Quote:Firstly, mere disbelief is not the only 'crime' mentioned in the verses leading up to 39. Read verse 30 - a direct reference to the forceful eviction of Muhammad and his people from their homes. Secondly, freedom of religion is specifically referred to:
But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? (8:34)
Are you going to attempt some mental gymnastics to argue that preventing people from their place of worship is somehow not about freedom of religion?
Can you explain what the verse is saying?
Quote:It is a majority of the translations who insert the words "oppression" and "persecution", not me.
Yes Gandalf, but I'm sure this does not preclude you from giving a straight answer.
Don't you think it is a bit misleading to suggest that Muhammad intended the modern western meaning of oppression? He never communicated such a concept, in the Quran or elsewhere
Quote:So unless you are going construct a coherent argument for why these words are really by-words for "disbelief", then I apply the common sense rule to assume it means what it actually says.
What does it "actually say"?
Quote:Also, 'western meaning of oppression' are mentioned several times in the Quran - eg being booted from your home and prevented from worshipping.
It mentions events that would count as oppression to modern people, but usually as a justification for more oppression, never as a communication of any concept of oppression or liberty. If you are going to argue that Muhammad actually communicated this concept, you will have to do more than point him out complaining about getting booted out of Mecca. Remember, this concept would have been largely alien to the people at the time. Oppression, in it's various forms, would have been taken for granted as a fact of life. So if Muhammad actually intended to use it as a justification for violence, he would have to explain what it actually means. But instead, all we have is him using a word that has a variety of meanings and is also translated as disbelief. Claiming victimhood is not the same thing as 'mentioning' a modern western concept of oppression, and you are lying about the Quran to suggest this is what it is doing.
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 21
st, 2018 at 3:31pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 17
th, 2018 at 10:20am:
According to Ibn Kathir, Quran 33:09 and 33:10 is also related to the Banu Qurayza.[25][/i]
They probably are. But none of the verses make any reference to the mass beheading of an entire male population. It merely states that some were executed for aiding the enemy - which stands to reason, and consistent with my argument that only the ringleaders were killed.
Do you see no contradiction here Gandalf?
freediver wrote on Mar 17
th, 2018 at 10:20am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16
th, 2016 at 6:51pm:
Now as we know, the mass execution almost certainly didn't happen - the reality was that a few of the leaders who were responsible for the treachery were executed, and the rest were freed - as stated in the Quran.
Gandalf, you never did get round to citing the verse from the Quran you are referring to here.
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16
th, 2018 at 7:09pm:
Sure. The alleged banu qurayza massacre is not referenced in the Quran, and therefore not part of Islamic morals. Nor is any concept of mindless collective treacherous jews.
Are both of these statements true Gandalf?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza#Quran
According to the 14th century commentator Ibn Kathir, the event is referenced in the Quran:
And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.[Quran 33:26]
Ibn Kathir's commentary of the verse in his Tafsir is as follows:
Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.[2]
[Ibn Kathir, on Quran 33:26]
According to Ibn Kathir, Quran 33:09 and 33:10 is also related to the Banu Qurayza.[25]