Australian Politics Forum - Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews

freediver

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Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
May 26^th, 2018 at 8:57am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2018 at 3:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2018 at 6:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2018 at 12:21pm:

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 8:04pm:

If we look at how Muslim-majority government have traditionally imposed the jizya, it's been an additional levy on top of any existing tax they have to pay. It's designed to separate them from the broader Muslim-majority. It is discriminatory in practice.

Can you cite any actual examples of this 'double tax'?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 3:47pm:

In this Islamic state of yours,

Lets not get carried away please. I never advocated an "Islamic state" - personally I find the idea antithetical to the spirit of the Quran. In my opinion the Quran was merely referring to a scenario in which a war in which the muslims were attacked was concluded, and the muslim army prevailed. Obviously there has to be some temporary arrangement in place whereby the victors ensure that the subdued remain a non-threat to the muslim community, and to ensure a lasting peace. Not dissimilar to how the Allies occupied the subdued nations of Japan and Germany for a period, but later handed control back when they were no longer a threat. Think of the jizya as some combination of assurance fee + reparations for initiating hostilities.

In short, the Quran's advise on the conduct of war and how to deal with the conquered is good universal advise, and incidentally not dissimilar to current international treaties and agreements on those issues, for any nation who faces hostility - muslim or non-muslim.

There is an example from Islamic literature of Muhammad "taxing" a bunch of Jews 100% of their property. He allowed them to continue farming it, provided they accept an additional 50% tax of everything they produced.

Thats a lovely story FD. Can you point me to an actual source?

According to Gandalf, this is "similar" to how the allies treated the Japan and Germany after WWII, and also "good and universal advice".

622: Muhammad moves to Medina.

625: The Banu Nadir are the second of the three large tribes of Jews to be expelled from Medina. This was, of course, the Jews' fault. Most of them moved to Khaybar.

628: Muhammad attacks Khaybar. Again, this is the Jews' fault. Muhammad's initial terms for their surrender was that they leave the region and lose all their property. Some of them negotiated to remain and farm their land provided that they give Muhammad 50% of their produce. Muhammad tortures and then kills one of the Jewish treasurers to get the Jew gold.

642: Jews and Christians expelled from Khaybar (and the broader Hejaz region) by Caliph Umar under his campaign of ethnic cleansing to fulfill Muhammad's expressed intention to rid the area of non-Muslims.

From the wikipedia articles:

The Jewish community of northern Arabia was one of the largest ancient Jewish communities in the history of the Jewish people.

[According to Gandalf they were not "bona fide" Jews, but the pagans in the area were basically Jews who worshiped a few extra Gods.]

Two ahadith of Bukhari state that the major purpose for raiding Khaybar was to procure food: Narrated 'Aisha: When Khaibar was conquered, we said, "Now we will eat our fill of dates!" (Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 547); Narrated Ibn Umar: We did not eat our fill except after we had conquered Khaibar. (Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 548).

The Jews of Khaybar finally surrendered after seeing no way out and were allowed to live in the oasis on the condition that they would give one-half of their produce to the Muslims. Jews continued to live in the oasis for several more years until they were expelled by caliph Umar. The imposition of tribute upon the conquered Jews served as a precedent for provisions in the Islamic law requiring the exaction of tribute known as jizya from Dīn under Muslim rule, and confiscation of land belonging to non-Muslims into the collective property of the Muslim community.

Muhammad met with Ibn Abi al-Huqaiq, al-Katibah and al-Watih[51] to discuss the terms of surrender. As part of the agreement, the Jews of Khaybar were to evacuate the area, and surrender their wealth. The Muslims would cease warfare and not hurt any of the Jews. After the agreement, some Jews approached Muhammad with a request to continue to cultivate their orchards and remain in the oasis. In return, they would give one-half of their produce to the Muslims.[51] According to Ibn Hisham's version of the pact with Khaybar, it was concluded on the condition that the Muslims "may expel you [Jews of Khaybar] if and when we wish to expel you." Norman Stillman believes that this is probably a later interpolation intended to justify the expulsion of Jews in 642.[43] The agreement with the Jews of Khaybar served as an important precedent for Islamic Law in determining the status of dhimmis, (non-Muslims under Muslim rule).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Nadir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Khaybar

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #1 - May 31^st, 2018 at 2:05pm

Quote:

After they were sent into exile in 625 from Medina by Muslim forces, the Banu Nadir had settled in Khaybar. In 627, the Nadir chief Huyayy ibn Akhtab together with his son joined the Meccans and Bedouins besieging Medina during the Battle of the Trench.[14] In addition, the Nadir paid Arabian tribes to go to war against the Muslims. Bribing Banu Ghatafan with half of their harvest, Banu Nadir secured 2,000 men and 300 horsemen from the tribe to attack Muhammad,[15][16] and similarly persuaded the Bani Asad.[17] They attempted to get the Banu Sulaym attack the Muslims, but the tribe gave them only 700 men, since some of its leaders were sympathetic towards Islam. The Bani Amir refused to join them all together, as they had a pact with Muhammad.[18] Once the battle started, Huyayy ibn Akhtab persuaded the Banu Qurayza to go against their covenant with Muhammad and turn against him during the battle.[19]

...

