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What would be enough (Read 6366 times)
Auggie
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #90 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:50pm
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
They oppressed each other ..... the different tribal groups & clan groups.

They still do it today.

You're so full of guilt & BS.


Ok, Mr. Smartypants.

Explain how warring with each other in tribes make it easy for them to transition into an industrialized society??


They've had 232 years to give it a crack.  Roll Eyes


And how long did it take us?

More than 2500 years meeting all the conditions necessary to become an industralised society, not to mention two world wars, and the death of millions of people in process.

They're not even 5 percent of the way there.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #91 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:51pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:26pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:12pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:15am:
With a disease riddled, unhealthy, violent lifestyle, often cold and hungry, and with a lifespan of around twenty-three, same as the pyramid builders.  That's why it is still part of their 'culture' to breed early and often..... they don't expect to make it to see their children grown in their DNA.

You're dreaming.   Now tell me how the tribes that had an annual migration from the high country to the ocean, where it was warmer in Winter, had a continuous occupation of the land?  they were itinerants with no fixed abode.. no claim to Mt Warning .. sorry.. most of the Aboriginals who live in that area had ancestors who came from other areas  - mass DNA testing should show who was who.


Yeah but you're forgetting one thing. If everyone lives the same as you do and you don't know any different lifestyle, then you're more likely to be satisfied. And then, as soon as someone comes along and imposes a completely alien system that you're not prepared for, do you think you're likely to succeed?

If I suddenly took over Sydney with goons, and imposed a Chinese-style society over Sydney residents: i.e. everyone has to speak Chinese; Han Chinese people get priority in jobs and housing, which involved kicking people out of their homes; and take children from their families and put them in Communist Party re-education centres; and I completely recognised society along those lines, do you think that you would succeed?? You would probably be thrown in poverty and out on your arse in a moment. That's what happened to the Indigenous peoples.


You'd have a point if we were talking about roughly equal societies in competition... in the case of Aboriginals we are not, since their society and 'culture' was considerably lower on the scale than that which transplanted them.

Other than that - taking your example of Chinee over-taking Oz - we are talking more an emotion or subjective state rather than a physical one, since the overall well-being (without oppressios etc) would be roughly equal and possibly in some ways better.

In the case of the Aboriginals - over the course of 200+ years - it has gotten considerably better... walkabout with spear has now become LandCruiserabout with firearm... while clad in warm clothes and with sleeping bags etc and some canned food etc...


I'd also like to ask people what would they see as an alternative?

The natural progression for something like this is for initially things to go bad for one culture then steadily improve throughout their transition period.

Eventually in time, the two cultures will be indistinguishable.






The first thing to do is to recognise that they’ve had it tough by our hand and we owe them our resources and effort to ameliorate their condition to the best of our ability.

As to how long it will take? Who knows? It could take 10 years or 10,000 years.


I'd prefer to take the majority off drip feed and give the best and brightest a rolled gold first class education. I hate throwing good money after bad.

Govt funding for the top 100 private schools would be conditional on giving bright Aboriginal kids scholarships. Getting some more Aboriginal doctors, lawyers and business people out there would help bring them out of the funk they're in.


I don't disagree with these measures.

But, do you feel guilt for the actions of our predecessors? Because I do.


Why? & what good does that do?

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Gnads
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #92 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:50pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
They oppressed each other ..... the different tribal groups & clan groups.

They still do it today.

You're so full of guilt & BS.


Ok, Mr. Smartypants.

Explain how warring with each other in tribes make it easy for them to transition into an industrialized society??


They've had 232 years to give it a crack.  Roll Eyes


And how long did it take us?

More than 2500 years meeting all the conditions necessary to become an industralised society, not to mention two world wars, and the death of millions of people in process.

They're not even 5 percent of the way there.


What a load of clap trap.

As I said you're just an enabler of the guilt & victim industry.
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Auggie
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #93 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:26pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:12pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:15am:
With a disease riddled, unhealthy, violent lifestyle, often cold and hungry, and with a lifespan of around twenty-three, same as the pyramid builders.  That's why it is still part of their 'culture' to breed early and often..... they don't expect to make it to see their children grown in their DNA.

You're dreaming.   Now tell me how the tribes that had an annual migration from the high country to the ocean, where it was warmer in Winter, had a continuous occupation of the land?  they were itinerants with no fixed abode.. no claim to Mt Warning .. sorry.. most of the Aboriginals who live in that area had ancestors who came from other areas  - mass DNA testing should show who was who.


