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Muslims lie about the Quran (Read 7398 times)
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Muslims lie about the Quran
Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:38pm
 
http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Lying_abo...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_and_the_Just_War_Doctrin...

Wife beating

Muslims will often claim that the Quran forbids wife beating and rape.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

Sahih International: Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).

But not all Muslims deny this:

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:31am:
The second part does not detract one iota from the part I highlighted, in fact it just gives the green light for women to rape their husbands as well (don't laugh, this has happened before). It states a man has authority over his wife's body, this means he could have sex with her whenever he pleased, does it not?


Smacking a disobedient wife is not wife beating:

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:57pm:
There is no doubt that in Islam the husband has control over the family, and therefore he is able to disclipine the wife. I've never come across a Muslim women who's ever  spoken against that idea. However they do oppose domestic violence, as does any normal person with half an iota of decency in them. Domestic violence is a disease which must be stamped out of all societies. But it has nothing to do with giving your wife a 'smack' when she's gotten out of control (if that ever were to happen, I can gladly say it's never been a problem for me). Likewise, I think most people would make a distinction between smacking children with a disclipinary smack, and abusing them... No?


Gaybriel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:26am:
"Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. 


More of the same:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287305391/17#17
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232575425/70#70

Arabic

Rintrah wrote on Dec 19th, 2008 at 12:52am:
Finally I am sorry, but a fact is that unless you have read the Qu'ran in Arabic, you will have little conception of what is said or conveyed within its words. I say this not only because it serves my arguments...


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:40am:
Quote:
where muslims say the koran can only be rightly understood in arabic


Would you accept the Australian government interpreting the Australian constitution in swahili? Probably not, and why should they? It exists in it's language, in which all the terms and concepts are clear, so why translate it to interpret it?

There's plenty of Western scholars who are also fluent Arabic speakers... So don't feel like it's just a way to remove it from the West's prying eyes.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:04pm:
The Koran never actually says that war should only be fought in self defence.


Good point FD - the Quran was written in Arabic and doesn't contain the English words "self defense".


Jews

Quran (5.82) "Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly."

The Quran is no more anti-semitic than the old testament:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2013 at 7:40pm:
When the Quran speaks of the 'children of Israel', it is literally speaking about people who are specifically identified as muslims. With this in mind, quranic criticisms of jews is no worse and no different to criticisms contained within the old testament - ie God demonstrating and warning "his" people where they have strayed before, and the consequences of that. So it doesn't make sense at all to say the quran is "anti-semitic".

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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:03pm by freediver »  

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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #1 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:40pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 11:05am:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 10:29am:
So what was your point with that? That Muhammed did not hate Jews because the Jews he hated were not "bona fide" Jews?


The consistent charge laid at Muhammad was that he hated jews for being jews - making him akin to your more orthodox "anti-semite". It fits the meme that current anti-semitism in the muslim world has a continuous lineage dating right back to the prophet himself. And central to this meme is that this anti-semitism has a doctrinal basis - and I note even you resorting to quranic quotes to support this line.

Yet if we have a group of people that Muhammad fought against that did not observe Mosaic Law, weren't familiar with the hebrew texts, and weren't ethnically "jewish" (as in not being part of the exile from Judea), then we are not really talking about a conflict  between muslims and jews - strictly speaking. We then start to understand the conflict as a rather more mundane political feud between like minded (culturally, linguistically and yes, religiously) cousins.

In that case, the whole doctrinal case of "Muhammad the anti-semite" gets thrown out the window. At that point we might even start to look at the conflict with some semblance of rationality - acknowledging that it was, more than anything else, a conflict over power-politics, not racism or (horror of horrors) anti-semitism.


It's not lying about the Quran if you are "paraphrasing".

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6th, 2017 at 7:44pm:
The Quran makes one passing reference to the Qurayza incident - and all it says is (paraphrasing) - 'some you killed and some you took prisoner - then later freed' - or in other words directly contradicting the Ishaq story that all adult males were killed.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2016 at 6:51pm:
Now as we know, the mass execution almost certainly didn't happen - the reality was that a few of the leaders who were responsible for the treachery were executed, and the rest were freed - as stated in the Quran.


