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Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian (Read 1661 times)
Frank
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #30 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:41pm
 
It's about concocted white guilt - can't tell brown people when they are doing evil. Not to Indonesians, not to Aborigines, Africans, Arabs.

ONLY white people can be criticised for evil deeds, otherwise racism will be instantly deployed. Any reference to universal human values will be immediately undermined as 'white social constructs to subjugate the tinted races'.

It's the new Nazi/Stalinism. Dissenters will be persecuted.





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goldkam
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #31 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:52pm
 
Frank wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
It's about concocted white guilt - can't tell brown people when they are doing evil. Not to Indonesians, not to Aborigines, Africans, Arabs.

ONLY white people can be criticised for evil deeds, otherwise racism will be instantly deployed. Any reference to universal human values will be immediately undermined as 'white social constructs to subjugate the tinted races'.

It's the new Nazi/Stalinism. Dissenters will be persecuted.








I don't quite know how you can draw such a statement. This may be how some feel in relation to the actions of other cultures and races, however I don't believe individuals cannot tell others when they are doing evil. Are you stating that if anything is said its classified as racist??

Bit of a stretch from Stalinism, I don't see gulags, prison camps or propaganda anywhere?
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Brian Ross
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #32 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:08pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:30pm:
Yes, yes we focused on being 'jack' arseholes and looked after ourselves while ignoring the atrocities of this filthy scum the indonesians, kinda the point of this post.


Actually, it's a recognition that we had initially a lack of willpower, then a lack of the means and finally a lack of support.   Without all three, we were basically in the pooh.  The Tories under Menzies thought Sukarno was a Communist.  He wasn't but he was something their Tory minds couldn't recognise - a nationalist.    The Australian Government then carried on that thinking about Suharto, despite him coming to power by defeating the Communists.  Without US support we were basically stuffed.   We only just carried off the East Timor intervention because the Indonesians didn't want to fight over East Timor.  They'd had enough of the place and the people.

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We had the capacity to reign them in we just lacked the willpower and moral fortitude and for that privilege we will always be dammed as gutless cowards.


You only gain moral fortitude through the belief of the people.  West New Guinea was a Dutch, then UN matter for the most part.   East Timor was a Portuguese matter for the most part.  Both the Dutch and the UN ditched their responsibilities and the Indonesians moved in.   Bad luck for the West New Guineans and the East Timorese.   Not our problem, morally or fiscally or politically.   We just tried to surf the waves that flowed from it.    The Australian Government was not prepared to risk Australian lives over the matter.

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No Australian should be proud of what have done and allowed to be done to our neighbours.


Dunno why not.   We acted in OUR best interests.   We protected OUR people.   We defended OUR nation.   That is what our Government is charged with.   We are not the Government of either West New Guinea or East Timor.   QED.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #33 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:20pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
red baron wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:00pm:
In fact going back to the 70's one of the main reasons Australia bought the F-111's p-lane was that they had the capacity to fly to Indonesia on a mission and return without refuelling


We actually purchase the F-111s in 1963, not the 1970s.   We actually originally purchased them to attack the PRC from Butterworth with atomic weapons (supplied in theory by the British).   They were later justified because of the TNI-AU's purchase of Tu16 bombers.


We did sign the paperwork in the 60s but we didn't get delivery until '73 the 24 aircraft were the most lethal weapon in the area and lobbing a few 2000 pounders in downtown jakarta would have reigned in their murderous and raping ways.

When we invaded (eventually) Timor all we had to do park a few Pigs at Tindal to let the grubs know we meant business and to not even think about launching any sort of attack on our people.

All we proved before that was that we were more cowardly than the muslims, unwilling to support our neighbours when they needed us most. Something we still continue to do.  Angry Angry Angry


Ah, yes, lets go to war over something which at the time hadn't happened yet.   Yep, real smart thinking that.

West New Guinea became part of Indonesia in questionable circumstances but we had spent our bolt four years earlier.  The US didn't back us, we lacked the military means to intervene (we had, in 1960, three battalions of infantry, one of which was committed to Malaya, the one was training to go and the third had just returned).  Our artillery was still equipped with 25 Pounders.  We had just started looking at a new APC (M113) and we had just accepted the Centurion tank (which would have been pretty useless up there).  We had four squadrons of short-range, tactical fighters - CA27 Avon Sabres.  We had two squadrons of short-range, tactical bombers - Canberras.   We had two squadrons of C-47 Dakotas and had just purchased a squadron of C-130A Hercules.  We had one ASW Carrier (Melbourne) and four destroyers, just having lost the fifth (Voyager).   Admittedly, the Indonesians had even less but they were closer to West New Guinea than we were (all our fleet assets were based in Sydney/Melbourne.  Our air assets were basically based in SE Queensland.  Our land assets were based primarily in Sydney/Melbourne.)