Yeah but you're forgetting one thing. If everyone lives the same as you do and you don't know any different lifestyle, then you're more likely to be satisfied. And then, as soon as someone comes along and imposes a completely alien system that you're not prepared for, do you think you're likely to succeed?

If I suddenly took over Sydney with goons, and imposed a Chinese-style society over Sydney residents: i.e. everyone has to speak Chinese; Han Chinese people get priority in jobs and housing, which involved kicking people out of their homes; and take children from their families and put them in Communist Party re-education centres; and I completely recognised society along those lines, do you think that you would succeed?? You would probably be thrown in poverty and out on your arse in a moment. That's what happened to the Indigenous peoples.


You'd have a point if we were talking about roughly equal societies in competition... in the case of Aboriginals we are not, since their society and 'culture' was considerably lower on the scale than that which transplanted them.

Other than that - taking your example of Chinee over-taking Oz - we are talking more an emotion or subjective state rather than a physical one, since the overall well-being (without oppressios etc) would be roughly equal and possibly in some ways better.

In the case of the Aboriginals - over the course of 200+ years - it has gotten considerably better... walkabout with spear has now become LandCruiserabout with firearm... while clad in warm clothes and with sleeping bags etc and some canned food etc...


I'd also like to ask people what would they see as an alternative?

The natural progression for something like this is for initially things to go bad for one culture then steadily improve throughout their transition period.

Eventually in time, the two cultures will be indistinguishable.






The first thing to do is to recognise that they’ve had it tough by our hand and we owe them our resources and effort to ameliorate their condition to the best of our ability.

As to how long it will take? Who knows? It could take 10 years or 10,000 years.


I'd prefer to take the majority off drip feed and give the best and brightest a rolled gold first class education. I hate throwing good money after bad.

Govt funding for the top 100 private schools would be conditional on giving bright Aboriginal kids scholarships. Getting some more Aboriginal doctors, lawyers and business people out there would help bring them out of the funk they're in.


I don't disagree with these measures.

But, do you feel guilt for the actions of our predecessors? Because I do.


Why? & what good does that do?



Because it shows that we as a society must have compassion and continue to further the amelioration of the plight of the indigenous peoples.

What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.
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Auggie
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #94 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:01pm
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
What a load of clap trap.


Really? So did we just 'grew' here, did we? Everything we have just appeared out of no where one day and that's it.

Actually I was mistaken, it took us much longer. Homo Sapiens became the dominant species around 10,000 BC, and the first empires weren't in existence until around 2500 to 1500 BC, so it took almost 10,000 years from hunter gatherer to complex civilisation. And that's with all the geographical conditions necessary to have an agricultural surplus, and to develop urban cities.

You really need to learn your history, mate.

Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
As I said you're just an enabler of the guilt & victim industry.


I would rather be an enabler of guild and victimisation than an enabler of hatred and bigotry.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #95 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:01pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:26pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:12pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:15am:
With a disease riddled, unhealthy, violent lifestyle, often cold and hungry, and with a lifespan of around twenty-three, same as the pyramid builders.  That's why it is still part of their 'culture' to breed early and often..... they don't expect to make it to see their children grown in their DNA.

You're dreaming.   Now tell me how the tribes that had an annual migration from the high country to the ocean, where it was warmer in Winter, had a continuous occupation of the land?  they were itinerants with no fixed abode.. no claim to Mt Warning .. sorry.. most of the Aboriginals who live in that area had ancestors who came from other areas  - mass DNA testing should show who was who.


Yeah but you're forgetting one thing. If everyone lives the same as you do and you don't know any different lifestyle, then you're more likely to be satisfied. And then, as soon as someone comes along and imposes a completely alien system that you're not prepared for, do you think you're likely to succeed?

If I suddenly took over Sydney with goons, and imposed a Chinese-style society over Sydney residents: i.e. everyone has to speak Chinese; Han Chinese people get priority in jobs and housing, which involved kicking people out of their homes; and take children from their families and put them in Communist Party re-education centres; and I completely recognised society along those lines, do you think that you would succeed?? You would probably be thrown in poverty and out on your arse in a moment. That's what happened to the Indigenous peoples.


You'd have a point if we were talking about roughly equal societies in competition... in the case of Aboriginals we are not, since their society and 'culture' was considerably lower on the scale than that which transplanted them.

