Australian Politics Forum - If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire

Auggie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #105 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:45pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:24pm:

Is it safe for Aussie to respond yet?

Quote:

They are recognised by law. That is not the same thing as how you got them. Which is why you are struggling so hard to disagree with me.

Rights don't arise from a piece of paper Aussie. They arise from your willingness to defend them.

Why (other than because they think it's a good idea, duh) do you think institutions like the rule of law, democracy, personal liberty etc were adopted in so many former British colonies Aussie?

We have NO inalienable rights as that term is understood in an American context. Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

And where did the American context come from? That's right: the British.

Second, I suggest you read the US Supreme Court case 'Dred Scott vs. Sanford' and tell me if the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the Supreme Court were enough to prevent Scott's rights from being taken away.

The interesting part is that, if you look at both the American and British traditions, the latter has had a much better record in protecting the rights and liberties of its peoples than the former, despite the former having an enshrined Bill of Rights and a Court of Review. For e.g. the British were able to abolish slavery with an Act of Parliament, whereas the Supreme Court and the Constitution weren't able to protect the rights of blacks, even after slavery.

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« Last Edit: Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:55pm by Auggie »

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rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire Reply #106 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:46pm Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm: Laws can be changed at the whim of Government. Lol. I dont think you understand our legal system very well.
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Aussie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #107 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:52pm

rhino wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:46pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

Lol. I dont think you understand our legal system very well.

Which part of this statement is incorrect Guru?

Quote:

Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

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Aussie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #108 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:55pm

Auggie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:24pm:

Is it safe for Aussie to respond yet?

Quote:

They are recognised by law. That is not the same thing as how you got them. Which is why you are struggling so hard to disagree with me.

Rights don't arise from a piece of paper Aussie. They arise from your willingness to defend them.

Why (other than because they think it's a good idea, duh) do you think institutions like the rule of law, democracy, personal liberty etc were adopted in so many former British colonies Aussie?

We have NO inalienable rights as that term is understood in an American context. Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

And where did the American context come from? That's right: the British.

Second, I suggest you read the US Supreme Court case 'Dred Scott vs. Sanford' and tell me if the Bill of Rights if the Constitution and the Supreme Court were enough to prevent Scott's rights from being taken away.

The interesting part is that, if you look at both the American and British traditions, the latter has had a much better record in protecting the rights and liberties of its peoples than the former, despite the former having an enshrined Bill of Rights and a Court of Review. For e.g. the British were able to abolish slavery with an Act of Parliament, whereas the Americans had to have a Civil War to abolish it.

Seems to be entirely discredited.

Link.

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Auggie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #109 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:57pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:55pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:24pm:

Is it safe for Aussie to respond yet?

Quote:

They are recognised by law. That is not the same thing as how you got them. Which is why you are struggling so hard to disagree with me.

Rights don't arise from a piece of paper Aussie. They arise from your willingness to defend them.

Why (other than because they think it's a good idea, duh) do you think institutions like the rule of law, democracy, personal liberty etc were adopted in so many former British colonies Aussie?

We have NO inalienable rights as that term is understood in an American context. Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

And where did the American context come from? That's right: the British.

Second, I suggest you read the US Supreme Court case 'Dred Scott vs. Sanford' and tell me if the Bill of Rights if the Constitution and the Supreme Court were enough to prevent Scott's rights from being taken away.

The interesting part is that, if you look at both the American and British traditions, the latter has had a much better record in protecting the rights and liberties of its peoples than the former, despite the former having an enshrined Bill of Rights and a Court of Review. For e.g. the British were able to abolish slavery with an Act of Parliament, whereas the Americans had to have a Civil War to abolish it.

Seems to be entirely discredited.

Link.

What do you mean by this statement?

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 37678 Gender:	Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire Reply #110 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 1:02pm Read the Link in my Post.
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Auggie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #111 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 1:15pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 1:02pm:

Read the Link in my Post.

Ah I understand now.

Well, of course the decision is NOW condemned; it's the 21st century!

My point is that even the Bill of Rights and the Supreme Court (which is supposed to be a protector of rights) didn't even prevent Dred Scott from having his rights taken away from him.

Even if you compare it to the time and context, the British still did a better job of protecting the rights and liberties of its people than the Americans.

Conclusion: the American model has been, and is inferior to the British model.

Second, and just to go on another rant: there was a story heard once about a slave who escaped America and went to Canada. When he was there he stated that he couldn't believe that in the 'Queen's Dominions' (which was supposed to be the land of tyranny, according to American mythology) granted him more rights and liberties than a self-declared Republic.

Which leads to another conclusion: history has shown:

1) monarchies (although symbolically a tyrannical and unequal system) have produced more harmonious and equal societies than Republics.

2) the lack of a Bill of Rights and a court of arbitration has actually resulted in institutions which have protected the rights and liberties of its peoples more than the opposite.

Finally, this means the following: many pre-conceived notions about the monarchy and the British system are wrong, and paint a completely opposite picture to such notions.

