongo do this ? Must be masochistic and likes to humiliate him/herself.

Now a very welcome change from the dribbling nonsense of the DDH troll and a look at batteries including the fiery death trap Lithium ones.



How Safe Are Solar Battery Storage Systems?

The solar battery revolution will soon start really getting into gear in Australia. According to a survey carried out in 2017, safety is among the major concerns of Australians considering purchasing energy storage - and this includes environmental safety issues when a battery system reaches the end of its service life.

For those of you wishing to dive into the technical nitty-gritty of these issues, this report (PDF) by the Clean Energy Council contains everything you'd ever need to know about home battery storage system safety.

For everyone else, here's an overview:

Solar battery storage, regardless of whether it's lithium ion, lead acid, flow or aqueous hybrid ion, is perfectly safe if it is installed by an accredited electrician and properly maintained.

However, the inherent safety behind battery storage does vary between competing technologies. Even within each technology, quality in this regard will vary between manufacturers and how the system is installed.

Lead acid batteries are generally safe, and easily recyclable. By "generally safe", it needs to be kept in mind that lead acid batteries emit an explosive combination of hydrogen and oxygen gases towards the final stage of charging, so adequate ventilation is very important.

While it sounds a little offputting, it's just a case of avoiding a potentially dangerous situation by observing appropriate care and maintenance when working with lead-acid batteries. The danger level is really not much different to that associated with petrol powered cars and gas used in the home.

Lithium ion batteries pose a fire hazard if not installed properly, or if you use inferior quality batteries. This is due to the chemistry behind lithium-ion batteries making them more prone to 'thermal runaway'  if they are damaged or if they overheat.

Thermal runaway is a phenomenon whereby where an increase in temperature fuels a further boost in temperature, which can very rapidly lead to a battery venting with flame or even exploding.

Because 'lithium ion' is an umbrella term that describes a wide variety of lithium chemistries (such as lithium iron phosphate, lithium cobalt oxide, lithium manganese oxide and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide), it's important to note that some types of lithium ion batteries are much safer than others. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is considered the safest in terms of thermal runaway risk and is the most durable lithium battery chemistry.

Aside from the type of lithium-ion chemistry, safety will also depend on the systems built into the battery. For example, Tesla's Powerwall battery also boasts a special safety feature that seals off any thermally unstable cells if they pose a thermal runaway risk, which is why they're rated for both outdoor and indoor installations.

Lithium ion batteries are very difficult to dispose of/recycle, making them hazardous from an environmental perspective.

Flow batteries are much more environmentally friendly, and have a very low fire risk due to the chemistry of the solutions they contain, such as zinc-bromide electrolyte, which is essentially a fire retardant. They're also very easy to recycle.

Salt water batteries are non-toxic, non-flammable, and non-explosive. Their chemistry is inherently safe and not capable of thermal runaway. The batteries are also entirely touch-safe, and environmentally friendly to recycle.

One other important safety issue regardless of chemistry or battery type relates to the primary purpose of the product - to store energy, and a lot of it; i.e there is a potential electrocution hazard.

In short? Don't skimp on battery system quality or installation costs. Get the job done right, and your home battery storage system will operate safely and have a long service life.

National standards are currently being developed by Standards Australia  to ensure safe home energy storage products are used in Australia and that they are installed correctly. Additionally, the Clean Energy Council has introduced installation guidelines for home battery systems. The CEC's Battery Installation Guidelines for Accredited Installers (PDF) became mandatory as of the beginning of November 2017.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/safety/

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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #41 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 7:00am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 15th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
Will your lithium solar storage battery burn your house down ?  See what they do to Tesla cars!!!



Fire sparks concerns over lack of standards on battery storage
By Giles Parkinson on 18 March 2016

Images of an “exploded” lithium-ion battery storage device in a household garage in Victoria have been doing the rounds of social media, highlighting the risks and the lack of formal standards in a technology that is expected to be at the heart of a booming billion dollar industry in Australia.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/growatt-1.jpg
growatt 1

It is estimated that 50,000 battery storage systems could be installed in Australia over the next 12 months, and more than a million within a decade. Some suggest more than two million homes could have battery storage in a relatively short time.

