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A little lesson in the development of societies (Read 2638 times)
TheFunPolice
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #15 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:18pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
When the love in hovels , don't work and neglect their kids  it's does sort of smack of laziness.


What if they're suffering from a mental illness but don't know it?

1 in 5 people in the whole country do. I can't defend people who give up. It's an excuse. Aborigines think it's their country and they'll do what they want. It's  an attitude that holds them back.

What about your attitude?

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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #16 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:21pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
When the love in hovels , don't work and neglect their kids  it's does sort of smack of laziness.


What if they're suffering from a mental illness but don't know it?

1 in 5 people in the whole country do. I can't defend people who give up. It's an excuse. Aborigines think it's their country and they'll do what they want. It's  an attitude that holds them back.


1 in 5 people in the country suffer from mental illnesses, most of whom KNOW they have it. And many of them have access to care. Most indigenous people don't.

Second, what if they don't know how to live life? If they've been raised in an indigenous community all their life, then it stands to reason that they may struggle to integrate into broader society.

You have to think of Indigenous people like a foreigner to another country. They need to go through the process of integrating into the society.

You'll never integrate or get proper services in a remote community. That goes for white people too. I know what it feels like to be out of wack with society. It's alienating and lonely so I sort of understand how they must feel. But you can't give up. They win then.
It's something aborigines need to work out for themselves.
 

True, but a little compassion toward an oppressed community never hurt anyone.

They went to war for this country and couldn't drink in the pub: that's simply not cricket!
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #17 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:23pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:52pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
When the love in hovels , don't work and neglect their kids  it's does sort of smack of laziness.


What if they're suffering from a mental illness but don't know it?

1 in 5 people in the whole country do. I can't defend people who give up. It's an excuse. Aborigines think it's their country and they'll do what they want. It's  an attitude that holds them back.


1 in 5 people in the country suffer from mental illnesses, most of whom KNOW they have it. And many of them have access to care. Most indigenous people don't.

Second, what if they don't know how to live life? If they've been raised in an indigenous community all their life, then it stands to reason that they may struggle to integrate into broader society.

You have to think of Indigenous people like a foreigner to another country. They need to go through the process of integrating into the society.

You'll never integrate or get proper services in a remote community. That goes for white people too. I know what it feels like to be out of wack with society. It's alienating and lonely so I sort of understand how they must feel. But you can't give up. They win then. It's something aborigines need to work out for themselves. 


Exactly, you got it! So, if it's alienating for you, you have to imagine how much worse it is for them. They don't have the social capital needed to succeed in society.

People like Valkie and Grappler have had the social capital to succeed, and have been properly socialized into Australian society. It's a completely different ball game when you can integrate into the society you've been raised into.
They can make it worse or better. It's in their hands. We all make our own choices at the end of the day.

True again, but still compassion is required. To not show any compassion toward a people that were slaughtered simply has no logic in my opinion.

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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #18 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm
 
My ancestors came out here in chains as slaves. You can only use your ancestors plight for so long. The government is too afraid to mess with the aborigines because they'll end up getting labelled as meddlers . The stolen generation politics has killed that of. It's up to them now. It's up to them to seek help. It's up to them to feed their kids. It's up to them to limit the drink. The reality is that nobody is going to help them unless they seek it.
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #19 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:32pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
My ancestors came out here in chains as slaves. You can only use your ancestors plight for so long. The government is too afraid to mess with the aborigines because they'll end up getting labelled as meddlers . The stolen generation politics has killed that of. It's up to them now. It's up to them to seek help. It's up to them to feed their kids. It's up to them to limit the drink. The reality is that nobody is going to help them unless they seek it.

Well, not all aborigines sit in the park and drink and neglect their kids...

Why are you so above them you talk down as if they're all the same?
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #20 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 5:37pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
My ancestors came out here in chains as slaves.


Come again? I thought slavery was abolished throughout the British Empire in the 1830s??
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #21 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:02pm
 
I don't think it's as hard to develop to suit an existing advanced society when it is all there laid out for you, than it is to spend 7000 years working out those details.

It's like asking someone to work out how to build a car from scratch, on the one hand - and asking them to buy a car, on the other.

