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Hydrogen the worse new energy (Read 1169 times)
DonDeeHippy
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Hydrogen the worse new energy
May 21st, 2018 at 3:08pm
 
http://evobsession.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-fail-in-depth/
I love the line
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.

750,000 Bevs in USA and 3000 fcev it’s not looking good.
Great idea but just so damm hard to implement
Maybe 20 years from now they will work out how to combat the high pressures and corrosiveness, until then it’s a fuel of the future.
Fool cells will make great range extenders for BEVs one day I just wonder if day should read year. Wink Wink
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DonDeeHippy
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #1 - May 22nd, 2018 at 6:24am
 
Looking at the red horsepower bars in this chart (also below), you can see that Toyota’s coming Mirai fuel cell car has even less horsepower than conventional hybrids despite costing much, much more (and note that Toyota is massively subsidizing the price of the Mirai in order to keep the price “low”). The Tesla Model S, on the other hand, has jaw-dropping performance for a similar price.
...
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #2 - May 22nd, 2018 at 6:25am
 
Hydrogen is new?
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DonDeeHippy
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2018 at 6:32am
 
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car Costs Relative To Performance
No doubt about it: people expect a certain level of performance, comfort, and convenience when they buy a car, with the overall quality of those based to a large degree on how much they pay. There are common phrases people use that argue that everything comes down to money. Of course, for most of us, everything doesn’t come down to money, but many decisions are made according to what you get for a certain amount of money (and how that compares to other things you could get for the same amount of money). And this is fundamentally why hydrogen fuel cell cars are always the cars “of the future” — they simply can’t compete with other cars, cost-wise, and they very likely never will.
Yes, there is always room for scientific breakthroughs, but the bottom line is as Elon Musk has put it: current lithium-ion batteries offer better results than the theoretical best hydrogen fuel cells. More specifically, “the reality is that if you took a fuel cell vehicle and you take the best case for a fuel cell vehicle in terms of the mass and volume required to go a particular range, as well as the cost of the fuel cell system… if you took the best case of that, it does not even equal the current state of the art of lithium ion batteries, and so there is no way for it to become a workable technology.”
I guess this is a good time to note that cars utilizing lithium-ion batteries and cars utilizing hydrogen fuel cells are electric vehicles. They are simply equipped with different energy storage mechanisms and drivetrains.
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DonDeeHippy
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2018 at 6:48am
 
https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11470/why-fuel-cell-cars-dont-work-part-1
I've been involved in the first international hydrogen racing championship. Started in 2007, it was called Formula Zero with 'zero' pertaining to being zero-emission. I was in one of the teams, known as Formula Zero Team Delft ('Forze') and my main raison d'être was designing and assembling electronics for the race kart. Yeah, they weren't actually full-fledged formula one cars; it was just small class racing karts. Top speed around 110-120km/h, 0-60 in about 3.5-4sec, nothing especially interesting about them from a racing perspective. But they were hydrogen powered, which was extremely cool back then and kind of still is - at least from a technical point of view. The Formula Zero championship eventually merged with Formula Student, so if you're interested in more info, take a look at their website. I am no longer involved with any of this - I've gone on to do my Master's thesis about power conversion in electric cars and I now have a couple of businesses that mostly do electronic system design for optimizing power conversion. In computers. Not quite the same anymore.

Nevertheless, I do have a lot of hands-on knowledge from my time at Formula Zero and I know what goes into building a hydrogen fuel cell powered car. I've done a lot of literature research and kept up with the technology. And: during all this time that hydrogen fuel cells have been in the news, I have never come across any kind of public article that properly explains WHY things are the way they are with these enigmatic machines. I've been meaning to write about it since at least 4 years, and thought I would have been beaten to the punch many times already. But no... so, here we go.

First of all, HFC cars are perceived to be a good bridge between fossil fuels and full electric because:
You can still fill up like you do with a gasoline or diesel powered car
The mileage you can get out of hydrogen is perceived to be more adequate than what you get from batteries
Hydrogen fuel cells are thought not to wear out as quickly as batteries (or conversely, batteries are thought to wear out very quickly)
Hydrogen as a fuel is perceived to be a relatively small infrastructural change from gasoline and diesel
Hydrogen is perceived as a cleaner solution than gasoline, diesel or natural gas
In reality,
You cannot fill up like you do with gasoline or diesel. It is actually pretty ridiculous how hard it is to fill up a HFC powered car
You won't even go 100 miles on current tech hydrogen tanks that are still safe to carry around in a car
Fuel cells wear out crazy fast and are hard to regenerate
Hydrogen as a fuel is incredibly hard to make and distribute with acceptably low losses
Additionally,
Hydrogen fuel cells have bad theoretical and practical efficiency
Hydrogen storage is inefficient, energetically, volumetrically and with respect to weight
HFCs require a poo ton of supporting systems, making them much more complicated and prone to failure than combustion or electric engines
There is no infrastructure for distributing or even making hydrogen in large quantities. There won't be for at least 20 or 30 years, even if we start building it like crazy today.
Hydrogen is actually pretty hard to make. It has a horrible well-to-wheel efficiency as a result.
Easy ways to get large quantities of hydrogen are not 'cleaner' than gasoline.
Efficient HFCs have very slow response times, meaning you again need additional systems to store energy for accelerating
Even though a HFC-powered car is essentially an electric car, you get none of the benefits like filling it up with your own power source, using it as a smart grid buffer, regenerating energy during braking, etc.
Battery electric cars will always be better in every way given the speed of technological developments past, present and future