What the verse actually says:

"And He brought down those of the People of the Scripture, namely, the [Banu] Qurayza, who had supported them from their strongholds (sayasi is the plural of sisa, and is that in which one fortifies himself [against an enemy]) and He cast terror into their hearts, [so that] some, of them, you slew, and these were the combatants, and some, of them, you took captive, namely, their children."

Apparently the Quran is "a single proven unreliable source".

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 6th, 2016 at 1:26pm:
On its own - quite possibly. Sloppy historical research always raises questions FD, and we know now that many of the estimates that were accepted for years were inflated. This is not a good look, and exposing, for example, the old 4 million at Auschwitz myth certainly didn't hurt the neo-nazi cause did it? Fortunately though, there is a tonne of rock-solid historical evidence to put any doubts about the holocaust to rest. Which is in stark contrast to the alleged Banu Qurayza massacre - which relies on a single proven unreliable source, and is directly contradicted by other sources.


More of the same:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1464336968/119#119

It can't be genocide because they only happen in times of peace:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1438922302/170#170

Suicide bombings

The Quran forbids suicide bombings because it forbids mutilating bodies (despite, for example, Muhammad being fond of decpaitating live Jews):

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407127340

Agreeing with apologists who claim Muslims do not follow the Quran

If you are not imposing the Shariah law on people, you are not following the Quran:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:20pm:
The important thing fd is that Spot and I know both know what each other means. And we both know it's not what you mean, that is certain. Spot says I  don't follow the Qur'an, meaning I don't implement it on society, this is a statement of fact. I say I am not intending to force it onto Australian society, this is also a statement of fact.


Chapter 9, and the supposed doctrine of self defence

Chapter 9 of the Quran is devoted, in its entirety, to justifying acts of violence and warfare and motivating Muslims to commit acts of violence and war against non-Muslims.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

Muslims will try to claim that the Quran states a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224559154/11#11
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226377581/1#1

Verse 1 restricts context of whole of chapter 9

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 9:28am:
Chapter 9 opens by specifying in the very first verse that the chapter is only in reference to those mushriken to whom a treaty has been made. Verse 4 then clearly specifies that of those mushriken, the ones who "have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you" - are exempted.

This is not 'aggressive war' in anyone's book.

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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:36pm by freediver »  

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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #2 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:50pm
 
This is a lie. Not only does verse 1 not say what Gandalf claims, verse 3 goes on to state (to "all mankind") that Muhammad is free from all obligations to non-Muslims. Obviously this does not apply to those with a treaty, and verse 4 opens by listing them as an exception to this general rule. Verse 3 also instructs Muslims to give "tidings of a painful torment to those who disbelieve". Verse 5 gets even more interesting:

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Mushriken means non-Muslims.

Another effort to quote fractions of verses to mislead people about the content. In an astounding feat of hypocrisy, Gandalf also chooses the same post to criticise me for considering verses in isolation:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 3:56pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 12:33pm:
Gandalf does this say to slaughter the infidel wherever you find them, except for the ones you have a treaty with, unless they violate that treaty somehow?


Perhaps if you took that quote in isolation, but not if you took into consideration all of the preceding verses - starting from verse 1:

Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


which is followed in a logical sequence by...

Quote:
Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].


Clearly, from the outset this entire chapter concerns only those polytheists that had entered into treaties with the muslims. It then makes a clear distinction between those who had remained true to the treaty, and those who had not. The former are put in an "exempted" status.

So the sequence in your question is more accurately:

Among the polytheists to whom the muslims had a treaty with, exempt those who had been true to their treaty, then give the rest a certain number of months grace period to reestablish their treaties that they had broken - after which "kill the musrhiken wherever you find them".


By "followed in logical sequence" Gandalf means skip verses 2 and 3.

