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Muslims lie about the Quran (Read 7400 times)
Mattyfisk
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #45 - Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:33pm
 
moses wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:18pm:
As sure as the devil sleeps in your left nostril, muhammad had love in his heart when he came up with this conciliatory gem in chapter 8:

qur'an 8.67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made a great slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.


Which, as G explained for us, means not to take prisoners of war unless a war is actually going on.

What did you think it meant?
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freediver
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #46 - Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:40pm
 
Is POW the latest Muslim euphemism for sex slaves?
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #47 - Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:49pm
 
Quote:
What did you think it meant?


Exactly what it says, muhammad was justifying his excessive bloodlust.

It's funny how the qur'an always comes up with vindications  for atrocities perpetrated by muhammad.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #48 - Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:40pm:
Is POW the latest Muslim euphemism for sex slaves?


Hard to say, FD. Have I interpreted this Hebrew passage correctly?

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
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Frank
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #49 - Mar 17th, 2018 at 9:06pm
 
What are Muslims honest about?
Submission to Islam. That's  all that matters. Everything else comes AFTER that.

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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #50 - Mar 21st, 2018 at 3:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 9:53am:
In the verses leading up to 39, their only 'crime' is to spend their money to hinder men from the path to Allah, whistling and clapping hands while praying in the Kaaba, and generally disbelieving. In verse 39 itself, it simply does not make sense to instruct Muslims to defend freedom of religion in the same sentence as instructing them to use violence to impose it.


Firstly, mere disbelief is not the only 'crime' mentioned in the verses leading up to 39. Read verse 30 - a direct reference to the forceful eviction of Muhammad and his people from their homes. Secondly, freedom of religion is specifically referred to:

But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? (8:34)

Are you going to attempt some mental gymnastics to argue that preventing people from their place of worship is somehow not about freedom of religion?

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 9:53am:
Don't you think it is a bit misleading to suggest that Muhammad intended the modern western meaning of oppression? He never communicated such a concept, in the Quran or elsewhere


It is a majority of the translations who insert the words "oppression" and "persecution", not me. So unless you are going construct a coherent argument for why these words are really by-words for "disbelief", then I apply the common sense rule to assume it means what it actually says.  Also, 'western meaning of oppression' are mentioned several times in the Quran - eg being booted from your home and prevented from worshipping.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #51 - Mar 21st, 2018 at 3:31pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 10:20am:
According to Ibn Kathir, Quran 33:09 and 33:10 is also related to the Banu Qurayza.[25][/i]


They probably are. But none of the verses make any reference to the mass beheading of an entire male population. It merely states that some were executed for aiding the enemy - which stands to reason, and consistent with my argument that only the ringleaders were killed.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #52 - Mar 21st, 2018 at 6:29pm
 
Quote:
Firstly, mere disbelief is not the only 'crime' mentioned in the verses leading up to 39. Read verse 30 - a direct reference to the forceful eviction of Muhammad and his people from their homes. Secondly, freedom of religion is specifically referred to:

But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? (8:34)

Are you going to attempt some mental gymnastics to argue that preventing people from their place of worship is somehow not about freedom of religion?


Can you explain what the verse is saying?

Quote:
It is a majority of the translations who insert the words "oppression" and "persecution", not me.


Yes Gandalf, but I'm sure this does not preclude you from giving a straight answer.

Don't you think it is a bit misleading to suggest that Muhammad intended the modern western meaning of oppression? He never communicated such a concept, in the Quran or elsewhere

Quote:
So unless you are going construct a coherent argument for why these words are really by-words for "disbelief", then I apply the common sense rule to assume it means what it actually says.


What does it "actually say"?

Quote:
Also, 'western meaning of oppression' are mentioned several times in the Quran - eg being booted from your home and prevented from worshipping.


It mentions events that would count as oppression to modern people, but usually as a justification for more oppression, never as a communication of any concept of oppression or liberty. If you are going to argue that Muhammad actually communicated this concept, you will have to do more than point him out complaining about getting booted out of Mecca. Remember, this concept would have been largely alien to the people at the time. Oppression, in it's various forms, would have been taken for granted as a fact of life. So if Muhammad actually intended to use it as a justification for violence, he would have to explain what it actually means. But instead, all we have is him using a word that has a variety of meanings and is also translated as disbelief. Claiming victimhood is not the same thing as 'mentioning' a modern western concept of oppression, and you are lying about the Quran to suggest this is what it is doing.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 21st, 2018 at 3:31pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 10:20am:
According to Ibn Kathir, Quran 33:09 and 33:10 is also related to the Banu Qurayza.[25][/i]


They probably are. But none of the verses make any reference to the mass beheading of an entire male population. It merely states that some were executed for aiding the enemy - which stands to reason, and consistent with my argument that only the ringleaders were killed.


Do you see no contradiction here Gandalf?

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 10:20am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2016 at 6:51pm:
Now as we know, the mass execution almost certainly didn't happen - the reality was that a few of the leaders who were responsible for the treachery were executed, and the rest were freed - as stated in the Quran.


Gandalf, you never did get round to citing the verse from the Quran you are referring to here.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16th, 2018 at 7:09pm:
Sure. The alleged banu qurayza massacre is not referenced in the Quran, and therefore not part of Islamic morals. Nor is any concept of mindless collective treacherous jews.


Are both of these statements true Gandalf?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza#Quran

According to the 14th century commentator Ibn Kathir, the event is referenced in the Quran:

And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.[Quran 33:26]

Ibn Kathir's commentary of the verse in his Tafsir is as follows:

Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.[2]

[Ibn Kathir, on Quran 33:26]

According to Ibn Kathir, Quran 33:09 and 33:10 is also related to the Banu Qurayza.[25]

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Mattyfisk
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #53 - Mar 21st, 2018 at 9:03pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:50pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2018 at 5:40pm:
Is POW the latest Muslim euphemism for sex slaves?