The only thing i see is wrong with what he wrote is FCEV can go over 100 miles now but the rest is very interesting, 2 more articles after this one
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longweekend58
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #5 - May 22nd, 2018 at 8:05am
 
EVs cant compete with petrol cars on price either so what is your point?

I saw my first Tesla today. Ive seen more Ferraris than that.
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #6 - May 22nd, 2018 at 8:15am
 
longweekend58 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:05am:
EVs cant compete with petrol cars on price either so what is your point?

I saw my first Tesla today. Ive seen more Ferraris than that.

Ive never seen a news report that says a BEV wont have cost pairity, it just how many years away, some say2-3 some say 20, so BEV will be same price even cheeper than ice's and the biggist thing is no more oil from the middle east.
Hydrogen will never be cheeper, well unless there are a lot of new technologies discovered.
Bev's need scale, Fcev's need engineering. Wink Wink
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #7 - May 22nd, 2018 at 8:44am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:15am:
longweekend58 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:05am:
EVs cant compete with petrol cars on price either so what is your point?

I saw my first Tesla today. Ive seen more Ferraris than that.

Ive never seen a news report that says a BEV wont have cost pairity, it just how many years away, some say2-3 some say 20, so BEV will be same price even cheeper than ice's and the biggist thing is no more oil from the middle east.
Hydrogen will never be cheeper, well unless there are a lot of new technologies discovered.
Bev's need scale, Fcev's need engineering. Wink Wink



Yes because the entire petrochemical industry and everything that derives from that is of no use to us as a first world country at al, does it?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical
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longweekend58
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #8 - May 22nd, 2018 at 8:47am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:15am:
longweekend58 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:05am:
EVs cant compete with petrol cars on price either so what is your point?

I saw my first Tesla today. Ive seen more Ferraris than that.

Ive never seen a news report that says a BEV wont have cost pairity, it just how many years away, some say2-3 some say 20, so BEV will be same price even cheeper than ice's and the biggist thing is no more oil from the middle east.
Hydrogen will never be cheeper, well unless there are a lot of new technologies discovered.
Bev's need scale, Fcev's need engineering. Wink Wink



Ive been hearing that nonsense for over a decade. EVs are massively more expensive that petrol cars. And in Europe where they sell better than anywhere else is only because dumb Euro govt tax the crap outta petrol cars. Take away penalties and subsidies and EVs wouldnt sell more than 1% at best and R/E would be virtually unknown as well. ANY product that can only exist with massive subsidies is doomed to ultimate failure when those subsidies inevitably run out.
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DonDeeHippy
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #9 - May 22nd, 2018 at 9:03am
 
I never really looked into Fool cell cars until now, wow its so inefficient its amazing.
One 2 million dollar 'gas Station' can fill 36 toyota miras a day...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099548_gas-electricity-hydrogen-how-many-c...
According to the California Air Resources Board, those stations will have a maximum fueling capacity of 180 kilograms of hydrogen per day.
That's enough to fill 36 Toyota Mirai vehicles completely each day; the Mirai has a stated fuel capacity of 5 kg.
In other words, while the refueling process itself will likely take less than 10 minutes--or a total of six hours for those 36 Mirais--the other 18 hours is required for the necessary hydrogen to be generated and compressed.

A modern gas station and convenience store, with 12 pumps in three or four single or double ranks, can serve as many as 12 vehicles simultaneously and costs roughly $2 million to construct.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk said a few years ago that Supercharger sites cost $150,000 to build when connected to grid power, and $300,000 when photovoltaic solar panels were included to provide renewable electricity.
That works out to a theoretical maximum of 16,200 kilowatt-hours over a 24-hour day
If every car was an 85-kWh Model S taking up 60 kWh, that would be about 70 actual cars--but it's probably more than 100, assuming some partial charging.

The biggist thing to remember with BEV's is that almost all recharging is done at home, at night. The owners only need to use public chargers for long trips.
Not even mentioned it takes 5 times the electricity to make Hydrogen then ready it for a car than it does for a battery only electric car.
Shell and BP are now putting electric chargers in their gas stations, power already there and cheep to put one in, it will be a long time until they put in a Hydrogen pump that will cost 2 million dollars to fill 30 cars for the day. Wink Wink
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #10 - May 22nd, 2018 at 9:05am
 
BigOl64 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:44am:
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:15am:
longweekend58 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:05am:
EVs cant compete with petrol cars on price either so what is your point?