Ditto for East Timor.  The US had just been booted out of Vietnam.  We had left three years earlier.  Australian society was in turmoil from our involvement in Vietnam.   Our defence forces had been run down.  The US backed Indonesia again.   It didn't even consult us.  Nixon was such a bastard, hey?

Why do you have problems facing the historic reality of our circumstances in 1960 and 1975?   This is what happened.  This is why it happened.   Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #34 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:20pm
 
goldkam wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:52pm:
Frank wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
It's about concocted white guilt - can't tell brown people when they are doing evil. Not to Indonesians, not to Aborigines, Africans, Arabs.

ONLY white people can be criticised for evil deeds, otherwise racism will be instantly deployed. Any reference to universal human values will be immediately undermined as 'white social constructs to subjugate the tinted races'.

It's the new Nazi/Stalinism. Dissenters will be persecuted.





I don't quite know how you can draw such a statement. This may be how some feel in relation to the actions of other cultures and races, however I don't believe individuals cannot tell others when they are doing evil. Are you stating that if anything is said its classified as racist??

Bit of a stretch from Stalinism, I don't see gulags, prison camps or propaganda anywhere?



Removing Aboriginal children from toxic environments is avoided for fear of accusations of racism and another stolen rescued generation.

It's almost impossible to say no to third world immigration for feear of being called racist.

You cannot criticise third world countries like Indonesia,without them immediately retorting  with faux 'post-colonial' outrage.

Imagine all this in reverse - if Australia, being criticised by Indians for racism, retorted that we do not need lecturing from a primitive country with a long and enduring custom of caste system and unbelievable human poverty and suffering.

Or to Aborigines, that they should put their own communities and lives in order and stop brutalising, raping and beating  each other before they put their hands out for more money from the rest of Australia.

By Stalinism I was referring to politically correct speech. And yes, there IS propaganda everywhere. The gulags are now compulsory re-education courses in diversity and the like.



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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #35 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:37pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:08pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:30pm:
Yes, yes we focused on being 'jack' arseholes and looked after ourselves while ignoring the atrocities of this filthy scum the indonesians, kinda the point of this post.


Actually, it's a recognition that we had initially a lack of willpower, then a lack of the means and finally a lack of support.   Without all three, we were basically in the pooh.  The Tories under Menzies thought Sukarno was a Communist.  He wasn't but he was something their Tory minds couldn't recognise - a nationalist.    The Australian Government then carried on that thinking about Suharto, despite him coming to power by defeating the Communists.  Without US support we were basically stuffed.   We only just carried off the East Timor intervention because the Indonesians didn't want to fight over East Timor.  They'd had enough of the place and the people.

Quote:
We had the capacity to reign them in we just lacked the willpower and moral fortitude and for that privilege we will always be dammed as gutless cowards.


You only gain moral fortitude through the belief of the people.  West New Guinea was a Dutch, then UN matter for the most part.   East Timor was a Portuguese matter for the most part.  Both the Dutch and the UN ditched their responsibilities and the Indonesians moved in.   Bad luck for the West New Guineans and the East Timorese.   Not our problem, morally or fiscally or politically.   We just tried to surf the waves that flowed from it.    The Australian Government was not prepared to risk Australian lives over the matter.

Quote:
No Australian should be proud of what have done and allowed to be done to our neighbours.


Dunno why not.   We acted in OUR best interests.   We protected OUR people.   We defended OUR nation.   That is what our Government is charged with.   We are not the Government of either West New Guinea or East Timor.   QED.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



My point exactly, we only do what benefits us, fkk everyone else, fkk the weak and vulnerable, if they are being killed in their hundreds of thousands, not our fkken problem. Our actions were made even more vile and despicable by the fact that, what was being done to the Timorese, our fellow Australians found it funny.


We had the capacity to knock the fkken sh1t out of those jungle monkeys and we did nothing.


We better hope we never find ourselves in need, I doubt we would be worthy of any real effort by anyone to come help us, no-one likes a jack piece of sh1t, no matter how nice their beaches are.



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Brian Ross
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #36 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:52pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:37pm:
My point exactly, we only do what benefits us, fkk everyone else, fkk the weak and vulnerable, if they are being killed in their hundreds of thousands, not our fkken problem. Our actions were made even more vile and despicable by the fact that, what was being done to the Timorese, our fellow Australians found it funny.

We had the capacity to knock the fkken sh1t out of those jungle monkeys and we did nothing.

We better hope we never find ourselves in need, I doubt we would be worthy of any real effort by anyone to come help us, no-one likes a jack piece of sh1t, no matter how nice their beaches are.


All nations, at their most basic, act out of self-interest, BigOl64.  That self-interest can be modified by the needs of neighbours, allies, friends, etc. if necessary and it suits our needs.  It is why we went to war in 1914 and 1939 and 1950 and 1965.   It was why we became involved in the Malayan Emergency, Somalia and finally in East Timor, Solomon Islands and Iraq (twice).    It was to our benefit it seemed and within our abilities to intervene.

