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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 37678 Gender:	Solar power Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:03pm I find it hard to get my head around this stuff, but this assisted: Link. Seems to be foreshadowing the day when we all largely come off the grid, and simply have our own solar panels pumping power directly into our own batteries at the home. Yes?
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20223 Gordon Gender:	Re: Solar power Reply #1 - Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:04pm How long an extension cord would I need to power an electric hovercar?
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RightSaidFred

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Re: Solar power
Reply #2 - Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:21pm

Aussie wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:03pm:

I find it hard to get my head around this stuff, but this assisted:

Link.

Seems to be foreshadowing the day when we all largely come off the grid, and simply have our own solar panels pumping power directly into our own batteries at the home.

Yes?

Its typical shallow analysis you see from the ABC but yes the popularity of solar is driven by artificial cost savings which will disappear when there is an over supply during peak part of the day. This is slowly addressed by battery solutions which are not cheap and not particularly clean go visit a factory that makes batteries and you will understand. The Tesla Wall starts at about 13-15K upwards depending on the capacity you want. I am looking at selling up in 5 years so which ever way you look at it the ROI is not there in 5 years so its not for me and if are a rabid greenie type at least educate yourself on the environmental impact of making a battery and disposing of it in about 10 years.

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Gordon

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Re: Solar power
Reply #3 - Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:28pm

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:21pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:03pm:

I find it hard to get my head around this stuff, but this assisted:

Link.

Seems to be foreshadowing the day when we all largely come off the grid, and simply have our own solar panels pumping power directly into our own batteries at the home.

Yes?

Its typical shallow analysis you see from the ABC but yes the popularity of solar is driven by artificial cost savings which will disappear when there is an over supply during peak part of the day. This is slowly addressed by battery solutions which are not cheap and not particularly clean go visit a factory that makes batteries and you will understand. The Tesla Wall starts at about 13-15K upwards depending on the capacity you want. I am looking at selling up in 5 years so which ever way you look at it the ROI is not there in 5 years so its not for me and if are a rabid greenie type at least educate yourself on the environmental impact of making a battery and disposing of it in about 10 years.

I don't think much of batteries either but I like the idea of rooftop solar with a centralised buffer system, such as pumped hydro.

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RightSaidFred

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Re: Solar power
Reply #4 - Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:40pm

Gordon wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:28pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:21pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 2:03pm:

I find it hard to get my head around this stuff, but this assisted:

Link.

Seems to be foreshadowing the day when we all largely come off the grid, and simply have our own solar panels pumping power directly into our own batteries at the home.

Yes?

Its typical shallow analysis you see from the ABC but yes the popularity of solar is driven by artificial cost savings which will disappear when there is an over supply during peak part of the day. This is slowly addressed by battery solutions which are not cheap and not particularly clean go visit a factory that makes batteries and you will understand. The Tesla Wall starts at about 13-15K upwards depending on the capacity you want. I am looking at selling up in 5 years so which ever way you look at it the ROI is not there in 5 years so its not for me and if are a rabid greenie type at least educate yourself on the environmental impact of making a battery and disposing of it in about 10 years.

I don't think much of batteries either but I like the idea of rooftop solar with a centralised buffer system, such as pumped hydro.

I assume you are referring to using excess energy to pump water into a hydro dam ?

What I see as the big failure in such conversation especially with rabid greenies is looking at the whole energy equation..... do that properly then you don't need a debate the numbers will give you the answer.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Solar power Reply #5 - Mar 7^th, 2018 at 8:42pm This is why we should have carbon taxes instead. The government is absolutely hopeless when it tries to interfere directly with MRET's, subsidies etc. They are choosing the most expensive mechanisms available to reduce GHG emissions.
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Its time Gold Member Offline Boot libs out Posts: 25639 Gender:	Re: Solar power Reply #6 - Mar 7^th, 2018 at 9:49pm They want to f with a lobby that makes up 20% of the population and they're in for a blue , this is private enterprise crying because they're not extorting as many consumers and it's hurting their bottom line , probably after they were gifted the taxpayers infrastructure for next to nothing
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RightSaidFred

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Re: Solar power
Reply #7 - Mar 8^th, 2018 at 6:20am

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

This is why we should have carbon taxes instead. The government is absolutely hopeless when it tries to interfere directly with MRET's, subsidies etc. They are choosing the most expensive mechanisms available to reduce GHG emissions.