I saw my first Tesla today. Ive seen more Ferraris than that.

Ive never seen a news report that says a BEV wont have cost pairity, it just how many years away, some say2-3 some say 20, so BEV will be same price even cheeper than ice's and the biggist thing is no more oil from the middle east.
Hydrogen will never be cheeper, well unless there are a lot of new technologies discovered.
Bev's need scale, Fcev's need engineering. Wink Wink



Yes because the entire petrochemical industry and everything that derives from that is of no use to us as a first world country at al, does it?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical

Australia makes 5% of our oil, that will more than make all the plastics and other bits and pieces if we stop using oil for a fuel source. Wink Wink
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BigOl64
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #11 - May 22nd, 2018 at 9:17am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 9:05am:
BigOl64 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:44am:
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:15am:
longweekend58 wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 8:05am:
EVs cant compete with petrol cars on price either so what is your point?

I saw my first Tesla today. Ive seen more Ferraris than that.

Ive never seen a news report that says a BEV wont have cost pairity, it just how many years away, some say2-3 some say 20, so BEV will be same price even cheeper than ice's and the biggist thing is no more oil from the middle east.
Hydrogen will never be cheeper, well unless there are a lot of new technologies discovered.
Bev's need scale, Fcev's need engineering. Wink Wink



Yes because the entire petrochemical industry and everything that derives from that is of no use to us as a first world country at al, does it?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical

Australia makes 5% of our oil, that will more than make all the plastics and other bits and pieces if we stop using oil for a fuel source. Wink Wink



Not even close. Along with the fact we are shutting down our refineries, chemical plants we will be the third world utopia the greens have been dreaming about before too long.

We are anti-industry, we are anti- mining, we are anti- resources, we are anti-petrochemicals. Where do you think such an anti- industry country will end up?

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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #12 - May 22nd, 2018 at 9:19am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 9:03am:
I never really looked into Fool cell cars until now, wow its so inefficient its amazing.
One 2 million dollar 'gas Station' can fill 36 toyota miras a day...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099548_gas-electricity-hydrogen-how-many-c...
According to the California Air Resources Board, those stations will have a maximum fueling capacity of 180 kilograms of hydrogen per day.
That's enough to fill 36 Toyota Mirai vehicles completely each day; the Mirai has a stated fuel capacity of 5 kg.
In other words, while the refueling process itself will likely take less than 10 minutes--or a total of six hours for those 36 Mirais--the other 18 hours is required for the necessary hydrogen to be generated and compressed.

A modern gas station and convenience store, with 12 pumps in three or four single or double ranks, can serve as many as 12 vehicles simultaneously and costs roughly $2 million to construct.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk said a few years ago that Supercharger sites cost $150,000 to build when connected to grid power, and $300,000 when photovoltaic solar panels were included to provide renewable electricity.
That works out to a theoretical maximum of 16,200 kilowatt-hours over a 24-hour day
If every car was an 85-kWh Model S taking up 60 kWh, that would be about 70 actual cars--but it's probably more than 100, assuming some partial charging.

The biggist thing to remember with BEV's is that almost all recharging is done at home, at night. The owners only need to use public chargers for long trips.
Not even mentioned it takes 5 times the electricity to make Hydrogen then ready it for a car than it does for a battery only electric car.
Shell and BP are now putting electric chargers in their gas stations, power already there and cheep to put one in, it will be a long time until they put in a Hydrogen pump that will cost 2 million dollars to fill 30 cars for the day. Wink Wink



It's funny how there will only be technological advancements in batteries and absolutely none in hydrogen production. Lucky for you lot isn't it?

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Sir lastnail
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #13 - May 22nd, 2018 at 9:24am
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 21st, 2018 at 3:08pm:
http://evobsession.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-fail-in-depth/
I love the line
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.

750,000 Bevs in USA and 3000 fcev it’s not looking good.
Great idea but just so damm hard to implement
Maybe 20 years from now they will work out how to combat the high pressures and corrosiveness, until then it’s a fuel of the future.
Fool cells will make great range extenders for BEVs one day I just wonder if day should read year. Wink Wink


It's always 20 years away Cheesy LOL

Maybe socko and Big hole can give them a few ideas Cheesy LOL
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BigOl64
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Re: Hydrogen the worse new energy
Reply #14 - May 22nd, 2018 at 9:28am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 9:24am:
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 21st, 2018 at 3:08pm:
http://evobsession.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-fail-in-depth/
I love the line
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.

750,000 Bevs in USA and 3000 fcev it’s not looking good.
Great idea but just so damm hard to implement
Maybe 20 years from now they will work out how to combat the high pressures and corrosiveness, until then it’s a fuel of the future.
Fool cells will make great range extenders for BEVs one day I just wonder if day should read year. Wink Wink


It's always 20 years away Cheesy LOL

Maybe socko and Big hole can give them a few ideas Cheesy LOL



No matter what, you will still be driving your 1989  Corolla to the dole office ya povo loser.   Grin Grin Grin
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