It is hailed as the continuation of an energy revolution that will shift the onus on power supply from large centralised generators to the home and business. The CSIRO and leading utilities such as Engie predict half of all generation will come from local distributed sources, and battery storage will play a key role.

Australia is seen to be at the cutting edge of this revolution. Even the Coalition government appears to be on board. But the stark fact is that there are no official standards setting the rules and guidelines for new battery storage chemistries such as lithium ion in Australia, and there may not be for another three to five years.


This is raising concerns among installers and industry leaders about the potential fall-out if real damage is done, particularly if consumers aim for the “cheap” end of the market, as many did with rooftop solar.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/growatt-2.jpg
growatt 2

The images above first appeared on the social media website Whirlpool, where there are a range of theories as to what may have happened. The fire appears to have been contained and there are no reports of any injuries.

This incident occurred with a system produced by Growatt, a manufacturer considered to be at the “premium” end of the Chinese market. It has sent out a team from China to investigate the incident. RenewEconomy sought to contact the team but was not successful.

These photos were taken from an installation in Victoria. It is not known what caused the “explosion”, although it is assumed to be a case of “thermal runaway.” It is not known whether it is an installation fault or a problem with the system, or some third party factors.

The hope is that this a one-off. The fear is that the lack of standards means it may not be. The nature of battery storage systems and the energy and the chemicals that they embody potentially make them the most dangerous electronic item to be put in a home, as AGL’s head of new energy Marc England pointed out last year.

John Grimes, the CEO of the Energy Storage Council, says there are Australian standards in place for lead acid battery storage technologies (although these are 20 years old and need to be updated) but there are no standards for new chemistries such as lithium-ion.

The ESC is about to release a package of “best practice” guidelines for battery storage products, installations and maintenance that it hopes will act as an interim standard for battery storage developers and installers, and as a guide to consumers.




This alarming report continues overleaf

so a cheepo chinese battery pack failed, that doesn't look like one of those burn everything down to molten metal sort of thermal lithium fires...
doesn't look like a bomb Wink Wink
so what did cause the fire jules its been a few years.... it could of been a capacitor, and it obviously didn't burn down the house...... Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #42 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 12:56pm
 
More meaningless attention seeking drool from the dumb boring troll.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #43 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 7:26pm
 
Hey socko. Back in the late 90's GM's EV1 powered by NiMH batteries never had trouble with fires. What happened to it ? Guess who sat on the battery patents for years and wouldn't license it to anyone ?

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #44 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 9:07pm
 
Even more meaningless attention seeking drool from the other dumb boring troll.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #45 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 10:22pm
 
juliar wrote on Jun 19th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
Even more meaningless attention seeking drool from the other dumb boring troll.


Hey socko what happened to the fire proof GM EV1 using NiMH battery chyemistry ?

Checkout the smoking gun ladies and gentlemen. Socko and his evil oily mates just don't want the public to own EV's period !! Sad

http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

Quote:
California’s 1990 ZEV mandate forced GM and other auto makers to produce Battery Electric cars such as the GM EV1. GM purchased control of the patents from the inventor, Stan and the late Iris Ovshinsky, in 1994 forming “GM Ovonics” under the guise of going into production with the EV1. But GM’s Andy Card had been fighting Electric cars for years, and GM’s true intention became apparent when on Oct. 10, 2000, GM agreed to sell their control of the EV batteries to Texaco. Less than a week later, on Oct. 16, 2000, only days after Texaco acquired control of the batteries, Chevron agreed to purchase Texaco in a $100 billion merger. Chevron announced the merger even though the GM sale of the batteries to what would become Chevron did not close untilJuly 17, 2000. Perhaps Chevron wanted this sale to be announced prior to the merger so it would not look like Chevron (formerly Standard Oil of California) worked directly with GM. > >>