Quote:

Many scholars have considered the above machinations of the Nadir as a reason for the battle. According to Montgomery Watt, their intriguing and use of their wealth to incite tribes against Muhammad left him no choice but to attack.[25] Vaglieri concurs that one reason for attack was that the Jews of Khaybar were responsible for the Confederates that attacked Muslims during the Battle of the Trench.[10] Shibli Numani also sees Khaybar's actions during the Battle of the Trench, and draws particular attention to Banu Nadir's leader Huyayy ibn Akhtab, who had gone to the Banu Qurayza during the battle to instigate them to attack Muhammad.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #2 - Jun 4^th, 2018 at 6:40pm How is Muhammad's treatment of the Khaybar Jews similar to modern international treaties, or the post WWII treatment of Japan and Germany? Which modern treaties endorse ethnic cleansing?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #3 - Jun 4^th, 2018 at 6:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31^st, 2018 at 2:05pm:

Quote:

After they were sent into exile in 625 from Medina by Muslim forces, the Banu Nadir had settled in Khaybar. In 627, the Nadir chief Huyayy ibn Akhtab together with his son joined the Meccans and Bedouins besieging Medina during the Battle of the Trench.[14] In addition, the Nadir paid Arabian tribes to go to war against the Muslims. Bribing Banu Ghatafan with half of their harvest, Banu Nadir secured 2,000 men and 300 horsemen from the tribe to attack Muhammad,[15][16] and similarly persuaded the Bani Asad.[17] They attempted to get the Banu Sulaym attack the Muslims, but the tribe gave them only 700 men, since some of its leaders were sympathetic towards Islam. The Bani Amir refused to join them all together, as they had a pact with Muhammad.[18] Once the battle started, Huyayy ibn Akhtab persuaded the Banu Qurayza to go against their covenant with Muhammad and turn against him during the battle.[19]

...

Quote:

Many scholars have considered the above machinations of the Nadir as a reason for the battle. According to Montgomery Watt, their intriguing and use of their wealth to incite tribes against Muhammad left him no choice but to attack.[25] Vaglieri concurs that one reason for attack was that the Jews of Khaybar were responsible for the Confederates that attacked Muslims during the Battle of the Trench.[10] Shibli Numani also sees Khaybar's actions during the Battle of the Trench, and draws particular attention to Banu Nadir's leader Huyayy ibn Akhtab, who had gone to the Banu Qurayza during the battle to instigate them to attack Muhammad.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

A link from your link-

Quote:

Ibn Ishaq writes about Kenana ibn al-Rabi,[2]

Kenana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kenana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kenana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud

In addition to Ibn Ishaq's narration Al-Tabari writes:
The Prophet gave orders concerning Kenana to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kenana’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kenana was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him. -- Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 122

Shortly after the death of Kenana, Muhammad took his widowed wife Safiyya bint Huyayy as his captive, prior to marrying her and granting her emancipation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenana_ibn_al-Rabi

$$Profit Mo robbed the jews and ordered to torture of Kenana who had his head chopped off after they lit a fire on his chest, Muhammad then married Safiyya who was Kenanas wife shortly after.

For some reason people believe Muhammad was a prophet from god. Roll Eyes

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #4 - Jun 5^th, 2018 at 11:24am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 4^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

For some reason people believe Muhammad was a prophet from god.

For some reason people believe a few guys who invaded someone else's land and systematically slaughtered men, women and children - were prophets from god.

But you know, as they say - different strokes for different folks.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #5 - Jun 5^th, 2018 at 3:56pm Gandalf how is Muhammad's practice of slaughtering Jews, ethnic cleansing, 100% taxation etc similar to modern treaties or the treatment of Japan and German after WWII?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #6 - Jun 5^th, 2018 at 6:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 5^th, 2018 at 11:24am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 4^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

For some reason people believe Muhammad was a prophet from god.

For some reason people believe a few guys who invaded someone else's land and systematically slaughtered men, women and children - were prophets from god.

But you know, as they say - different strokes for different folks.

If we look at the Islamic state, Boko Haram in Nigeria al shaabab in Somalia and the Taliban these muslims all do the exact same things Muhammad did, they did not claim to be $$Profits from God they followed the example of the $$Profit in their religion.

Quote:

Sahih International
There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

https://quran.com/33/21

There you go the Quran says following the example of Muhammad is a great way to meet Allah therefore child brides polygamy raping robbing and chopping the heads off with disbelievers and having coptic christian sex slaves is halal. Muhammad was a slave trader so being a slave trader is also halal if you desire to meet Allah.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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yragnitup

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #7 - Jun 5^th, 2018 at 7:29pm

Ok, I've heard all the excuse for the Jewish pogrom , now whats Muhammad's excuse to exterminate the Christians?

