Abu used to tell us that Islam "owns" Israel and Spain and would soon win them back in an inevitable great victory.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:19pm:


freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:54pm:


From the Quran:

http://www.clearquran.com/009.html

28. O you who believe! The polytheists are polluted, so let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, God will enrich you from His grace, if He wills. God is Aware and Wise.

http://www.clearquran.com/003.html

96. The first house established for mankind is the one at Bekka; blessed, and guidance for all people.

97. In it are evident signs; the Station of Abraham. Whoever enters it attains security. Pilgrimage to the House is a duty to God for all who can make the journey. But as for those who refuse—God is Independent of the worlds.

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

191. And kill them wherever you overtake them, and expel them from where they had expelled you. Oppression is more serious than murder. But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you there. If they fight you, then kill them. Such is the retribution of the disbelievers.

217. They ask you about fighting during the Holy Month. Say, “Fighting during it is deplorable; but to bar others from God’s path, and to disbelieve in Him, and to prevent access to the Holy Mosque, and to expel its people from it, are more deplorable with God. And persecution is more serious than killing. They will not cease to fight you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can. Whoever among you turns back from his religion, and dies a disbeliever—those are they whose works will come to nothing, in this life, and in the Hereafter. Those are the inmates of the Fire, abiding in it forever.

Hadith:

https://sunnah.com/search/expel-arabian-peninsula

’Umar (RAA) narrated, ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say, “I will certainly expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula so as to leave only Muslims in it.” Reported by Muslim.

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Two deens shall not co-exist in the Arabian Peninsula."

Malik said that Ibn Shihab said, ''Umar ibn al-Khattab searched for information about that until he was absolutely convinced that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, had said, 'Two deens shall not co-exist in the Arabian Peninsula,' and he therefore expelled the jews from Khaybar."

Malik said, ''Umar ibn al-Khattab expelled the jews from Najran (a jewish settlement in the Yemen) and Fadak (a jewish settlement thirty miles from Madina). When the jews of Khaybar left, they did not take any fruit or land. The jews of Fadak took half the fruit and half the land, because the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, had made a settlement with them for that. So Umar entrusted to them the value in gold, silver, camels, ropes and saddle bags of half the fruit and half the land, and handed the value over to them and expelled them."

The Prophet (ﷺ) on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, "Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them." I forgot the third (order)"

Mattyfisk wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:40pm:

It's all the Muslims. no need for maps.  It's the tribal, 'keep it in da family' instinct. All non-Muslims are the primitives - you know, what Islam was supposed to lift them out of but actually kept them in. Islam as a break on liberation. We all see THAT.
Islam as the institutionalised, established way to oppress, repress, disable human emancipation, self-realisation, creativity and yes, freedom.
Islam, Submission to unbearable primitive demands that no sane person would ever submit to.


Islam is nothing short of violation, institutionalised violation of the human spirit. It is a violence perpetrated on the human soul.

Every aspect of it is detrimental to humanity.


If anyone disagrees they are invited to show the positive effects of Islam on the world.

I cannot think of any but if you can, let us hear it.i

Gandalf assertion that Islam is only a state of mind, was in response to my question to my question whether he wishes Australia to become part of Islam. It put him in an awkward corner, and it took him a week to come up with this excuse for an answer.

A day later, he added the claim that because Islam is a frame of mind, and he is in that frame of mind, Australia is already part of Islam. If that is the case, the Mecca in Saudi Arabia is actually part of the West, because there is someone there in that frame of mind.

There is conflict in his assertion. Either Saudi Arabia is part of Islam, or its not. Either Australia is part of Islam, or its not.

Gandalf did not want to answer my question because it undermined his pose as an objective person, and shows he doesn't really give a damn for Australia. He only thinks of Mohamed , the Koran and Allah. That's his "frame of mind."

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 2:42pm:


The point is your assertion is bullsh1t, and just a way to avoid answering the question.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 2:42pm:



Islam is nothing short of violation, institutionalised violation of the human spirit. It is a violence perpetrated on the human soul.  Every aspect of it is detrimental to humanity.

If you disagree then you are invited to show the positive effects of Islam on the world.  I cannot think of any but if you can, let us hear it.

And please don't tell us about the golden age which was suppressed and ended by Muslims themselves in the name of Islam. We have heard that sorry excuse for today's Islam too many times already.

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 9:22pm:


The entire second half?

Thats a lot of verses FD - a bit more than the one chapter you have read.

issuevoter wrote on May 24^th, 2018 at 10:44am:


It is most definitely not the only religion that insists one will gain esoteric knowledge and thus become more aware of the reality. Christianity puts forth this notion. The reality of life after death, the reality of dying into Gods love.

I agree they are becoming throwbacks in this increasingly secular world, that is beginning to negate most principles of religion

Gandalf would you say that the Islamic state that Muhammad created was the very antithesis of Islam?