Nothing hard about that.  Our Kaffirs have no problem with buying cars.... or processed food ... or using advanced health systems ..... or utilising our legal system .... they had no need to develop those since they were all free for the taking (not 'free' mney-wise but 'free' in the sense that they were components of civilisation already in place).... so what is so hard about working out that the best way to get on in that civilisation is to take onboard the rest of that civilisation?

Going to WAR with it and threatening its people with fire and destruction and dispossession and violence is only going to get you killed in the long term.
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #22 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:07pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:52pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
When the love in hovels , don't work and neglect their kids  it's does sort of smack of laziness.


What if they're suffering from a mental illness but don't know it?

1 in 5 people in the whole country do. I can't defend people who give up. It's an excuse. Aborigines think it's their country and they'll do what they want. It's  an attitude that holds them back.


1 in 5 people in the country suffer from mental illnesses, most of whom KNOW they have it. And many of them have access to care. Most indigenous people don't.

Second, what if they don't know how to live life? If they've been raised in an indigenous community all their life, then it stands to reason that they may struggle to integrate into broader society.

You have to think of Indigenous people like a foreigner to another country. They need to go through the process of integrating into the society.

You'll never integrate or get proper services in a remote community. That goes for white people too. I know what it feels like to be out of wack with society. It's alienating and lonely so I sort of understand how they must feel. But you can't give up. They win then. It's something aborigines need to work out for themselves. 


Exactly, you got it! So, if it's alienating for you, you have to imagine how much worse it is for them. They don't have the social capital needed to succeed in society.

People like Valkie and Grappler have had the social capital
will and dedication and courage
to succeed
despite an upbringing as dismal as most Aboriginals and worse than some
, and have been properly socialized into Australian society. It's a completely different ball game when you can integrate into the society you've been raised into.


Man .... you gotta be rich to even think that way.....  Roll Eyes
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #23 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:08pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
My ancestors came out here in chains as slaves. You can only use your ancestors plight for so long. The government is too afraid to mess with the aborigines because they'll end up getting labelled as meddlers . The stolen generation politics has killed that of. It's up to them now. It's up to them to seek help. It's up to them to feed their kids. It's up to them to limit the drink. The reality is that nobody is going to help them unless they seek it.

Well, not all aborigines sit in the park and drink and neglect their kids...

Why are you so above them you talk down as if they're all the same?


OH?  What percentage don't?
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Gnads
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #24 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:27pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:14pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:01pm:
After having debated with persons about the indigenous peoples, and noting their somewhat irrational beliefs about the causes of their plight, I thought that I would give a little lesson in the history of human development to those who are struggling to understand.

First, all advanced countries in the world today are fully-industrialised economies. What is industrialisation? It refers to the transition of the economy and society from a primarily agricultural one to an industrial one. Industralisation essentially allows societies to produce more than they consume.

But, in order to become an industrialised society, certain pre-conditions have to be met. First, we all started off as hunter-gatherers and then some societies began to develop agriculture. What is the importance of agriculture? It allowed for something know as a 'food surplus' - i.e. for the first time in human history, human beings were producing more food than they consumed. This resulted in development of sedentary societies, leading to cities. Cities mean more population, which means more organisation is required, and this is when hierarchies occur. More trades are developed, and as society becomes complex, writing is required to ensure that these societies function properly.

One of the key components of a civilisation is 'centralisation' - i.e. the establishment of a centralised authority that rules over a vast area. A centralised authority has the coercive institutions necessary to tax, spend and mobilise people for war. It also ensures the proper organisation of society. Early examples of a centralised civilisations were the Assyrians, Egyptians and Persians. The Greek were somewhat an exception to this rule, ruling in city-states instead (but would explain why they were eventually subjugated).

Early empires then developed into feudalism, which in some way eroded the central state but began to enshrine the idea of private property, complex agriculture, and further entrenched social classes.

The necessary prerequisite of industrialisation therefore is feudalism. If you look at Japan, they met this condition because they were feudal, as does China.

In the case of the indigenous peoples of Australia and of the Americas (with the exception of Mesoamerican and Incas), they retained their hunter-gatherer status and did not have the necessary geographical conditions to progress to complex agriculture.

According to Jared Diamond, cows or 'beasts of burden' were a requirement to develop complex agriculture. No beasts of burden ever existed on the Australian continent or on the American continent. Cows were unique to the Eurasian continent. The ability to have surplus agriculture leads to a complex civilization.