Other than that - taking your example of Chinee over-taking Oz - we are talking more an emotion or subjective state rather than a physical one, since the overall well-being (without oppressios etc) would be roughly equal and possibly in some ways better.

In the case of the Aboriginals - over the course of 200+ years - it has gotten considerably better... walkabout with spear has now become LandCruiserabout with firearm... while clad in warm clothes and with sleeping bags etc and some canned food etc...


I'd also like to ask people what would they see as an alternative?

The natural progression for something like this is for initially things to go bad for one culture then steadily improve throughout their transition period.

Eventually in time, the two cultures will be indistinguishable.






The first thing to do is to recognise that they’ve had it tough by our hand and we owe them our resources and effort to ameliorate their condition to the best of our ability.

As to how long it will take? Who knows? It could take 10 years or 10,000 years.


I'd prefer to take the majority off drip feed and give the best and brightest a rolled gold first class education. I hate throwing good money after bad.

Govt funding for the top 100 private schools would be conditional on giving bright Aboriginal kids scholarships. Getting some more Aboriginal doctors, lawyers and business people out there would help bring them out of the funk they're in.


I don't disagree with these measures.

But, do you feel guilt for the actions of our predecessors? Because I do.


Why? & what good does that do?



Because it shows that we as a society must have compassion and continue to further the amelioration of the plight of the indigenous peoples.

What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.



Oh perrrlease ...... & $33billion dollars a year, free education & health care, affirmative action, land rights etc aren't doing that?

The OP is "what would be enough?".

Obviously you wouldn't have a feckin clue.  Roll Eyes
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Gordon
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #96 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:03pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:50pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
They oppressed each other ..... the different tribal groups & clan groups.

They still do it today.

You're so full of guilt & BS.


Ok, Mr. Smartypants.

Explain how warring with each other in tribes make it easy for them to transition into an industrialized society??


They've had 232 years to give it a crack.  Roll Eyes


And how long did it take us?

More than 2500 years meeting all the conditions necessary to become an industralised society, not to mention two world wars, and the death of millions of people in process.

They're not even 5 percent of the way there.


Actually this is interesting and I've mentioned something about this before.

Aboriginals suffered at the hands of the British and Australians, sure.

However, they've had a civilisation handed to them on a silver platter that took 2500 of slaughter to attain. It's almost like they were given access to a wormhole and have been propelled 10000 years from stone and to space age in a few hundred years.

They paid a very small cost to reach modernity compared to everyone else.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #97 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:03pm
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:01pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:26pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 12:12pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 11:15am:
With a disease riddled, unhealthy, violent lifestyle, often cold and hungry, and with a lifespan of around twenty-three, same as the pyramid builders.  That's why it is still part of their 'culture' to breed early and often..... they don't expect to make it to see their children grown in their DNA.

You're dreaming.   Now tell me how the tribes that had an annual migration from the high country to the ocean, where it was warmer in Winter, had a continuous occupation of the land?  they were itinerants with no fixed abode.. no claim to Mt Warning .. sorry.. most of the Aboriginals who live in that area had ancestors who came from other areas  - mass DNA testing should show who was who.


Yeah but you're forgetting one thing. If everyone lives the same as you do and you don't know any different lifestyle, then you're more likely to be satisfied. And then, as soon as someone comes along and imposes a completely alien system that you're not prepared for, do you think you're likely to succeed?

If I suddenly took over Sydney with goons, and imposed a Chinese-style society over Sydney residents: i.e. everyone has to speak Chinese; Han Chinese people get priority in jobs and housing, which involved kicking people out of their homes; and take children from their families and put them in Communist Party re-education centres; and I completely recognised society along those lines, do you think that you would succeed?? You would probably be thrown in poverty and out on your arse in a moment. That's what happened to the Indigenous peoples.


You'd have a point if we were talking about roughly equal societies in competition... in the case of Aboriginals we are not, since their society and 'culture' was considerably lower on the scale than that which transplanted them.

Other than that - taking your example of Chinee over-taking Oz - we are talking more an emotion or subjective state rather than a physical one, since the overall well-being (without oppressios etc) would be roughly equal and possibly in some ways better.

In the case of the Aboriginals - over the course of 200+ years - it has gotten considerably better... walkabout with spear has now become LandCruiserabout with firearm... while clad in warm clothes and with sleeping bags etc and some canned food etc...


I'd also like to ask people what would they see as an alternative?

The natural progression for something like this is for initially things to go bad for one culture then steadily improve throughout their transition period.