In 1960 and 1975, it was outside our abilities and it did not seem to directly benefit us.  In both cases, the Government of the day acted on advice from the Public Service and the Military Chiefs.   They advised us not to, because in both cases we lacked support from the US.   Without, it was determined that we had little chance of success on our own.   Now, you can blame the Government for being over-cautious but it was cautious.   

We had survived WWII and Vietnam.   After both conflicts, the Government of the day had run down the ADF.  The civilian economy had benefited in both cases.   In both cases we were not prepared to fight in either West New Guinea or East Timor, on our own.    We barely were when we did intervene in 1999, after we had rebuilt the ADF.  Without significant leasing of Russian heavy transport aircraft it wouldn't have worked.

As much as you moan and whinge, the Australian Government acted for the best interest of Australia.   We did intervene in 1999, we did undo our failure to intervene earlier.   We helped the East Timorese achieve independence.    West New Guinea?  Not going to happen.  The Indonesian claim is on firmer ground.  It is essentially a part of Indonesia.  Roll Eyes

   


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Valkie
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #37 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:04pm
 
Australia should just leave all other countries to their own devices.

Zero aid

Zero interference

Zero money

But we should also spend up big on weapons and retaliate with extreme prejudice any incursions into our land.

We do not need them, but they need us

Let's see how good they are without all our aid and money.
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Rhino
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #38 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:48am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.
yeah, you are making a real difference, here whinging on an internet forum.  What protests did you organise or participate in? petitions? Anything?
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Rhino
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #39 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:51am
 
red baron wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:00pm:

When I was in the RAAF Indonesia was considered a real threat to this Country


Rubbish.
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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #40 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 2:04am
 
Rhino wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:48am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.
yeah, you are making a real difference, here whinging on an internet forum.  What protests did you organise or participate in? petitions? Anything?




You do realise that service personnel don't protest or participate in petitions, don't you?


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Rhino
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #41 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 2:20am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 2:04am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:48am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.
yeah, you are making a real difference, here whinging on an internet forum.  What protests did you organise or participate in? petitions? Anything?




You do realise that service personnel don't protest or participate in petitions, don't you?


Grappler hasnt been in in the forces for decades. This is Grappler.
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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #42 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 2:27am
 
Rhino wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 2:20am:
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 2:04am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:48am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.
yeah, you are making a real difference, here whinging on an internet forum.  What protests did you organise or participate in? petitions? Anything?




You do realise that service personnel don't protest or participate in petitions, don't you?


Grappler hasnt been in in the forces for decades. This is Grappler.




Indonesians haven't been raping and murdering Timorese for decades either.


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.JaSin.
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #43 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 3:00am
 
Last year, the Maori-like Borneans marched in their thousands, traditionally armed against the Moslem trouble-makers.
This 'Indigenous' front was a show of force against Moslem Indonesia and was openly making a statement of solidarity with Hindu Balinese and 5 other minority groups against Moslem Indonesia.
By 'coincidence' - the Phillipines waged a mini-war against Moslem Terrorists/Drug Dealers around the same time and 'connections' were made between leaders of the Indonesian Indigenous groups and the Phillipines.
By 'coincidence' - the East Timorese and Micronesians also pepped up their opinions against 'Moslem' Indonesia.
Which brought it to Irian Jaya and Papua New Guinea.
Unofficially, a lot of PNG Military is stacked near the Border to Irian Jaya.
Unofficially, the Solomon Islands - have pledged 'military' support.

...currently the East Timorese have just expressed a need for stronger ties with Australia as well as some 'benefits' like International Water zones and more.


In other words - the whole region is 'teaming up' against 'Moslem' Indonesia (not indigenous Indonesia0.
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HERE, DRINK TO MY HEALTH & 'your' WINE
 
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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #44 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 3:20am
 
.JaSin. wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 3:00am:
Last year, the Maori-like Borneans marched in their thousands, traditionally armed against the Moslem trouble-makers.
This 'Indigenous' front was a show of force against Moslem Indonesia and was openly making a statement of solidarity with Hindu Balinese and 5 other minority groups against Moslem Indonesia.
By 'coincidence' - the Phillipines waged a mini-war against Moslem Terrorists/Drug Dealers around the same time and 'connections' were made between leaders of the Indonesian Indigenous groups and the Phillipines.
By 'coincidence' - the East Timorese and Micronesians also pepped up their opinions against 'Moslem' Indonesia.
Which brought it to Irian Jaya and Papua New Guinea.
Unofficially, a lot of PNG Military is stacked near the Border to Irian Jaya.
Unofficially, the Solomon Islands - have pledged 'military' support.

...currently the East Timorese have just expressed a need for stronger ties with Australia as well as some 'benefits' like International Water zones and more.


In other words - the whole region is 'teaming up' against 'Moslem' Indonesia (not indigenous Indonesia0.



Nice  Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley

Anything to keep those bastards in their place
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