GM and Chevron collaborated with Toyota-Panasonic in such a way that these batteries were killed, and no such NiMH batteries are available for EVs. Chevron, awash in oil profits, assets and cash reserves, claims that “it’s a chicken and egg problem” of “no demand”, but that does not explain why they sued Panasonic, extracting $30,000,000. Shortly thereafter, the EV-95 line of proven, NiMH batteries still running in the RAV4-EV was shut down and killed, and the batteries cannot be sold or imported into the USA, according to one Toyota spokesperson. Only a few used EV-95, salvaged from crushed vehicles, are available, and those only for warranty replacement on existing RAV4-EV. Toyota won’t sell even these used batteries to EV converters, who need long-lasting, reliable batteries and can’t get them.

“A senior Chevron executive was quoted off-the-record as saying that Chevron was determined not to go down the BEV path again and never to let that happen again in the automotive industry, at least not with NiMH batteries.” Chevron, by virtue of its purchase, apparently wants cars to be powered by gasoline and not by NiMH batteries large enough to drive cars from electric plug-in power.> >>

Chevron’s unit that controls the patents, cobasys, refuses to sell their version of the battery unless, they say, they get “a large OEM order”. Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either> >>

Auto and oil industry detractors — “oilliars” — claim that “the batteries are not ready” for a plug-in Prius. They hope you don’t know about the existing, still-running 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV, which operates entirely on batteries with no help from any Internal Combustion (“IC”) component. It’s easy to add a small engine-generator to this proven EV, and have an instant plug-in hybrid that runs like an EV for 100 miles, and then relies on the generator (like a diesel-electric locomotive, and they are very powerful). Over 1000 RAV4-EV are running far over 100,000 miles with EV-95 NiMH deep-cycling as the only power source for the RAV4-EV> >>

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #46 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 10:44pm
 
The silly old troll is rabbiting off topic fool drool. What a drongo. The silly fool hasn't got the faintest idea about the topic and is just posting any rubbish simply to try to get attention as trolls do.


...



solarguy • a year ago

I'm not going to be an alarmist at this stage, however I'm quietly concerned. I know a guy who is on the standards committee, he is level headed, intelligent and has been in the solar and battery storage industry for far longer than I have and the last thing he would agree to is this total utter bullshit. In fact he is a mentor of mine and to countless other installers and designers.

So here are some facts about battery storage for hybrid and off grid dwellings as per the Australian standards and have been as long as I know of:

1. No battery chemistry in relation to Hybrid or off grid installation is allowed inside the living envelope of a house. e.g living room, bed room, kitchen or laundry and I'm sure you get the big picture here!

2. A garage has been ok as some Li - Ion batteries like Enphase are not IP 54 and so must be installed out of the weather. CGL, Powerwall and the newer LG's and some others are IP 54 or greater (IP65 like GCL) and so can be installed out side of a house, on a wall.

The IP rating allows this and in my view that is the best place for Li-Ion chemistries for mainly one reason and it's not fire so much, as the very toxic gas that Li-Ion chemistry batteries can give off if they fail catastrophically. That gas will react with animal mucous membranes, worse than mustard gas and burn your respiratory tract, including the very much needed lungs!

3. In my mind there is no need, what so ever, if these batteries that are IP 54 or IP 65 needing anything like a free standing enclosure if placed either outside or in a garage, if that garage is vented to the atmosphere.

4. The fire authorities are the only one's that may have a problem, but let's wait and see what their concerns could be.

In ending, I find it interesting that John Grimes of who I have acquaintance with from time to time, as I'm a member of ASC and the Energy Storage Council, didn't want to make comment on the matter, but I'm sure he is getting info before he responds.

What has been going on with politics and renewables lately, I have to say I smell a bloody big rat.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #47 - Jun 19th, 2018 at 11:35pm
 
A home conflagration caused by an exploding lithium home storage battery will be just like a Tesla car lithium battery fire - only much bigger with toxic smoke billowing everywhere.

What will the home insurance company say ?  Sorry you are NOT COVERED!!!