It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say:
I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
Reference: Sahih Muslim 1767 a » The Book of Jihad and Expeditions
In-book reference : Book 32, Hadith 75

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Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them - Quran 55:56, Mushi

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #8 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 12:09pm Somehow its just never quite gotten through to FD how pointless it is to demand someone justify something he doesn't believe happened in the first place.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #9 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 12:10pm I gave you an example of 100% taxation.
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yragnitup

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #10 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 12:45pm

This is the Pact of Umar (non exhaustive list) which was imposed on Dhimmies after the conquer of Jerusalem. It not much different to what ISIS did to the population in Mosul Chaliphate city recently(after slaughtering the infidel Yazidis)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar

Prohibition against building new churches, places of worship, monasteries, monks or a new cell. (Hence it was also forbidden to build new synagogues, although it is known that new synagogues were built after the occupation of the Islam, for example in Jerusalem and Ramle. The law that prohibits to build new synagogues was not new for the Jews, it was applied also during the Byzantines. It was new for the Christians.)
Prohibition against rebuilding destroyed churches, by day or night, in their own neighborhoods or those situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
Prohibition against hanging a cross on the Churches.
Muslims should be allowed to enter Churches (for shelter) in any time, both in day and night.
Obliging the call of prayer by a bell or a kind of Gong (Nakos) to be low in volume.
Prohibition of Christians and Jews against raising their voices at prayer times.
Prohibition against teaching non-Muslim children the Qur'an. ( Grin

so that they don't learn of its stupudity when young??

)
Christians were forbidden to show their religion in public, or to be seen with Christian books or symbols in public, on the roads or in the markets of the Muslims.
Palm Sunday and Easter parades were banned.
Funerals should be conducted quietly.
Prohibition against burying non-Muslim dead near Muslims.
Prohibition against raising a pig next to a Muslims neighbor.
Christian were forbidden to sell Muslims alcoholic beverage.
Christians were forbidden to provide cover or shelter for spies.
Prohibition against telling a lie about Muslims.
Obligation to show deference toward Muslims. If a Muslim wishes to sit, non-Muslim should be rise from his seats and let the Muslim sit.
Prohibition against preaching to Muslims in an attempt to convert them from Islam.
Prohibition against preventing the conversion to Islam of some one who wants to convert.
The appearance of the non-Muslims has to be different from those of the Muslims: Prohibition against wearing Qalansuwa (kind of dome that was used to wear by Bedouin), Bedouin turban (Amamh), Muslims shoes, and Sash to their waists. As to their heads, it was forbidden to comb the hair sidewise as the Muslim custom, and they were forced to cut the hair in the front of the head. Also non-Muslim shall not imitate the Arab-Muslim way of speech nor shall adopt the kunyas (Arabic byname, such as "abu Khattib").
Obligation to identify non-Muslims as such by clipping the heads' forelocks and by always dressing in the same manner, wherever they go, with binding the zunar (a kind of belt) around the waists. Christians to wear blue belts or turbans, Jews to wear yellow belts or turbans, Zoroastrians to wear black belts or turbans, and Samaritans to wear red belts or turbans.
Prohibition against riding animals in the Muslim custom, and prohibition against riding with a saddle.
Prohibition against adopting a Muslim title of honor.
Prohibition against engraving Arabic inscriptions on signet seals.
Prohibition against any possession of weapons.
Non-Muslims must host a Muslim passerby for at least 3 days and feed him.
Non-Muslims prohibited from buying a Muslim prisoner.
Prohibition against taking slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
Prohibition against non-Muslims to lead, govern or employ Muslims.
If a non-Muslim beats a Muslim, his Dhimmi is removed.
The worship places of non-Muslims must be lower in elevation than the lowest mosque in town.
The houses of non-Muslims must not be taller in elevation than the houses of Muslims.

Also on Jizyah
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Quran 9 29) about jizyah
(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2566&Itemid=64

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Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them - Quran 55:56, Mushi

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews
Reply #11 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 1:03pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2018 at 3:56pm:

Gandalf how is Muhammad's practice of slaughtering Jews, ethnic cleansing, 100% taxation etc similar to modern treaties or the treatment of Japan and German after WWII?

you must be referring to this:

Quote:

the Quran's advise on the conduct of war and how to deal with the conquered is good universal advise, and incidentally not dissimilar to current international treaties and agreements on those issues, for any nation who faces hostility - muslim or non-muslim.

Read it again slowly FD - particularly the first 3 words.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #12 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 1:05pm Were Muhammad's actions consistent with the Quran's advice? What does the Quran say about Muhammad?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #13 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 1:11pm There you go shifting the goalposts FD. tsk tsk Now we're at the part where I must justify your fairy tale version of history.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad and the Khaybar Jews Reply #14 - Jun 6^th, 2018 at 1:15pm Is it a difficult question Gandalf? Were Muhammad's actions consistent with the Quran's advice?
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