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freediver

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #112 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:33pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:24pm:

Is it safe for Aussie to respond yet?

Quote:

They are recognised by law. That is not the same thing as how you got them. Which is why you are struggling so hard to disagree with me.

Rights don't arise from a piece of paper Aussie. They arise from your willingness to defend them.

Why (other than because they think it's a good idea, duh) do you think institutions like the rule of law, democracy, personal liberty etc were adopted in so many former British colonies Aussie?

We have NO inalienable rights as that term is understood in an American context. Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

So what? We still have rights. Their continuation still depends on us, not a piece of paper.

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Aussie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #113 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:44pm

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:33pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:24pm:

Is it safe for Aussie to respond yet?

Quote:

They are recognised by law. That is not the same thing as how you got them. Which is why you are struggling so hard to disagree with me.

Rights don't arise from a piece of paper Aussie. They arise from your willingness to defend them.

Why (other than because they think it's a good idea, duh) do you think institutions like the rule of law, democracy, personal liberty etc were adopted in so many former British colonies Aussie?

We have NO inalienable rights as that term is understood in an American context. Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

So what? We still have rights. Their continuation still depends on us, not a piece of paper.

No. Their existence and continuation depends on Politicians.

'We' (ie mere citizens) can create no rights. Courts can (where there is a legislative vacuum) but their decisions can always be struck down by Parliament/Politicians.

Do we have an enforceable right to privacy in Australia, Effendi, and right not to be stalked, for example? Do we have remedies against those who breach privacy and stalk?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #114 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:12pm

rhino wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:46pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

Lol. I dont think you understand our legal system very well.

When the instruments of Law themselves operate outside the Rule Of Law - what option is available for the ordinary person in society?

I rather thought we had an illegal system, than a legal one.... since the rules are unashamedly self-serving, and the rule of law has been used to shore up the rule of some who handle it on behalf of the populace.

If this were not so - the police and magistrates would be able to walk down the streets with heads high, rather than having to hide behind walls to ensure their safety.

The 'rule of law' here for over two centuries was 'cops and robbers' - with the cops being able to say anything and have it accepted without question by a 'court'.

Only slowly is that beginning to change..... with better police and slowly dawning realisation on the part of magistrates that they are NOT the power in the land but are servants of the law, and nor are the police the aristocracy.

A wonderful example is where a police officer offers an opinion - unfortunately for the sycophantic and bum-kissing style of 'magistrate' used to rubber-stamping police verbal testimony - the High Court has ruled that an expert opinion must be supported by hard facts, and cannot stand alone.

Change is slow - one of the things that push people to open revolt is the perception that meaningful change is too slow....... watch this space.... politicians beware.... beyond here be dragons... Cool

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Auggie

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #115 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:18pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:12pm:

rhino wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:46pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

Laws can be changed at the whim of Government.

Lol. I dont think you understand our legal system very well.

When the instruments of Law themselves operate outside the Rule Of Law - what option is available for the ordinary person in society?

I rather thought we had an illegal system, than a legal one.... since the rules are unashamedly self-serving, and the rule of law has been used to shore up the rule of some who handle it on behalf of the populace.

If this were not so - the police and magistrates would be able to walk down the streets with heads high, rather than having to hide behind walls to ensure their safety.

The 'rule of law' here for over two centuries was 'cops and robbers' - with the cops being able to say anything and have it accepted without question by a 'court'.

Only slowly is that beginning to change..... with better police and slowly dawning realisation on the part of magistrates that they are NOT the power in the land but are servants of the law, and nor are the police the aristocracy.

A wonderful example is where a police officer offers an opinion - unfortunately for the sycophantic and bum-kissing style of 'magistrate' used to rubber-stamping police verbal testimony - the High Court has ruled that an expert opinion must be supported by hard facts, and cannot stand alone.

Change is slow - one of the things that push people to open revolt is the perception that meaningful change is too slow....... watch this space.... politicians beware.... beyond here be dragons... Cool

The important fact is that the institutions exist to make that possible. Common law is adaptable and convention (unspoken or socially understood rules) are often more powerful than statute. E.g. much of our political system is based on convention.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire Reply #116 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:44pm: Do we have remedies against those who breach privacy and stalk? Last I checked: stalking was a crime.
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 37678 Gender:	Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire Reply #117 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:22pm Auggie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm: Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:44pm: Do we have remedies against those who breach privacy and stalk? Last I checked: stalking was a crime. Indeed. How about under common law?
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Auggie

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The Bull Moose

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Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire
Reply #118 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:37pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:44pm:

Do we have remedies against those who breach privacy and stalk?

Last I checked: stalking was a crime.

Indeed. How about under common law?

Common law is different from criminal law. I thought you knew that?

Huh

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 37678 Gender:	Re: If you live in freedom, thank the British Empire Reply #119 - Apr 17^th, 2018 at 3:41pm Of course I know it. How about an answer to my question? Is a right not to be stalked inalienable?
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