Hard to say, FD. Have I interpreted this Hebrew passage correctly?

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


FD? Can you interpret this one for us?
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #54 - Mar 22nd, 2018 at 9:42am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 21st, 2018 at 6:29pm:
It mentions events that would count as oppression to modern people, but usually as a justification for more oppression, never as a communication of any concept of oppression or liberty.


What does that mean FD? "It mentions events that would count as oppression" - but can never be counted as a "communication of any concept of oppression"? You are contradicting yourself. Even if he cynically uses the excuse of oppression to justify more oppression - he is clearly still "communicating" a concept of oppression - just without sincerity, or with the wrong motives in mind.

What you are doing is constructing an unfalsifiable argument based on flawed circular logic - by using the fact that references to oppression are associated with justification for violence - it can never be a "communication of any concept of oppression" - because it advocates violence in response. Its a false dichotomy.

freediver wrote on Mar 21st, 2018 at 6:29pm:
you will have to do more than point him out complaining about getting booted out of Mecca.


Nope, complaining about getting booted out of your own home is the perfect "communication of a concept of oppression". You don't have to believe he is being sincere or doesn't have sinister ulterior motives for that to remain so.

freediver wrote on Mar 21st, 2018 at 6:29pm:
Claiming victimhood is not the same thing as 'mentioning' a modern western concept of oppression


Of course it is. You are making no sense at all.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #55 - Mar 22nd, 2018 at 7:21pm
 
Quote:
What does that mean FD? "It mentions events that would count as oppression" - but can never be counted as a "communication of any concept of oppression"? You are contradicting yourself.


No I am not Gandalf. Consider these two statements:

He punched me in the face, so I punched him back.

He punched me in the face, which is an example of oppression.


Do you get the idea?

Quote:
Even if he cynically uses the excuse of oppression to justify more oppression


This is the Quran we are talking about.

Quote:
he is clearly still "communicating" a concept of oppression


No he isn't. It is entirely a projection on your part.

Quote:
What you are doing is constructing an unfalsifiable argument based on flawed circular logic - by using the fact that references to oppression


They are not references to oppression Gandalf. They are descriptions of events that would count as oppression.

Quote:
Nope, complaining about getting booted out of your own home is the perfect "communication of a concept of oppression".


No it isn't. It is a complaint. It is no more communicating a concept of oppression than complaining about a dictator is communicating a concept of democracy. If you never explain what oppression is, or what democracy or dictatorship is, then you are not communicating any concepts. You are just complaining.

Quote:
You don't have to believe he is being sincere


I do not believe he is saying what you claim he says.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #56 - Mar 23rd, 2018 at 9:40am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2018 at 7:21pm:
He punched me in the face, so I punched him back.

He punched me in the face, which is an example of oppression.

Do you get the idea?


No FD, I don't "get" the idea that only one of those examples is an example of oppression. The first is tantamount to saying "I punched him because he was oppressing me" (ie I fought back in self defense). It is oppression in both cases completely irrespective of what happens next. You are literally the first person to introduce this bizarre notion that oppression somehow magically stops being oppression - as soon as the oppressed starts fighting back.

freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2018 at 7:21pm:
They are not references to oppression Gandalf. They are descriptions of events that would count as oppression.


Ah, and next you're going to tell me that describing such events that would count as oppression is not "communicating a concept of oppression" - right?

freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2018 at 7:21pm:
No it isn't. It is a complaint.


Cool. I'll sure to remember that the next time some minority gets ethnically cleansed and they complain about it. I'll just tell them they are definitely not "communicating a concept of oppression" - they are merely lodging a complaint. I'm sure they'll appreciate the difference.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #57 - Mar 23rd, 2018 at 9:51am
 
Well, those Rohinga should lodge a complaint with the Burmese government.

Stop killing us, so unfair.

Muslim victim mentality, innit.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #58 - Mar 23rd, 2018 at 2:29pm
 
lodge a complaint?

so should the Chistians in the M.E.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #59 - Mar 24th, 2018 at 9:58am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 21st, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Firstly, mere disbelief is not the only 'crime' mentioned in the verses leading up to 39. Read verse 30 - a direct reference to the forceful eviction of Muhammad and his people from their homes. Secondly, freedom of religion is specifically referred to:

But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? (8:34)

Are you going to attempt some mental gymnastics to argue that preventing people from their place of worship is somehow not about freedom of religion?


Can you explain what the verse is saying?

Quote:
No FD, I don't "get" the idea that only one of those examples is an example of oppression.


One of them is communicating a concept of oppression, in a very simplistic way of course. The other is not. Not sure what is so hard to get about it.

Quote:
The first is tantamount to saying "I punched him because he was oppressing me"


No it isn't. Is this your strategy for reading things into the Quran that are not actually there? Every time something bad is mentioned, this is Muhammad communicating a modern, western concept of political oppression and liberty?

Quote:
It is oppression in both cases completely irrespective of what happens next.


Do try to keep up Gandalf. We are not discussing whether it is oppression, but whether it is communicating the concept. You claim the Quran uses oppression as a justification for slaughtering the infidel. You cannot demonstrate any explanation of what oppression means, but expect us to believe they understood the modern western concept. Do you think Muhammad intended Muslims to read whatever they want into it, so Muslims who want to slaughter the infidel because of oppression can do so, and those who want to slaughter the infidel because they refuse to convert to Islam can just as easily find justification in the same verse?

Quote:
Cool. I'll sure to remember that the next time some minority gets ethnically cleansed and they complain about it.


Yes Gandalf. If they are complaining about it, they are complaining about it. Do Muslims generally have a problem with calling a spade a spade?
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