Here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/223#223

Gandalf argues that by refering to a subset (those with a treaty) of non-Muslims on one occasion it must automatically follow that every reference to non-Muslims is only a reference to that particular subset, even when it cannot possibly make sense (eg, verse 3 and 4). Verses 7 and 8 also goes on to explain why there ought not be any more treaties with any other non-Muslims besides those already made

Quoting chapter 9 in it's entirety is taking it out of context:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/90#90
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/92#92

Trying to turn "an eye for an eye" into a just war doctrine of proportionality:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/49#49

Note that the next verse (omitted from the quote) cites vengeance as a justification for violence, which contradicts every just war doctrine of self defence.

Another example from Chapter 9:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21st, 2017 at 12:37pm:
Funny FD didn't find these ayat from Chapter 9 important enough to highlight:

Quote:
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).


Quote:
13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.


Good grief - is the Quran saying its "pious" to make peace with those who have not wronged you, or supported others against you??

Could it possibly be that the Quran is saying that fighting is only permitted against those who violate oaths they have made with you, and who attack you first??


Again, the Quran simply does not say that this is the only context in which war is permitted. Chapter 9 is nothing but justifications and motivations for Muslims to slaughter the infidel, from start to finish.

This is what verses 3-5 actually state:

9:3 And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.
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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:52pm by freediver »  

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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #3 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:52pm
 
9:4. Except those of the Mushrikun [infidel] with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Gandalf quoting half a verse:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 9:49pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 8:15pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 7:21pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 2:31pm:
I think the Koran is full of contradictions. That's what you get from a man who started out preaching peace and tolerance and ended up preaching violence and hatred.

You can coerce people to perform the acts of faith, but it is not actually possible to compel them to believe.


Personally I don't see any contradiction between the freedom of belief verses and the war verses. In fact there is no reason that the freedom verses can't be taken as a preamble to the war verses - viz, fighting against disbelief per se is not justified or permitted - only fighting against those who seek to harm you is permitted. Reinforced by the crystal clear commands to cease fighting as soon as the oppression stops, and/or the enemy inclines towards peace.


Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them.


[but]So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous.


The rest of the verse makes it clear that this only applies to non Muslims who have a treaty:

7. How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves Al-Muttaqun

While other verses, and the examples from Muhammad, allow for Muslims to discard treaties in cases that are clearly not self defence.

Chapters 2 and 8, and the supposed doctrine of self defence

The Quran communicates a doctrine of self defence:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 9:35pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 8:37pm:
You also have not explained what this "just war" theory is.

You are not familiar with the just war doctrine? It simply means fighting in self defense. Thats it.  The Quran preaches a just war doctrine, that is plain enough.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:55pm:
A verse instructing muslims to fight aggressors who continue to wage war against muslims until they stop waging war or convert is a just war doctrine of self defense - yes:

Quote:
As for the oppressor who does not fight, then there are no texts in which God commands him to be fought. Rather, the unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they wage war, as is practiced by the majority of scholars and as is evident in the Book and Sunnah.


and...

Quote:
Fighting is only necessary to confront war and not to confront unbelief. For this reason, women and children are not killed, neither are the elderly, the blind, or monks who do not participate in fighting. Rather, we only fight those who wage war against us.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
It does however go out of its way to explain the meaning of self defense, and stipulate it as the condition upon which fighting is permitted:

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress - 2.190

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged... [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." - 22.39-40

So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. - 4:90

And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . - 8:61

FD can you please define for me what 'self defense' is - in a way that is different to the above descriptions?


