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Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian (Read 1362 times)
cods
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #15 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:30am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.



isnt that what you are doing grap??>..only from the safety of your home.......

you are rubbishing all Australians  over something you and I wouldnt know the half of.......

what would you have the govt do?????..Howard coped all sorts of flak from the left over Timor...so those that did step up are condemned....

tell us what you want the govt of the day to do??..


remember labor couldnt hold back an armada of ricketty boats...

just one small detail.



Armed forces personnel      
Australian....51,000
Ranked 67th.      

Indonesia....297,000
Ranked 16th. 6 times more than Australia

it looks so easy from a lounge room point of view.
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philperth2010
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #16 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:27am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:18am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:08am:
I had an old mate, he was about 80 - we shared accommodation for a while.  He was a Lieutenant in 2/2 Commandos in ET... did the parade at the local RSL on ANZAC Day.

The whole thing about Indonesia and ET and the rest is a disgrace on this nation - a bunch of gutless wonders.



What saddens me the most is that as a whole, Australia really never gave a fkk about Timor or now West Papua, these same people would scream blue murder if only a small proportion of the horrors bestowed by indonesia happen to them.


Our self-serving politicians meekly stood by while this was happening and the public servants thought is was just some fkking joke.


I for one will never forgive fraser, hawke or keating and I will never forgive those vile pigs the indonesians, the whole country could be bombed into the fkking stone age for all I care.  Angry Angry Angry




What about the Howard Government....The actions of the Howard Government were completely self serving and counter productive to East Timor independence....Why am I not surprised you are a partisan hack who looks past the actions of the Coalition....The only reason you mentioned Fraser was because he started the crap in the first place....Howard finished the hatchet job???

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-21/henriss-address-the-oil-injustice/6790978
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bogarde73
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #17 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:33am
 
They have signed the maritime border agreement but they haven't yet agreed on the Sunrise oil&gas processing
We are so full of generosity that we balk at letting them have the processing in Timor, which would mean so much to them.
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tickleandrose
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #18 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:00am
 
Re BigO

Indonesia have served and continue to serve as an important buffer between us and the encroaching communist threat.   back in the 50s to 70s, the Indonesians had helped to crack down on the spread of communism, and this is why all the atrocities that committed were not given any attention. 

This is the sad world of geopolitics.  And often, its the people that suffers.
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #19 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 12:45pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:00am:
Re BigO

Indonesia have served and continue to serve as an important buffer between us and the encroaching communist threat.   back in the 50s to 70s, the Indonesians had helped to crack down on the spread of communism, and this is why all the atrocities that committed were not given any attention. 

This is the sad world of geopolitics.  And often, its the people that suffers. 


Chamberlainism.........or appeasement.......
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #20 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 12:49pm
 
cods wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:30am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.



isnt that what you are doing grap??>..only from the safety of your home.......

you are rubbishing all Australians  over something you and I wouldnt know the half of.......

what would you have the govt do?????..Howard coped all sorts of flak from the left over Timor...so those that did step up are condemned....

tell us what you want the govt of the day to do??..


remember labor couldnt hold back an armada of ricketty boats...

just one small detail.



Armed forces personnel      
Australian....51,000
Ranked 67th.      

Indonesia....297,000
Ranked 16th. 6 times more than Australia

it looks so easy from a lounge room point of view.


Emotive nonsense, cods - I'm criticising government - not 'every Australian'.... get with the program here, and this issue is one I've long argued here and elsewhere.

Government should have taken a clear stand and gathered international support for stopping the atrocities and such... there are plenty out there to support such a move, including the United States, which will intervene if we are attacked.  I doubt the 297,000 Indos in arms would stick around long enough to do more than raise heel dust......

As for Indonesia being a buffer zone for the Communist Peril - that's all well and good - but they do that for themselves - not for us, and we owe them nothing for that.

It is the gutlessness of government in not speaking out that is at issue here, and it has little to do with Labor and a few rickety boats - those still come, BTW, but are hijacked on the High Seas and forced elsewhere.
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« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2018 at 12:55pm by Ye Grappler »  

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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #21 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:36pm
 
philperth2010 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:27am:
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:18am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:08am:
I had an old mate, he was about 80 - we shared accommodation for a while.  He was a Lieutenant in 2/2 Commandos in ET... did the parade at the local RSL on ANZAC Day.

The whole thing about Indonesia and ET and the rest is a disgrace on this nation - a bunch of gutless wonders.



What saddens me the most is that as a whole, Australia really never gave a fkk about Timor or now West Papua, these same people would scream blue murder if only a small proportion of the horrors bestowed by indonesia happen to them.


Our self-serving politicians meekly stood by while this was happening and the public servants thought is was just some fkking joke.


I for one will never forgive fraser, hawke or keating and I will never forgive those vile pigs the indonesians, the whole country could be bombed into the fkking stone age for all I care.  Angry Angry Angry




What about the Howard Government....The actions of the Howard Government were completely self serving and counter productive to East Timor independence....Why am I not surprised you are a partisan hack who looks past the actions of the Coalition....The only reason you mentioned Fraser was because he started the crap in the first place....Howard finished the hatchet job???