Eventually in time, the two cultures will be indistinguishable.






The first thing to do is to recognise that they’ve had it tough by our hand and we owe them our resources and effort to ameliorate their condition to the best of our ability.

As to how long it will take? Who knows? It could take 10 years or 10,000 years.


I'd prefer to take the majority off drip feed and give the best and brightest a rolled gold first class education. I hate throwing good money after bad.

Govt funding for the top 100 private schools would be conditional on giving bright Aboriginal kids scholarships. Getting some more Aboriginal doctors, lawyers and business people out there would help bring them out of the funk they're in.


I don't disagree with these measures.

But, do you feel guilt for the actions of our predecessors? Because I do.


Why? & what good does that do?



Because it shows that we as a society must have compassion and continue to further the amelioration of the plight of the indigenous peoples.

What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.



Oh perrrlease ...... & $33billion dollars a year, free education & health care, affirmative action, land rights etc aren't doing that?

The OP is "what would be enough?".

Obviously you wouldn't have a feckin clue.  Roll Eyes


Correct, because throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve it. These issues are more complex than you make them out to be.
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Auggie
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #98 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:04pm
 
Gordon wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:03pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:50pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
Gnads wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
They oppressed each other ..... the different tribal groups & clan groups.

They still do it today.

You're so full of guilt & BS.


Ok, Mr. Smartypants.

Explain how warring with each other in tribes make it easy for them to transition into an industrialized society??


They've had 232 years to give it a crack.  Roll Eyes


And how long did it take us?

More than 2500 years meeting all the conditions necessary to become an industralised society, not to mention two world wars, and the death of millions of people in process.

They're not even 5 percent of the way there.


Actually this is interesting and I've mentioned something about this before.

Aboriginals suffered at the hands of the British and Australians, sure.

However, they've had a civilisation handed to them on a silver platter that took 2500 of slaughter to attain. It's almost like they were given access to a wormhole and have been propelled 5000 (probably more) from stone and to space age in  a few hundred years.

They paid a very small cost to reach modernity compared to everyone else.


Doesn't matter, Gordie. It only works if the society to which it is given has the necessary conditions already in place.

The prerequisite of industralisation is feudalism. The indigenous peoples didn't meet that condition, so the access doesn't matter.

EDIT: you can't go from hunter-gatherer to industralisation straightaway, you have to go through stages first, otherwise it doesn't work.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #99 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:06pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.


It's known as genocide, a continuing policy designed to eliminate Australian Aboriginals.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #100 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:07pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:06pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.


It's known as genocide, a continuing policy designed to eliminate Australian Aboriginals.


Yes, I'm willing to accept that some policies were genocidal in nature.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #101 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:17pm
 
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:06pm:
[quote author=augcaesarustus link=1523434551/93#93 date=1524023696]What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.


It's known as genocide, a continuing policy designed to eliminate Australian Aboriginals.


Yes, I'm willing to accept that some policies were genocidal in nature. [/quote

So true

The Australian aboriginals certainly decimated and destroyed the original inhabitants through genocide.

KARMA IS A MEAN BITCH
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #102 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:19pm
 
I've always thought Ayre's Rock would make a good landing site for Christ's Second Coming.

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Re: What would be enough
Reply #103 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:23pm
 
Valkie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:17pm:
Auggie wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:06pm:
[quote author=augcaesarustus link=1523434551/93#93 date=1524023696]What we did to the indigenous peoples was shameful, both British and Australians. You can try to dress it up as a civilising mission, but the institutionalisation of racism and oppression was unacceptable.


It's known as genocide, a continuing policy designed to eliminate Australian Aboriginals.


Yes, I'm willing to accept that some policies were genocidal in nature. [/quote

So true

The Australian aboriginals certainly decimated and destroyed the original inhabitants through genocide.

KARMA IS A MEAN BITCH


Funny you feel so strongly about it. Were your ancestors those who preceded the indigenous peoples? You seem to feel a dare-I-say 'residual' anger about it...

Valkie, you're a bloody racist. You're a disgrace to this country. I can only hope that over time this country becomes inhabited less and less by people like you.

You're a dying breed, and thank God for that. History is against you.
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Re: What would be enough
Reply #104 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:25pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:19pm:
I've always thought Ayre's Rock would make a good landing site for Christ's Second Coming.



Who knows? We might find some golden plates buried in the Outback, written in an obscure dialect of Ancient Egyptian??
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