Battery sector fights fire-risk rules
GRAHAM LLOYD Environment Editor Sydney The Australian 12:00AM July 11, 2017

...
Industry groups and manufacturers say modern solar batteries are designed not to overheat.

The fast-growing solar battery storage industry is engaged in a furious 11th-hour battle to kill new regulations that would force home­owners to build a separate “fire bunker” housing for battery installations.

Industry and consumer groups have until August 15 to challenge draft recommendations issued by Standards Australia that could dramatically slow the uptake of residential battery storage.

Final draft recommendations include a ban on in-house battery banks and are designed to avoid a repeat of the pink batts debacle in which a well-intentioned environmental initiative proved deadly.

Industry groups and manufacturers say modern solar batteries are designed not to overheat and have described the new rules as overkill.

Sales of battery storage have risen to 6750 battery installations last year, up from 500 in 2015, ­according to a recent survey. Solar energy equipment supplier SunWiz forecasts at least a threefold increase this year.

Currently there are no Standards Australia regulations for in-home battery installations. The Clean Energy Council issued industry rules last year limiting home batteries to “a dedicated equipment room or battery room”.

The council said installers should take account of ventilation, extreme temperatures and exclude “habitable rooms” including bedrooms, living rooms, kitchens, sunrooms, bathrooms or laundries. Its rules included an exemption for “all-in-one” battery and inverter control systems.


However, the draft Australian Standards go much further.

Lithium ion batteries are classed as “fire hazard class 1”, and under the draft rules they must not be installed inside a domestic dwelling, within a metre of any access or egress area or under any part of a domestic dwelling.

To qualify, lithium ion batteries must effectively be housed in a 3m x 2m fire shelter with eaves.


The council’s voluntary code outlines the concerns. “Some lithium-based batteries can fail due to internal overheating, in a process known as ‘thermal runaway’,” the council says. “The normal chemical reactions within the battery during charging are exothermic (heat-generating).

“If this heat is not able to dissipate, or the battery is overcharged for a long duration, the rate of chemical reaction can then speed up, which in turn increases the battery temperature further, in an ­increasing cycle until the battery is physically damaged.

“Once this happens, there is a risk of fire and/or rupture of the battery, with emission of toxic material,’’ the council says.


Standards Australia chief executive Bronwyn Evans said the draft report was a “comprehensive document” that was “the result of many hours of work from experts representing industry, government and community interests”.

“The work is being driven by a range of stakeholders from all parts of industry who have an ­interest in standards in Australia that support the safe uptake of ­battery-storage systems in all buildings, but particularly in homes,” she said.

Dr Evans said the standards were devised to give consumers and industry confidence in innovative solutions.

“They should give markets and governments confidence when making regulatory and investment decisions and get the balance right between all the different interests and voices in the room,” she said.

At the end of the consultation period “we will have an installation standard for battery storage systems which supports the uptake of systems in Australia”.

Dr Evans said battery storage had been a focus of Chief ­Scientist Alan Finkel’s review into the ­future ­security of the National Electricity Market, released last month.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/battery-sector-fights-...
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #48 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 12:03am
 
Now as the authorities come to grips with the extreme danger of lithium home storage batteries the next question is should electric cars be allowed inside home garages as they are an even bigger hazard ?




If lithium-ion batteries are banned from homes, why not EVs?
By Phil Keogan on February 22, 2017

...

As residential energy storage systems using lithium-ion batteries have begun to proliferate, it’s natural that people would seek to better understand the safety features built into these systems. With this increasing focus on safety and recent headlines around the issue, it’s important for both users and regulators to have the information necessary to put individual reports into context.

Safety is something that manufactures like Sunverge have considered since the beginning. In fact, Sunverge was born out of decades long experience supplying into the North American utility industry.  Our products are designed as “network grade” with safety and reliability at their core. As residential and commercial battery storage becomes widespread, Sunverge fully supports the definition and evolution of a set of safety standards to guide existing players and new entrants in this important energy market.

