Australian Politics Forum - Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants

Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92261 Gender:	Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants Reply #30 - May 15^th, 2018 at 10:40pm DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:16pm: If Indonesia is the biggest Muslim nation. then Pakistan , India the next biggest Muslim population then the millions of Chinese Muslims, and all the millions of westerners that r Muslim, umm what’s a Muslim look like ? Tinted.
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Mattyfisk

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #31 - May 15^th, 2018 at 10:42pm

Frank wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:30pm:

Frank wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:19pm:

Can you honestly conceive of an "Islamofascist" test that would let in any devout muslim? Obviously I could because I don't share you Islamophobic views, but I can't see how you could.

you can't regard Muhammad as the best of men AND be on the side of enlightenment and human self-determination (freedom) and dignity.

How do YOU recincile the unreconcilable in your own head??

By lying.

That's FD's logic too, and he's said as much on many occassions before. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't actually want to say it on this particular occassion. For doing so would be to concede that his "screening" process was a foregone conclusion before it even began. And of course he wouldn't want to appear to advocate a sham process.

It's not FD's logic.

It is logic. Islam has unnegotiable tenets that are irrecincilable with reason. Thank Muhammed. There is no way out of the 7th century mindset for you except by apostasy. He fooked your minds good and proper, for eternity. That's why you are so mindlessly violent every time Islam is chriticised or challenged. You really do think it it eternal, divine and unalterable.
Which is why you are eternallly casting yourselves out of civilisation and normal, sane society. Always jihad against the rest if the world.
None of that let live stuff. Jihad fo' eva!

Live and let live, old boy. That's the spirit.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #32 - May 16^th, 2018 at 10:33am

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:19pm:

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 10:25am:

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 7:52pm:

Every potential immigrant is screened

They are not all screened with the "are you a freedom-hating muslim" test. Only people who "appear" to be be muslim are. Thats religious discrimination FD.

I actually can't think of a way that any practicing muslim could get through under the sort of test FD would come up with:

officer: muslim - do you agree it is appropriate to slaughter innocent unarmed jews who only want freedom?
muslim: no sir
officer: but you do believe that Muhammad is the best of men, and the best example to follow right??
muslim: well yes...
officer: GUILTY!!

Are you saying that all Muslims are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy? Is that why it discriminates against Muslims?

No, but you've been saying it for years. Actual practicing muslims that is, not 'muslim in name only' muslims.

Can you honestly conceive of an "Islamofascist" test that would let in any devout muslim? Obviously I could because I don't share you Islamophobic views, but I can't see how you could.

Would you support such a test as you would come up with, or would it still discriminate against Muslims?

I've made it abundantly clear what I would support FD.

First and foremost I wouldn't as a first step go hunting for people who "appear muslim" so that I can give them a specific Islamofascist test (regardless of how 'fair' the actual test was) - as you propose. If I was to do any 'test' along the lines of our values, I would come up with a set of universal values, and ask everyone, regardless of race,creed or colour, the same set of questions. I won't advocate a process that involves firstly looking around at how people dress or their skin colour in order to determine what particular brand of anti-freedom/democracy ideology they might be susceptible to. I don't accept that the only way to weed out an Islamofascist is to ask muslims specific questions about their specific religious beliefs. If the process can work at all (which I don't agree it can anyway), then it should work without having to religiously discriminate - just subject everyone, regardless of religion, to the same set of questions that are based on the same universal set of freedom/democracy values.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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BigOl64

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #33 - May 16^th, 2018 at 10:56am

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:16pm:

If Indonesia is the biggest Muslim nation. then Pakistan , India the next biggest Muslim population then the millions of Chinese Muslims, and all the millions of westerners that r Muslim, umm what’s a Muslim look like ?

What they look like is irrelevant, it is what they think and do that matters, and it does matter

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BigOl64

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #34 - May 16^th, 2018 at 10:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:27pm:

See, that's how you do it FD.

Don't pussy foot around with BS wishy washy western liberals while you attempt to advocate religious discrimination - just be honest and say you are very happy trampling all over our values if it makes us safer.