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2018 at 6:59pm:


Muhammed? Weren't we talking about Australia?

Frank wrote on May 24^th, 2018 at 7:55pm:


You haven't seen the inbreeding map?

Oh, old boy, where have you been?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2018 at 2:47pm:

Bollocks. On stilts.

Hadith. Prescribed behaviour in every imaginable situation. Islam mean Submission because that's what it demands and that is its outer limit. Look at any Muslim site, it's endless questions directed to the 'authorities' in Islamic 'knowledge' like Al Hilali and other peasants about what to do in any and all situations in life. Thinking and discovery are utterly alien to Islam. The fear of apostasy, fatwah, violence paralyses Muslims. They know what's going to happen to them if they start thinking for themselves - they get killed.


As for Allah-Muslim dialogue - you are lying and you know it, Gandalf (the 'basically' is your attempt to cover your lying arse (Karnal will be along in a moment)). There is no listening Allah, there is no truthful, knowable, approachable Allah who can be known. Allah is unknowable. You can't have a dialogue with the numinous, not even 'basically'. But Allah is not even numinous. he is a gauche and laughable creation of Mohammed. The Koran is full of evidence of Mohammed's complete misunderstanding of Judaism, Christianity and anything else he came across. The Muslim response to this is to say that the Jews and Christians have distorted their teachings ahead of Mohammed's arrival.

And to think that you CONVERTED to this!!!!

Frank wrote on May 25^th, 2018 at 6:28pm:


If you think about it, the last two sentences are not logically consistent with the rest of the paragraph.

You start out by saying Islam is doctrinally opposed to free thinking and discovery, then conclude by saying muslims are paralysed from doing that from fear of death. So you leave open the possibility that at least some muslims want to be free thinkers, and presumably don't consider it anathema to their religion - only they are prevented from doing so by other muslims. Note you didn't say that muslims are 'paralysed' by their conviction that free thinking is anathema to their beliefs - merely that they are terrified by the intimidation of other muslims (and might otherwise be perfectly happy with fusing learning and discovery with their religion).

So once again, we see the usual flawed logic of framing Islam as what some muslims deem it to be while ignoring the rest.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31^st, 2018 at 3:29pm:


http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Faith_Ratchet

A faith ratchet, or ideological ratchet, is a belief system that incorporates a mechanism for preventing dissent. A faith ratchet grows in a fundamentally different way to most ideological movements. Rather than being adopted at a faster rate than it is abandoned, it grows by preventing people from abandoning it, meaning that the idea will spread no matter how slowly it is adopted, or how limited the circumstances are in which it is appealing. A faith ratchet typically presents two faces, one to the outside world to which it is attempting to appeal intellectually, and the other internally, where it employs a very different technique to maintain its grip. That is, the mechanism by which it spreads is very different to the mechanism by which it prevents abandonment. This article explains the analogy to a ratchet, then gives examples of a ideological ratchets in action, including the historical spread of Islam, Nazism and Communism.

Gandalf is right. It's the religion that is the problem, not the people.

Frank wrote on May 31^st, 2018 at 8:12pm:


So I'm wondering why they 'think outside the straight-jacket of Muhammedan lunacy' in the first place - if its really "anathema to their religion".

Do you understand the logical fallacy yet?

moses wrote on May 31^st, 2018 at 4:17pm:


Good point moses. Just like everyone knows that when the Quran says 'no compulsion in religion' and 'whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve' - it really means slaughter people for their beliefs.

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2018 at 12:19pm:


People are ideologically opposed to seeking knowledge while simultaneously seeking to do it - apparently.

Both you and Frank are evidently closed-minded to the possibility that some muslims think that pursuit of knowledge is "Islamic" - just because we know some don't.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2018 at 12:35pm:


People are inclined to do all sorts of things that their ideology forbids. This is not a logical fallacy Gandalf. For the most part, the ideological exclusion makes sense when you consider the common good. In Islam's case, it makes sense from the perspective of further imposing Islam on people.

Quote:


It is not a logical fallacy in the case of Islam. Islam follows up ideological opposition with stoning cheating child brides to death.

If a Muslim woman confesses to adultery in the hope of getting a better seat in Islamic heaven, and is promptly stoned to death, is she ideologically opposed to her own behaviour? Is there also a culture of violence that is a bit more effective in actually stopping her behaviour, as well as any other women who notice what is going on?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 5^th, 2018 at 11:11am:


Where is this logical fallacy you were complaining about now? Has it disappeared? Is being ideologically opposed to your own innate tendencies, and being threatened with violence to back this up, now consistent with Islamic practice?

I expect there are plenty around who do object, as well as feeling threatened.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 6^th, 2018 at 10:25am:


No. It may be incorrect for those people it is incorrect for. But I still don't see the logical fallacy.

Perhaps you should make something up.

What's the difference between dumbing down and making up?