At the same time, safety standards should be based on data and testing, which is what we believe should be the case for guidelines being drafted by Standards Australia.

As proposed, storage units in Australia would be permitted only in separate external enclosures, not in homes or garages. In spite of the fact that there are no current proposed rules concerning the parking of Electric Vehicles powered by lithium-ion batteries in garages.

We understand the concerns and that customers demand and deserve assurances of safety. That’s why Sunverge engaged in extensive fire safety testing last September, conducted as part of the effort by the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) to develop standards for storage installations indoors in homes in the city.

The results showed that our systems excelled when exposed to the most extreme conditions – in fact, the report concluded the overall design of the Sunverge One (formerly the Sunverge Solar Integration System) “appears to contain or isolate” the potential hazards of advanced lithium batteries. In addition, the report indicated the Sunverge One “demonstrated that a properly designed system may be highly manageable and does not pose additional undue risk to first responders or surrounding properties during extreme fire conditions”.

At the same time, we’ve designed our systems to be installed and operated safely both inside and outside buildings, securely mounted typically mounted on a seismic pad and in a robust containment system, so consumers can choose what’s best for them, whether for convenience of location or any other reason.

Similar concerns were raised in the past concerning, for example, the installation of diesel generators by homeowners. As standards bodies looked at the data from tests and the efforts of manufacturers to put safety at the forefront, they were able to create fact-based guidelines that have served consumers well.

Finally, as Australia looks for guidance, we are ready to help. The Sunverge One meets or exceeds all applicable industry and independent standards (including AS, IEC, UL, ANSI, IEEE, NFPA, ACMA and FCC). Our systems analyze more than 800 data points every 15 seconds and automatically adjusts to ideal parameters. The batteries we use in our hardware have an outstanding track record for safety having been originally developed foe marine and defense applications. So we stand behind the safety of our products. In fact, several Sunverge employees and partners have Sunverge units installed at their homes. We are pleased to share our knowledge and experience with Standards Australia.

https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/sunverge-stands-safety/
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #49 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 7:43am
 
All that and u can still put Battery packs in houses in Australia

Still none have blow up and burnt a house down, little on Blown up like a bomb.................. Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #50 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 10:35am
 
My Gosh that ridiculous troll is STILL hanging around.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #51 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 10:47am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 20th, 2018 at 10:35am:
My Gosh that ridiculous troll is STILL hanging around.

so when will tesla lithium battery pack's be banned from Homes Jules ? That's the thread title.
Just wondering..... U can still put them in houses and the articles u are using are about 18 months old. Wink Wink
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #52 - Jun 21st, 2018 at 9:48pm
 
MY GOODNESS!!! That ridiculous troll is STILL hanging around. The poor soul must be so desperate to try get some attention. Sad really to see someone reduced to such a state.


But ignoring the deliberately disruptive behavior of the sad troll and back to the TOPIC which is all Greek to the poor troll.

This is the risk you run when you put Lithium battery storage inside or close to your home

...


And even more scary - would your home insurance cover this ?


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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #53 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 6:00am
 
juliar wrote on Jun 21st, 2018 at 9:48pm:
MY GOODNESS!!! That ridiculous troll is STILL hanging around. The poor soul must be so desperate to try get some attention. Sad really to see someone reduced to such a state.


But ignoring the deliberately disruptive behavior of the sad troll and back to the TOPIC which is all Greek to the poor troll.

This is the risk you run when you put Lithium battery storage inside or close to your home


And even more scary - would your home insurance cover this ?



...
WoW Jules now your just putting pictures of houses burning down........ That's really pathetic. and yes house insurance in Australia will cover it and u can buy a Battery pack and put it in your living room if u really wanted.
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Re: Tesla lithium fire bombs to be banned in homes
Reply #54 - Jun 22nd, 2018 at 10:54am
 
Gosh that normally ignored ridiculous troll drongo is STILL hanging around trying to get some attention with silly off topic spamming.  Can't be the full quid.

Must be so in awe of my superior ability he/she is stalking me.
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