The Australian government has been doing that for years to one group or another, it is about time you lot got a taste of it.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #35 - May 16^th, 2018 at 12:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 10:33am:

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:19pm:

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 10:25am:

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 7:52pm:

Every potential immigrant is screened

They are not all screened with the "are you a freedom-hating muslim" test. Only people who "appear" to be be muslim are. Thats religious discrimination FD.

I actually can't think of a way that any practicing muslim could get through under the sort of test FD would come up with:

officer: muslim - do you agree it is appropriate to slaughter innocent unarmed jews who only want freedom?
muslim: no sir
officer: but you do believe that Muhammad is the best of men, and the best example to follow right??
muslim: well yes...
officer: GUILTY!!

Are you saying that all Muslims are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy? Is that why it discriminates against Muslims?

No, but you've been saying it for years. Actual practicing muslims that is, not 'muslim in name only' muslims.

Can you honestly conceive of an "Islamofascist" test that would let in any devout muslim? Obviously I could because I don't share you Islamophobic views, but I can't see how you could.

Would you support such a test as you would come up with, or would it still discriminate against Muslims?

I've made it abundantly clear what I would support FD.

First and foremost I wouldn't as a first step go hunting for people who "appear muslim" so that I can give them a specific Islamofascist test (regardless of how 'fair' the actual test was) - as you propose. If I was to do any 'test' along the lines of our values, I would come up with a set of universal values, and ask everyone, regardless of race,creed or colour, the same set of questions. I won't advocate a process that involves firstly looking around at how people dress or their skin colour in order to determine what particular brand of anti-freedom/democracy ideology they might be susceptible to. I don't accept that the only way to weed out an Islamofascist is to ask muslims specific questions about their specific religious beliefs. If the process can work at all (which I don't agree it can anyway), then it should work without having to religiously discriminate - just subject everyone, regardless of religion, to the same set of questions that are based on the same universal set of freedom/democracy values.

Is there anything I have actually said that you disagree with? What is it about freedom and democracy that you do not consider universal?

Would you make atheists answer all the questions about imposing their religion on other people?

If you are only allowed to ask one set of questions, and everyone gets the same ones, wouldn't that just facilitate cheating and platitudes?

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #36 - May 16^th, 2018 at 1:11pm

If the genuinely 'moderate Muslims' of Australia are who they say they are ~ then WHY have they not been very vocal and very visible on our television news services screaming blue murder that the Turnbull government has been allowing our own home-grown ISIS admirers to return home and resume their normal life-style as neighbours in our suburbs?

Not a peep out of them.

No Keysar Trad.
No Ibrahim Abu Mohamed
No Dr Rateb Jneid

These returnees are the very ones who give the Muslim community a bad name and is partly why a massive 48% polled Australians want any further Muslim immigration to be closed down.

'Moderates' ~ my arse!

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #37 - May 16^th, 2018 at 3:37pm

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:05pm:

Is there anything I have actually said that you disagree with? What is it about freedom and democracy that you do not consider universal?

Yes, the whole 'going after muslim-looking people to give them a muslim-specific test' thing.

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:05pm:

Would you make atheists answer all the questions about imposing their religion on other people?

You don't know they are atheists, because you don't go looking for 'atheist labels' on people before you interview them. Thats the point. If the process is to work, it can only work if there are no preconceived notions made about the candidate that may prejudice the interview.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #38 - May 16^th, 2018 at 3:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 3:37pm:

Thats the point. If the process is to work, it can only work if there are no preconceived notions made about the candidate that may prejudice the interview.

'Preconceived' - or 'educated' through years of paying attention to the news services and how Muslim mischief in connection with crime and religious violence has forged the stereotype in the public's mind?

Don't blame the messenger. We need to maintain the freedom of the press, such as it is.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #39 - May 16^th, 2018 at 4:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 3:37pm:

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:05pm:

Is there anything I have actually said that you disagree with? What is it about freedom and democracy that you do not consider universal?