Now, I would like to make it clear that just because the indigenous peoples didn't progress further, it doesn't mean that they are inferior to us, nor does it justify mistreatment or disdain from us. Old theories about racial superiority were and continue to be wrong. The differences are geographical, not racial. In later stages its institutions that matter, but that is another thing.
--------------
So, to those who say: "well, the aboriginals have had 200 odd years to change," think about this.

Homo sapiens dominated the earth around 10,000BC. The first complex cities developed in Sumeria around 5000 BC, with the first empire being the Akkadians under Sargon the Great in 2000s BC. The earliest actually prolonged empire was the Assyrians.

So, it took from 10,000BC to around 2500BC (7500 years) for human beings to develop from a hunter-gatherer society to the early stages of a complex society.

If you then talk about industrialisation which ocurred in the late 1700s, then it from 2500BC to 1700 AD (4000 years +) to progress from an early empire to an industrialised society (going through feudalism along the way).

So, expecting that the indigenous peoples progress from a hunter-gatherer existence to an industiralised society without meeting any of the prerequisites within 200 + years is complete folly, especially when it took the West more than 8000 years to get to this stage!!

So, let's try to get a little perspective, shall we?

So we should be a little more patient with the aboriginal people?


Yes, we should.

The other thing we should do is not attribute their plight to 'laziness'.


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You're a trick .... you .... you.  Roll Eyes
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Gnads
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #25 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:30pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
When the love in hovels , don't work and neglect their kids  it's does sort of smack of laziness.


What if they're suffering from a mental illness but don't know it?


You just signed an admission form verifying your mental illness.

What a dick ..... another age old excuse trotted out ad infinitum.

Piss off Auggie Dawgie.
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Gnads
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #26 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:36pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:23pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:52pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
When the love in hovels , don't work and neglect their kids  it's does sort of smack of laziness.


What if they're suffering from a mental illness but don't know it?

1 in 5 people in the whole country do. I can't defend people who give up. It's an excuse. Aborigines think it's their country and they'll do what they want. It's  an attitude that holds them back.


1 in 5 people in the country suffer from mental illnesses, most of whom KNOW they have it. And many of them have access to care. Most indigenous people don't.

Second, what if they don't know how to live life? If they've been raised in an indigenous community all their life, then it stands to reason that they may struggle to integrate into broader society.

You have to think of Indigenous people like a foreigner to another country. They need to go through the process of integrating into the society.

You'll never integrate or get proper services in a remote community. That goes for white people too. I know what it feels like to be out of wack with society. It's alienating and lonely so I sort of understand how they must feel. But you can't give up. They win then. It's something aborigines need to work out for themselves. 


Exactly, you got it! So, if it's alienating for you, you have to imagine how much worse it is for them. They don't have the social capital needed to succeed in society.

People like Valkie and Grappler have had the social capital to succeed, and have been properly socialized into Australian society. It's a completely different ball game when you can integrate into the society you've been raised into.
They can make it worse or better. It's in their hands. We all make our own choices at the end of the day.

True again, but still compassion is required. To not show any compassion toward a people that were slaughtered simply has no logic in my opinion.



Poor opinion.

There is a difference between living in the past & not learning from things in the past.

Aboriginals have difficulty with the later .... and so do you.

No one alive today is witness to anyone being slaughtered.

The knowledge of the past is being used to justify the failings in the present.

The perpetuation of the guilt & victim industry.
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Gnads
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #27 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:38pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
My ancestors came out here in chains as slaves. You can only use your ancestors plight for so long. The government is too afraid to mess with the aborigines because they'll end up getting labelled as meddlers . The stolen generation politics has killed that of. It's up to them now. It's up to them to seek help. It's up to them to feed their kids. It's up to them to limit the drink. The reality is that nobody is going to help them unless they seek it.

Well, not all aborigines sit in the park and drink and neglect their kids...

Why are you so above them you talk down as if they're all the same?


You only know a certain demographic.

No one is above anyone except in your hand wringing mind.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Gnads
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #28 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:39pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 5:37pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
My ancestors came out here in chains as slaves.


Come again? I thought slavery was abolished throughout the British Empire in the 1830s??


Here's your sign ......
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Re: A little lesson in the development of societies
Reply #29 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 7:58pm
 
@Gnads.

Bugger off!
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