I disagree entirely as a carbon tax is just passed on as a revenue raiser not serious tax. Also it just shifts the problem offshore.

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freediver

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Re: Solar power
Reply #8 - Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:27pm

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 6:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

This is why we should have carbon taxes instead. The government is absolutely hopeless when it tries to interfere directly with MRET's, subsidies etc. They are choosing the most expensive mechanisms available to reduce GHG emissions.

I disagree entirely as a carbon tax is just passed on as a revenue raiser not serious tax. Also it just shifts the problem offshore.

It is not just passed on. Are you trying to turn conventional economics on it's head?

Also, do MRETs or any other mechanism shift the problem offshore to a lesser extent?

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RightSaidFred

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Re: Solar power
Reply #9 - Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:43pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:27pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 6:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

This is why we should have carbon taxes instead. The government is absolutely hopeless when it tries to interfere directly with MRET's, subsidies etc. They are choosing the most expensive mechanisms available to reduce GHG emissions.

I disagree entirely as a carbon tax is just passed on as a revenue raiser not serious tax. Also it just shifts the problem offshore.

It is not just passed on. Are you trying to turn conventional economics on it's head?

Also, do MRETs or any other mechanism shift the problem offshore to a lesser extent?

Not at all the tax passed on to the end user and more manufacturing moves off shore with net benefit of any kind.

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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 15914 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: Solar power Reply #10 - Mar 9^th, 2018 at 12:40am *This Topic was moved here from General Board* by Setanta.**
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freediver

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Re: Solar power
Reply #11 - Mar 10^th, 2018 at 8:00am

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:43pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:27pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 6:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

This is why we should have carbon taxes instead. The government is absolutely hopeless when it tries to interfere directly with MRET's, subsidies etc. They are choosing the most expensive mechanisms available to reduce GHG emissions.

I disagree entirely as a carbon tax is just passed on as a revenue raiser not serious tax. Also it just shifts the problem offshore.

It is not just passed on. Are you trying to turn conventional economics on it's head?

Also, do MRETs or any other mechanism shift the problem offshore to a lesser extent?

Not at all the tax passed on to the end user and more manufacturing moves off shore with net benefit of any kind.

So only a tax causes high polluting industries to move offshore?

Do you realise that an MRET could cause electricity prices to rise by more than under a tax?

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RightSaidFred

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Re: Solar power
Reply #12 - Mar 10^th, 2018 at 8:28am

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2018 at 8:00am:

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:43pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:27pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 6:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

This is why we should have carbon taxes instead. The government is absolutely hopeless when it tries to interfere directly with MRET's, subsidies etc. They are choosing the most expensive mechanisms available to reduce GHG emissions.

I disagree entirely as a carbon tax is just passed on as a revenue raiser not serious tax. Also it just shifts the problem offshore.

It is not just passed on. Are you trying to turn conventional economics on it's head?

Also, do MRETs or any other mechanism shift the problem offshore to a lesser extent?

Not at all the tax passed on to the end user and more manufacturing moves off shore with net benefit of any kind.

So only a tax causes high polluting industries to move offshore?

Do you realise that an MRET could cause electricity prices to rise by more than under a tax?

They are your words you need to explain them, looks like pure BS good luck with that

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freediver

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Re: Solar power
Reply #13 - Mar 10^th, 2018 at 8:36am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economists%27_Statement_on_Climate_Change

Economists' Statement on Climate Change

The Economists' Statement on Climate Change was published in 1997,[1][2] prior to the Kyoto Protocol negotiated that same year, to promote market-based solutions to climate change. It was signed by more than 2,600 economists,[3] including 18 Nobel Prize laureates, and remains the largest public statement in the history of the economics profession.

Economic studies have found that there are many potential policies to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions for which the total benefits outweigh the total costs. For the United States in particular, sound economic analysis shows that there are policy options that would slow climate change without harming American living standards, and that these measures may in fact improve U.S. productivity in the long run.

The most efficient approach to slowing climate change is through market-based policies. In order for the world to achieve its climatic objectives at minimum cost, a cooperative approach among nations is required – such as an international emissions trading agreement. The United States and other nations can most efficiently implement their climate policies through market mechanisms, such as carbon taxes or the auction of emissions permits. The revenues generated from such policies can effectively be used to reduce the deficit or to lower existing taxes.

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Solar power Reply #14 - Mar 10^th, 2018 at 8:58am Even though solar power installers talk about power export tariffs to sell their product, the 41cent KWH is long gone.
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