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-21/henriss-address-the-oil-injustice/6790978



You do know I hate that little grub howard, so top notch reply there champ.

Having said that, how many Timorese are being rapes and murdered by those filthy scumbag indonesians?


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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #22 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:40pm
 
cods wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:30am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


An invasion of one?  Yeah - that'd work, hero.



isnt that what you are doing grap??>..only from the safety of your home.......

you are rubbishing all Australians  over something you and I wouldnt know the half of.......

what would you have the govt do?????..Howard coped all sorts of flak from the left over Timor...so those that did step up are condemned....

tell us what you want the govt of the day to do??..


remember labor couldnt hold back an armada of ricketty boats...

just one small detail.



Armed forces personnel      
Australian....51,000
Ranked 67th.      

Indonesia....297,000
Ranked 16th. 6 times more than Australia

it looks so easy from a lounge room point of view.



So know a lot about the 'gap' do you? Must be all those years of military service.


Australia very much had the ability to bomb those grubs back into the fkken stone age, I maintained that capability for a few years, while you were doing .................?

Looks like you are the only one here who sat comfortably on the lounge.
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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #23 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:42pm
 
Fuzzball wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 12:45pm:
tickleandrose wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:00am:
Re BigO

Indonesia have served and continue to serve as an important buffer between us and the encroaching communist threat.   back in the 50s to 70s, the Indonesians had helped to crack down on the spread of communism, and this is why all the atrocities that committed were not given any attention. 

This is the sad world of geopolitics.  And often, its the people that suffers. 


Chamberlainism.........or appeasement.......



Im surprised we haven't had the apologist here explaining that due to our cowardice and appeasement we manage to keep the murder rate in the hundreds of thousands and not more and it is indonesias right to treat their people as they see fit.

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red baron
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #24 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:00pm
 
We can never trust Indonesia and we must maintain a Military Force strong enough to deal with Indonesia should they become a threat to this Country

In fact going back to the 70's one of the main reasons Australia bought the F-111's p-lane was that they had the capacity to fly to Indonesia on a mission and return without refuelling

When I was in the RAAF Indonesia was considered a real threat to this Country

With Donald Trump in charge of America I wouldn't place to much confidence in America racing to Australia's defence

Has Donald Trump excluded Australia from the tarrifs which will affect this Country?

I see Canada and Mexico on the exclusions, I don't see Australia

We MUST be able to defend ourselves in our own right
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Brian Ross
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #25 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:04pm
 
We had our chance to help shape Indonesia when they came to us for help during their war of Independence from the Dutch.  The Government of the day turned their backs on Sukarno and Co.  The end result was the creation of his regime and Konfrontasi.   We turned our backs on the West New Guineans when the US and the Dutch pulled the carpet from under us and we had no means to back our threats against the Indonesian Konfrontasi against the Dutch. We stood up to the Indonesians in Borneo 'cause the British backed us and the Malaysians (who weren't without fault either).  We turned our backs on the East Timorese in 1975 'cause the US had backed Suharto and didn't want a Communist state created on our back door step.  Something often forgotten is that Fretlin had backing from Vietnam and was an avowed Marxist organisation.    We didn't turn our back in 1999 when the Indonesians held a plebiscite in East Timor and were forced to pull out.

Now, what did we get from turning our backs?  Well, quite a few more Australian citizens who weren't sent off to die in a war with Indonesia.    We also gained respect from the Indonesians, both before but more particularly after the Boxing Day Tsunami.   Yes, we purchased that respect and we continue to pay for it.  However, it has meant that the boats have stopped.   It has also meant that the drug trade has been disrupted.  Terrorism on our doorstep has been disrupted.   We have saved millions of dollars n defence expenditure.

Of course, to some, to save such money rather than "thrust their hands, wrist deep into the blood of Australia's young..." (a quote from a rejoinder during the 1966 Election campaign about Vietnam).   What is also forgotten that in 1975 Australian society was disunited because of the Vietnam War.  Australia wasn't interested in another war. Also we were basically broke.  The resources boom which never came, never came.   Our economy was in tatters and it remained in tatters until the ALP was election 1983.  Thanks Tories.   Roll Eyes

Bad luck for the West New Guineans and the East Timorese but in reality, neither were our responsibility.   In RealPolitik, it is much better to look after your own citizens than the citizens of another nation or colony.   If they were anyone's responsibility they were the Dutch and the Portuguese's (respectively).  They decided to pull out.  In the first case, the UN moved in.  Blame the UN for the Indonesians taking over.    You're all usually good at blaming the UN for all the world's calamities.   In the latter case, the Indonesians invaded after a civil war where their proxy lost.

Now, instead of carping over lost opportunities, how about we build a bright, new future, with a democratic Indonesia?   They kicked their last dictator out 20 years ago, remember.   How about we help them rein in their military?   And how do we do that?  By teaching them how to be responsible.   Tsk, tsk.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #26 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:11pm
 
red baron wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:00pm:
In fact going back to the 70's one of the main reasons Australia bought the F-111's p-lane was that they had the capacity to fly to Indonesia on a mission and return without refuelling


We actually purchase the F-111s in 1963, not the 1970s.   We actually originally purchased them to attack the PRC from Butterworth with atomic weapons (supplied in theory by the British).   They were later justified because of the TNI-AU's purchase of Tu16 bombers.

