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A little lesson in the development of societies (Read 2672 times)
freediver
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #30 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:39pm
 
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Early empires then developed into feudalism, which in some way eroded the central state but began to enshrine the idea of private property, complex agriculture, and further entrenched social classes.

The necessary prerequisite of industrialisation therefore is feudalism. If you look at Japan, they met this condition because they were feudal, as does China.


How is China feudal?

And why do you think feudalism (other than the absence of slavery) is necessary?

Quote:
According to Jared Diamond, cows or 'beasts of burden' were a requirement to develop complex agriculture.


Wrong.

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No beasts of burden ever existed on the Australian continent or on the American continent.


Yes they did. Even Diamond points this out.

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So, to those who say: "well, the aboriginals have had 200 odd years to change," think about this.

Homo sapiens dominated the earth around 10,000BC. The first complex cities developed in Sumeria around 5000 BC, with the first empire being the Akkadians under Sargon the Great in 2000s BC. The earliest actually prolonged empire was the Assyrians.

So, it took from 10,000BC to around 2500BC (7500 years) for human beings to develop from a hunter-gatherer society to the early stages of a complex society.

If you then talk about industrialisation which ocurred in the late 1700s, then it from 2500BC to 1700 AD (4000 years +) to progress from an early empire to an industrialised society (going through feudalism along the way).

So, expecting that the indigenous peoples progress from a hunter-gatherer existence to an industrialised society without meeting any of the prerequisites within 200 + years is complete folly, especially when it took the West more than 7000 years to get to this stage!!

So, let's try to get a little perspective, shall we?


If they are not genetically inferior, they should be able to change in a single generation, unless you think aboriginal parents are such a negative influence on their children...
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #31 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
How is China feudal?


China was feudalist before it became Communist.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
And why do you think feudalism (other than the absence of slavery) is necessary?


Because it just is.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
Wrong.


Care to clear up the confusion??

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
Yes they did. Even Diamond points this out.


Care to clear this up??

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
If they are not genetically inferior,


Are you smacking serious? That has a whiff of Nazism...
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #32 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:51pm
 
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And why do you think feudalism (other than the absence of slavery) is necessary?
Because it just is.


Correlation is not causation.

Quote:
Care to clear up the confusion??


There were plenty of large beasts. Many got hunted to extinction. Some still exist. Like llamas and bison. Furthermore, Diamond simply does not make the claim you attribute to him - that it is a pre-requisite. That would be absurd over-reach.

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Are you smacking serious? That has a whiff of nazism?


That's your emotional reaction. Now tell me what you think.
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #33 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:55pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:04pm:
Feudalism is a pre-requisite because of the advancements in agriculture which it creates. Also, it enshrined the idea of private property in the form of inclosures, etc.

I should mention also that Feudalism eventually died away in Europe and was replaced by Absolute Rule, thereby returning to centralisation and empires.


Private property existed in Europe long before it transitioned to feudalism. Same in Asia.

How does feudalism cause agricultural advances? For the most part it stifles them, by creating an oversupply of labour on the land and thus little incentive to reduce the labour cost of farming.
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #34 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
Correlation is not causation.


Name me a society which has industrialized without being a feudalist society??

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
There were plenty of large beasts. Many got hunted to extinction. Some still exist. Like llamas and bison. Furthermore, Diamond simply does not make the claim you attribute to him - that it is a pre-requisite. That would be absurd over-reach.


There were beasts but they weren't domesticated; cows were able to be domesticated which allowed them to be used in agriculture. Bison couldn't be domesticated.

Try again.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
That's your emotional reaction. Now tell me what you think.


I think that there is no scientific evidence to support your claim.

I must say, FD, I never believed until this very moment.... As it was with Valkie...

You are racist.

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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #35 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 8:55pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:04pm:
Feudalism is a pre-requisite because of the advancements in agriculture which it creates. Also, it enshrined the idea of private property in the form of inclosures, etc.

I should mention also that Feudalism eventually died away in Europe and was replaced by Absolute Rule, thereby returning to centralisation and empires.


Private property existed in Europe long before it transitioned to feudalism. Same in Asia.

How does feudalism cause agricultural advances? For the most part it stifles them, by creating an oversupply of labour on the land and thus little incentive to reduce the labour cost of farming.


There was a process known as inclosure. Do you know what it is? It helped to improve agricultural production.

"Enclosure is considered one of the causes of the British Agricultural Revolution. Enclosed land was under control of the farmer who was free to adopt better farming practices."

"Marx argued in Capital that enclosure played a constitutive role in the revolutionary transformation of feudalism into capitalism, both by transforming land from a means of subsistence into a means to realize profit on commodity markets (primarily wool in the English case), and by creating the conditions for the modern labour market by transforming small peasant proprietors and serfs into agricultural wage-labourers, whose opportunities to exit the market declined as the common lands were enclosed."
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #36 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:01pm
 
Quote:
Name me a society which has industrialized without being a feudalist society??