The examples provided include justifying war and murder as an act of vengeance for past wrongs. This is not self defence. Two of the examples put the onus entirely on the other party to seek peace. This is not self defenc either. The final example is verse 2:190, which could perhaps pass for self defence if it explained what transgress actually means, and if it was not followed three verses later by a demand to fight until Islam is the only religion, as well as several other commands to kill them wherever you overtake them, etc.
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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:49pm by freediver »  

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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #4 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:53pm
 
Here is that command from 3 verses later:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 26th, 2017 at 1:24pm:
oh look, Allah even specifys that when fighting is permitted, it must end when the oppression is over:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. 1:193


This is actually verse 2:193, not 1:193. So we have a Muslim quoting the Quran saying to fight until Islam is the only religion, but it actually says war can only be fought in self defence. Furthermore, there is no explanation of any concept of oppression in the Quran. Here is a translation that is more internally consistent:

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=193

Mohsin Khan: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

Muslims are unable to give a straight answer about why it is sometimes translated as oppression or what Muhammad might mean by oppression, or what exactly non-Muslims must cease doing (the onus is on them) in order to aboid being slaughtered.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/10#10
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/15#15
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/19#19
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/17#17

The very next verse (2:194) does clearly communicate a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. However, when presented with this verse, Muslims will insist it is not even about war:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1513048082/316#136
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/126#126
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/75#77
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/127#127

The reason for this is that the Quran clearly limits warfare to self defence and a proportional response during the holy months only. See also verse 9:5.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 10th, 2018 at 9:49am:
Warfare is particularly relevant here - where for the first time in Arabic history a 'defensive war doctrine', if you like, is codified in the new religion's holy book, and becomes de-facto law of the land.


There is no such codification. There is only Gandalf taking commands to fight until Islam is the only religion and insisting it means self defence.

Another example of Gandlaf quoting verse 22:139

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 26th, 2017 at 1:24pm:
This is just one of the quotes FD inconceivably missed from post 71:

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.
22:39

Bolded  the key part - in case its not obvious enough.

Is this not clearly specifying who (and only who) fighting against is given permission to?


The truth is that the Quran gives many justifications for war and violence. This is just one, and it clearly does not state that it is the "only" justification. Nor is it self defence, rather it is vengeance.

Here is Gandalf citing another "only" justification given for war in the Quran, this time only for treaty violators.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2017 at 9:54pm:
No. Wikipedia, which as you yourself have argued most people will trust more than what is posted on this site (for example, your hysterical nonsense), and which has such good quality control it will "correct" anything wrong within an hour - cites numerous sources refuting the exact arguments that you are making, and pointing out that the verse only permits war against those who have actively violated treaties and attacked the muslims. The phrase "So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them" - therefore is absolutely universally applicable.


Again, the word "only" is notably absent, along with any communication of a self defence doctrine. Gandalf frequenctly uses relatively trivial transgressions of treaties that do not even exist to justify acts of war by Muhammad.

The Quran repeatedly commands Muslims to slaughter the infidel, only occasionally placing genuine limitations on it – eg where there is a peace treaty, unless there is some kind of trivial violation of the treaty. These verses were always conveniently revealed when Muhammad needed to motivate his followers to mobilise for war yet again, and for the most part Muslims correctly interpret them as motivational rather than as some poorly explained rule or restriction. Where restrictions such as following peace treaties are genuinely intended, the Quran states them clearly and explicitly, not as a riddle or a blank slate for filling in the gaps with whatever new moral imperatives Muslims pick up from non-Muslim legal theorists.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #5 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:54pm
 
Another example including verse 8:61

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:24am:
A bit more about the thematic flow of the Quran:

Chapter 9 is not the only chapter that deals with warfare and who should and shouldn't be killed during war. Another important reference is the preceding chapter (8). Now its important to point out that chapter 9 is the only verse that doesn't contain the "bismillah" (in the name of God) prefixed at the beginning. This is widely understood by scholars to be the case because chapter 8 and chapter 9 are meant to be a continuous narrative. Why is this important? There are a couple of significant commands in chapter 8 related to warfare, which IMO should be contextualised with chapter 9:

8:39...

And fight them until there is no fitnah* and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

*"fithah" literally means "disorder" and is commonly interpreted as oppression.

8:61...

And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The message is clear: fight against oppression, but incline towards peace if ever your enemy does so.

That is about as opposite a doctrine of 'aggressive war' as you can get. But more importantly, contextualised with chapter 9, and the "garr kill all non-believers" narrative seems even more ridiculous.