Yes, the whole 'going after muslim-looking people to give them a muslim-specific test' thing.

My apologies. I meant to things, is there anything I have actually said that you disagree with?

Quote:

You don't know they are atheists, because you don't go looking for 'atheist labels' on people before you interview them. Thats the point. If the process is to work, it can only work if there are no preconceived notions made about the candidate that may prejudice the interview.

So you are proposing an interview process that completely ignores all details about the person being interviewed, including the answers given to earlier questions?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #40 - May 16^th, 2018 at 4:28pm

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:03pm:

My apologies. I meant to things, is there anything I have actually said that you disagree with?

as I said, the whole 'going after muslim-looking people to give them a muslim-specific test' thing, as in what you actually said...

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2016 at 7:01pm:

I would start with open ended questions, for example, if they appear to be Muslim: do you support shariah law... tell me about it, would you take the opportunity to restrict voting rights to Muslims only if given the opportunity.

Thats something that you "actually said that I disagree with".

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:03pm:

So you are proposing an interview process that completely ignores all details about the person being interviewed, including the answers given to earlier questions?

So, you wouldn't ask questions about Islam to someone on the basis that they "appear to be muslim"?

And no, in any case you shouldn't even ask them their religion - as the answers will almost certainly prejudice the rest of the interview, and besides shouldn't be a relevant factor in determining whether or not they share our values. You can do that quite easily without even getting into their religious affiliation.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants Reply #41 - May 16^th, 2018 at 5:18pm ... and furthermore ... Oh, sorry, I thought I was in another thread. Please do carry on, FD & G.
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freediver

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #42 - May 16^th, 2018 at 5:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:28pm:

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:03pm:

My apologies. I meant to things, is there anything I have actually said that you disagree with?

as I said, the whole 'going after muslim-looking people to give them a muslim-specific test' thing, as in what you actually said...

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2016 at 7:01pm:

I would start with open ended questions, for example, if they appear to be Muslim: do you support shariah law... tell me about it, would you take the opportunity to restrict voting rights to Muslims only if given the opportunity.

Thats something that you "actually said that I disagree with".

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:03pm:

So you are proposing an interview process that completely ignores all details about the person being interviewed, including the answers given to earlier questions?

So, you wouldn't ask questions about Islam to someone on the basis that they "appear to be muslim"?

And no, in any case you shouldn't even ask them their religion - as the answers will almost certainly prejudice the rest of the interview, and besides shouldn't be a relevant factor in determining whether or not they share our values. You can do that quite easily without even getting into their religious affiliation.

Can you give some examples of how you gauge the support a Muslim has for Shariah law without reference to Islam or Shariah law?

Also, suppose you are doing the interview and the guy speaks with a German accent and has a swastika tattoed on his forehead. What sort of questions would you ask?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #43 - May 21^st, 2018 at 11:22am

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 5:27pm:

Can you give some examples of how you gauge the support a Muslim has for Shariah law without reference to Islam or Shariah law?

No, but again, why do you need to know specifically about shariah law? - surely you can think of questions that encompass the same values that aren't religion-specific that are just as useful? Instead of "do you agree that sharia-hudud laws that stipulate death for leaving Islam should be part of Australian law?" - why not simply "do you think that execution is ever an appropriate punishment for leaving a religion?" Whats the difference? And furthermore, you can use the same question for everyone.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims support Islamofascist immigrants
Reply #44 - May 21^st, 2018 at 6:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 21^st, 2018 at 11:22am:

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 5:27pm:

Can you give some examples of how you gauge the support a Muslim has for Shariah law without reference to Islam or Shariah law?

No, but again, why do you need to know specifically about shariah law? - surely you can think of questions that encompass the same values that aren't religion-specific that are just as useful? Instead of "do you agree that sharia-hudud laws that stipulate death for leaving Islam should be part of Australian law?" - why not simply "do you think that execution is ever an appropriate punishment for leaving a religion?" Whats the difference? And furthermore, you can use the same question for everyone.

It's called straight talking Gandalf.

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