Quote:
When I was in the RAAF Indonesia was considered a real threat to this Country


It may have been a minor threat to Australia however since the retirement of the Tu16s, it has never constituted a major one.   It has always lacked the ability to attack anywhere of value except Darwin.   Since the creation of Tindal Air Base, that threat has been considerably reduced.  Along of course with the whole "northwards" reorientation of the ADF.

Quote:
We MUST be able to defend ourselves in our own right


Of course we should and we are increasingly able to.  The purchase of the two LHDs, the counter-air Destroyers and the Collins and their replacements will be a big help.  As will the F-35s when they arrive.  The M1a1 AIM is a questionable choice because of the problems of moving them in large enough numbers around Australia.
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #27 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:28pm
 
Rhino wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:15am:
Just wondering why you armchair heroes didnt actually do something about it instead of whinging on an obscure internet forum.


I have often wondered that myself. Not much good writing up your opinions on a forum if that is all people are going to do. Pick yourself out of your chair and actually think of a strategy to overcome your perceived problems.
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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #28 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:30pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:04pm:
We had our chance to help shape Indonesia when they came to us for help during their war of Independence from the Dutch.  The Government of the day turned their backs on Sukarno and Co.  The end result was the creation of his regime and Konfrontasi.   We turned our backs on the West New Guineans when the US and the Dutch pulled the carpet from under us and we had no means to back our threats against the Indonesian Konfrontasi against the Dutch. We stood up to the Indonesians in Borneo 'cause the British backed us and the Malaysians (who weren't without fault either).  We turned our backs on the East Timorese in 1975 'cause the US had backed Suharto and didn't want a Communist state created on our back door step.  Something often forgotten is that Fretlin had backing from Vietnam and was an avowed Marxist organisation.    We didn't turn our back in 1999 when the Indonesians held a plebiscite in East Timor and were forced to pull out.

Now, what did we get from turning our backs?  Well, quite a few more Australian citizens who weren't sent off to die in a war with Indonesia.    We also gained respect from the Indonesians, both before but more particularly after the Boxing Day Tsunami.   Yes, we purchased that respect and we continue to pay for it.  However, it has meant that the boats have stopped.   It has also meant that the drug trade has been disrupted.  Terrorism on our doorstep has been disrupted.   We have saved millions of dollars n defence expenditure.

Of course, to some, to save such money rather than "thrust their hands, wrist deep into the blood of Australia's young..." (a quote from a rejoinder during the 1966 Election campaign about Vietnam).   What is also forgotten that in 1975 Australian society was disunited because of the Vietnam War.  Australia wasn't interested in another war. Also we were basically broke.  The resources boom which never came, never came.   Our economy was in tatters and it remained in tatters until the ALP was election 1983.  Thanks Tories.   Roll Eyes

Bad luck for the West New Guineans and the East Timorese but in reality, neither were our responsibility.   In RealPolitik, it is much better to look after your own citizens than the citizens of another nation or colony.   If they were anyone's responsibility they were the Dutch and the Portuguese's (respectively).  They decided to pull out.  In the first case, the UN moved in.  Blame the UN for the Indonesians taking over.    You're all usually good at blaming the UN for all the world's calamities.   In the latter case, the Indonesians invaded after a civil war where their proxy lost.

Now, instead of carping over lost opportunities, how about we build a bright, new future, with a democratic Indonesia?   They kicked their last dictator out 20 years ago, remember.   How about we help them rein in their military?   And how do we do that?  By teaching them how to be responsible.   Tsk, tsk.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Yes, yes we focused on being 'jack' arseholes and looked after ourselves while ignoring the atrocities of this filthy scum the indonesians, kinda the point of this post.

We had the capacity to reign them in we just lacked the willpower and moral fortitude and for that privilege we will always be dammed as gutless cowards.


No Australian should be proud of what have done and allowed to be done to our neighbours.


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BigOl64
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Re: Why we should all be ashamed to be Australian
Reply #29 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
red baron wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:00pm:
In fact going back to the 70's one of the main reasons Australia bought the F-111's p-lane was that they had the capacity to fly to Indonesia on a mission and return without refuelling


We actually purchase the F-111s in 1963, not the 1970s.   We actually originally purchased them to attack the PRC from Butterworth with atomic weapons (supplied in theory by the British).   They were later justified because of the TNI-AU's purchase of Tu16 bombers.

 



We did sign the paperwork in the 60s but we didn't get delivery until '73 the 24 aircraft were the most lethal weapon in the area and lobbing a few 2000 pounders in downtown jakarta would have reigned in their murderous and raping ways.


When we invaded (eventually) Timor all we had to do park a few Pigs at Tindal to let the grubs know we meant business and to not even think about launching any sort of attack on our people.


All we proved before that was that we were more cowardly than the muslims, unwilling to support our neighbours when they needed us most. Something we still continue to do.  Angry Angry Angry
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