And there are other verses that clearly command muslims to not be aggressors in war.


The same again:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/111#111
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313/126#126
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1498873017/8#8
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1513048082/269#269

Here is the context - clearly not a doctrine of self defence. It cites, as justification for war, disbelief (8:12, 8:38, 8:39, 8:42, 8:57, 8:65), money and spoils of war (8:67, 8:69), treaty violations (no matter how trivial), as well as fear on the part of Muslims of treachery or treaty violations (8:58). It even cites "your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allah does know" as just targets (8:60). It instructs Muslims to prepare for war and to terrorise these people (8:12). Verse 8:60 is translated as either threatening or terrifying disbelievers with military preparations. It follows this by putting the onus once more on the other party to pursue peace in the face of this terror and preparation for war, and it this particular statement (8:61) that Gandalf tries to claim is a doctrine of self defence. Finally, verse 8:73 contains a general call for Muslims to unite under an Islamic state to impose Islam on non-Muslims.

Chapter 8 extracts

https://www.noblequran.com/translation/

12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.

14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

15. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them.

16. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day - unless it be a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own), - he indeed has drawn upon himself wrath from Allah. And his abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination!

17. You killed them not, but Allah killed them. And you (Muhammad ) threw not when you did throw but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair trial from Him. Verily, Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.


34. And why should not Allah punish them while they stop (men) from Al-Masjid-al-Haram, and they are not its guardians? None can be its guardian except Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2), but most of them know not.

35. Their Salat (prayer) at the House (of Allah, i.e. the Ka'bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Therefore taste the punishment because you used to disbelieve.

36. Verily, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend it; but in the end it will become an anguish for them. Then they will be overcomed. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto Hell.

37. In order that Allah may distinguish the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) from the good (believers of Islamic Monotheism and doers of righteous deeds), and put the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) one on another, heap them together and cast them into Hell. Those! it is they who are the losers.

38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).

39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-See
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #6 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:55pm
 
40. And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Maula (Patron, Lord, Protector and Supporter, etc.), (what) an Excellent Maula, and (what) an Excellent Helper!

41. And know that whatever of war-booty that you may gain, verily one-fifth (1/5th) of it is assigned to Allah, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives [of the Messenger (Muhammad )], (and also) the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor) and the wayfarer, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our slave (Muhammad ) on the Day of criterion (between right and wrong), the Day when the two forces met (the battle of Badr) - And Allah is Able to do all things.

42. (And remember) when you (the Muslim army) were on the near side of the valley, and they on the farther side, and the caravan on the ground lower than you. Even if you had made a mutual appointment to meet, you would certainly have failed in the appointment, but (you met) that Allah might accomplish a matter already ordained (in His Knowledge); so that those who were to be destroyed (for their rejecting the Faith) might be destroyed after a clear evidence, and those who were to live (i.e. believers) might live after a clear evidence. And surely, Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.


55. Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve , - so they shall not believe.

56. They are those with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time and they do not fear Allah.

57. So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson.

58. If you (O Muhammad ) fear treachery from any people throw back (their covenant) to them (so as to be) on equal terms (that there will be no more covenant between you and them). Certainly Allah likes not the treacherous.

59. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from Allah's Punishment).

60. And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allah does know. And whatever you shall spend in the Cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly.

61. But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

62. And if they intend to deceive you, then verily, Allah is All-Sufficient for you. He it is Who has supported you with His Help and with the believers.

63. And He has united their (i.e. believers') hearts. If you had spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah has united them. Certainly He is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

64. O Prophet (Muhammad )! Allah is Sufficient for you and for the believers who follow you.

65. O Prophet (Muhammad )! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are people who do not understand.

66. Now Allah has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allah. And Allah is with As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).

67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

68. Were it not a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe torment would have touched you for what you took.