Australia.

Quote:
There were beasts but they weren't domesticated


It's hard to domesticate extinct animals. But the same thing that facilitated their extinction probably made them really good candidates for domestication.

Quote:
Bison couldn't be domesticated.


Why not?

Llama and alpaca were.

Quote:
I think that there is no scientific evidence to support your claim.


Are you complaining about our inability to conduct randomised experiments involving the taking of children from their birth parents?
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #37 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:03pm
 
Quote:
There was a process known as inclosure. Do you know what it is? It helped to improve agricultural production.

"Enclosure is considered one of the causes of the British Agricultural Revolution. Enclosed land was under control of the farmer who was free to adopt better farming practices."


Are you talking about private ownership of land? Obviously that is a pre-requisite, but has existed for a long time in lots of different places.
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #38 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
Australia.


Ah sorry?

Incorrect.

Australia is a transplant society. Australia didn't do anything; it was Britain.

Try again.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
It's hard to domesticate extinct animals. But the same thing that facilitated their extinction probably made them really good candidates for domestication.


The cow has not become extinct. When was the last time you ate beef?

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
Why not?

Llama and alpaca were.


No, they weren't.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
Are you complaining about our inability to conduct randomised experiments involving the taking of children from their birth parents?


No, I'm pointing out that scientific racism, as you seem to espousing, has been debunked time and time again, and has no basis in fact.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
Are you talking about private ownership of land? Obviously that is a pre-requisite, but has existed for a long time in lots of different places.


You asked me about an increase in agricultural production, so I answered it with enclosure.

Let me re state that feudalism is a prerequisite for capitalism.
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #39 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:14pm
 
Quote:
Australia is a transplant society. Australia didn't do anything; it was Britain.


The Roman Empire and Song Dynasty China.

Quote:
The cow has not become extinct. When was the last time you ate beef?


Correct. Only extinct species are extinct. I'm glad you are catching up.

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No, they weren't.


Yes they were.

Quote:
No, I'm pointing out that scientific racism, as you seem to espousing, has been debunked time and time again, and has no basis in fact.


I am not espousing scientific racism. I am asking you a question. If anything, you are sprouting racism.

Quote:
Let me re state that feudalism is a prerequisite for capitalism.


How so?
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #40 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:14pm:
The Roman Empire and Song Dynasty China.


??

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:14pm:
Correct. Only extinct species are extinct. I'm glad you are catching up.


So, you agree then that domesticated animals were fundamental in allowing societies to increase their agricultural productivity??

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:14pm:
Yes they were.


Which explains why the pre-Columbian societies weren't as complex as other civilizations, amongst other things. Llamas weren't as effective as cows.

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:14pm:
I am not espousing scientific racism. I am asking you a question. If anything, you are sprouting racism.


I do not believe that any race is genetically superior or inferior to any other.

Now, answer my question: do you believe in scientific racism???
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #41 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:35pm
 
Quote:
The Roman Empire and Song Dynasty China.


Both reached levels of human development that were not exceeded until well into the industrial revolution.

Quote:
So, you agree then that domesticated animals were fundamental in allowing societies to increase their agricultural productivity??


Sure, but your original claim is still wrong.

Quote:
Which explains why the pre-Columbian societies weren't as complex as other civilizations, amongst other things. Llamas weren't as effective as cows.


Again, you are changing your argument. Your original claim was wrong.

Quote:
I do not believe that any race is genetically superior or inferior to any other.


That's not what I was asking. Put aside your emotional response and read what I am saying.

If they are not genetically inferior, they should be able to change in a single generation, unless you think aboriginal parents are such a negative influence on their children...

Do you agree with this?
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #42 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:35pm:
Both reached levels of human development that were not exceeded until well into the industrial revolution.


So?

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:35pm:
Again, you are changing your argument. Your original claim was wrong.



I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to change my argument...

freediver wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:35pm:
That's not what I was asking. Put aside your emotional response and read what I am saying.

If they are not genetically inferior, they should be able to change in a single generation, unless you think aboriginal parents are such a negative influence on their children...

Do you agree with this?


I disagree.

The reason why I disagree is because people are more creatures of their environment than they are of nurture. Nurture cannot often overturn the effects of a person's environment; in rare exception it can, but on a societal scale it is even more difficult.

Now, do you believe in scientific racism??
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #43 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 9:48pm
 
Quote:
So?


So there goes another of your claims.

Quote:
I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to change my argument...


You can, but don't be surprised if people have no idea what you are trying to say.

Quote:
Now, do you believe in scientific racism??


Not really sure what it is. But probably not. Science is not a matter of faith.

Quote:
The reason why I disagree is because people are more creatures of their environment than they are of nurture. Nurture cannot often overturn the effects of a person's environment; in rare exception it can, but on a societal scale it is even more difficult.


Ah, the old nurture vs nurture debate.
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