69. So enjoy what you have gotten of booty in war, lawful and good, and be afraid of Allah. Certainly, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

73. And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so (i.e. become allies, as one united block with one Khalifah - chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world to make victorious Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism), there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism).
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #7 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:58pm
 
Gandalf accusing others of taking the 'bad' bits of the Quran out of context (by quoting all of chapter 9):

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 24th, 2017 at 6:53pm:
Yes FD, the Quran must be understood as a whole - and yes, individual verses are linked to other verses, Chapter 9 being no exception. I understand this is inconvenient for you since you will never read it for yourself and prefer to get spoonfed the "bad" bits taken out of context.


In addition to arguing that verse 1 of chapter 9 limits the context of the entire chapter, Gandalf also argues that chapter 9 is unique in that it is a continuation of the previous chapter.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:51pm
 

muslims lie about everything
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 7:17pm
 
The latest version: the Quran says to fight them until Islam is for Allah:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:24pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:09pm:
and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah

Would you like to offer your interpretation of this Gandalf?


err 'religion, all of it' = entire world? Is that your answer FD?

Maybe it means the religion of Islam - all of it - is dedicated to Allah alone (ie not for idols etc)??

I'm confused FD, can you explain to me where the connection to physical land/territory is here?



Gandalf, regarding your interpretation of Chapter 9, does it mean that any agreement that non-Muslims enter into with Muslims can only ever increase their risk of getting slaughtered by Muslims? That is, you think that Muslims may only ever act in self defence, except in the case of treaty violators, who can be slaughtered for any violation of the treaty?
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #10 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:04am
 
FD, has an s somehow slipped in again?

Maybe you should get your keyboard checked.
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #11 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 1:55pm
 
FD, do you post all this because it helps your self esteem or gives you some meaning to your life, or do you actually believe that anyone is going to bother trawling through all this crap that no one else cares about?

Sad, really.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #12 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 7:05pm
 
Regarding your interpretation of Chapter 9, does it mean that any agreement that non-Muslims enter into with Muslims can only ever increase their risk of getting slaughtered by Muslims? That is, you think that Muslims may only ever act in self defence, except in the case of treaty participants, who can be slaughtered for any violation of the treaty?
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #13 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 7:14pm
 
Also, how do you go from this:

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:54pm:
Chapter 8 extracts

https://www.noblequran.com/translation/

12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.

14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

15. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them.

16. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day - unless it be a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own), - he indeed has drawn upon himself wrath from Allah. And his abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination!

17. You killed them not, but Allah killed them. And you (Muhammad ) threw not when you did throw but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair trial from Him. Verily, Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.


34. And why should not Allah punish them while they stop (men) from Al-Masjid-al-Haram, and they are not its guardians? None can be its guardian except Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2), but most of them know not.

35. Their Salat (prayer) at the House (of Allah, i.e. the Ka'bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Therefore taste the punishment because you used to disbelieve.

36. Verily, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend it; but in the end it will become an anguish for them. Then they will be overcomed. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto Hell.

37. In order that Allah may distinguish the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) from the good (believers of Islamic Monotheism and doers of righteous deeds), and put the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) one on another, heap them together and cast them into Hell. Those! it is they who are the losers.

38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).

39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-See


to this:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 2:10pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 9:53pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:24pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:09pm:
and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah

Would you like to offer your interpretation of this Gandalf?


err 'religion, all of it' = entire world? Is that your answer FD?

Maybe it means the religion of Islam - all of it - is dedicated to Allah alone (ie not for idols etc)??

I'm confused FD, can you explain to me where the connection to physical land/territory is here?


I agree.

So the Quran says to fight the disbelievers until Islam is for Allah?


It says fight until muslims are able to worship freely.

Fight for your rights innit. Unconscionable sentiment I know.


???
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Re: Muslims lie about the Quran
Reply #14 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 3:20pm
 
I agree FD, when you cherry pick that one obscure translation that defines fitnah differently to almost all other translations - my argument doesn't make sense.

Did it ever seem absurd to you to happily use Sahih International all this time, until suddenly when it doesn't quite define a particular word the way you prefer, and so you dig up another obscure, near-universally rejected transation that does?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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