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Thorium power (Read 84608 times)
Bobby.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #90 - Mar 31st, 2019 at 3:59am
 
Thorium Disadvantages?
It seems that there are few.

The molten fluoride salt only makes heat when it is inside
the graphite reactor assembly because only the slow
neutrons caused by the graphite will cause a nuclear reaction.
If there's a fault the molten salt is drained away into a tank
where it is safe & will cool down.
Not only that - the Thorium reactor can only continue if the
molten salt is constantly chemically cleaned of pollutants
which stop the reaction.
In short - a molten salt Thorium reaction is walk away safe
unlike a Uranium reactor which is at 70 atmospheres of pressure,
surrounded by water  & will explode if
all the cooling systems fail as in Chernobyl & Fukushima.





Gordon McDowell
Published on Aug 6, 2017

Uranium-233 is a fissile isotope of uranium that is bred from thorium-232 as part of the thorium fuel cycle. Uranium-233 was investigated for use in nuclear weapons. Uranium-233 is produced by the neutron irradiation of thorium-232. Thorium-232 absorbs a neutron, becomes thorium-233, then quickly decays into protactinium-233. Protactinium-233 has a half-life of 27 days and before decaying into uranium-233.

This protactinium has a large cross-section and can absorb neutrons needed to sustain fission. Because uranium-233 releases so few neutrons in thermal-spectrum, and because 2 neutrons are needed to sustain a chain reaction, existence of protactinium would stop fission.

Protactinium-233 is a challenge unique to thorium reactors.

Low breeding ratio is a challenge unique to breeder reactors fueled by thorium, which operate in thermal-spectrum.

The 5,000 tpy figure of Thorium assumes a 50,000 tpy Rare Earths facility that primarily utilizes monazite as its feed-stock.

Thorium is a companion element to Monazite.  Monazite runs at +50% REE and about 7% Th.  So if you processed 50,000 tons of monazite you would get about 3,500 tpy of Th.  However, monazite would not be the only feed-stock. You would use many other mineralizations. like apatite running at 3% REE and .002% Th (but with lots of heavy REE).  So it would be a mix and tend toward the 5,000 tpy range.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #91 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 6:17am
 
Here's a good beginners video on Uranium.

How to enrich Uranium - Periodic Table of Videos.




U235 is fissionable.
Seems like that with more neutrons the U238 is better stabilised then U235.
The atomic number of Uranium is 92 which means there are 92 protons.
U238 has 146 neutrons and U235 has 143 neutrons.

Uranium 238. ... U is a fissionable isotope, but is not a fissile isotope. 238. U is not capable of undergoing fission reaction after absorbing thermal neutron, on the other hand 238U can be fissioned by fast neutron with energy higher than >1MeV.

What elements can undergo fission?
Several heavy elements, such as uranium, thorium, and plutonium, undergo both spontaneous fission, a form of radioactive decay and induced fission, a form of nuclear reaction.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #92 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:35pm
 
juliar wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
The intellectually handicapped Tweedledee's feeble mind is confused. Typical Greeny trying to turn it all into some childish personal attack.


Preacher Bobby,

You are probably correct but you cannot ignore the wealth of FACTS working against the wide spread take up of Thorium which has a lot of things going against it as the several relevant articles I have found attest.

And your thread is full of doubts and negativity and not a lot of actual factual info.

Developers are still trying but it will be many moons before thorium reactors become common place. India is hellbent on them as India has a lot of thorium and little uranium.

And even the Netherlands are having a go with little practical design success so far.



New Molten Salt Thorium Reactor Powers Up for First Time in Decades
By Ryan Whitwam on August 28, 2017 at 1:30 pm 228 Comments

https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/thorium-640x353.jpg

Nuclear power was headed for something of a resurgence a few years back, but then the 2011 meltdown at Japan’s Fukushima reactor happened. Governments and investors around the world got cold feet, but there’s now renewed interest in a type of nuclear power that’s potentially much safer. A team from the Nuclear Research and Consultancy Group (NRG) the Netherlands has built the first molten salt reactor powered by thorium in decades.

There are several basic facts of nuclear power that have made it a tough sell around the world. For one, the uranium needed for nuclear power plants is rare and expensive. The uranium used in power plants can also be turned into weapons-grade material, requiring tight regulation. The other waste byproducts of nuclear energy are less useful, but still extremely dangerous. We don’t even know what to do with all that waste yet. Lastly, a nuclear power plant, no matter how well designed, could experience meltdown under certain circumstances.

You need different fissile material if you’re going to change any of that, and now we come to thorium (atomic number 90). Unlike uranium, thorium is abundant, and it’s not nearly as dangerous. Enrichment is not necessary, and thus it’s extremely difficult to create nuclear weapons with a thorium-based reactor. Most importantly, meltdowns aren’t possible with thorium reactors because the reaction is not self-sustaining.

That last safety advantage is also the main drawback of thorium. You need a little uranium and a neutron source to get the reaction kickstarted. Oak Ridge National Laboratory ran molten salt thorium reactor experiments from the 1960s until 1976. Now, the European team is giving it another shot.


https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/thorium-salt.png
Pure thorium salt being loaded into a sample container.

When bombarded by neutrons, thorium becomes radioactive uranium-233, which is shorter-lived and less dangerous than the uranium-235 used in conventional reactors. The molten salt design being developed at NRG is known as the Salt Irradiation Experiment (SALIENT). This radioactive slurry could potentially reach very high temperatures, which translates to a lot of energy generation. However, the molten salt isn’t just the fuel; it’s the coolant as well.

There are still several problems that need solving before NRG’s thorium reactor designs will be scaled up to industrial levels. While the waste is safer, scientists still need to figure out how much of it there will be and what can be done with it. The environment inside a molten salt reactor is also extremely corrosive. So, some creative materials might be needed. If it works, we could generate more power without pumping more carbon into the atmosphere — a win for everyone.


https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/254692-new-molten-salt-thorium-reactor-first...


Post taken from here:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1554606310/40#40

So - JuLiar admits that Thorium is the answer?
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Bobby.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #93 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:37pm
 
Some more from Juliar,


juliar wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:37pm:
Thorium initially seems fantastic but the gloss soon wears off in actual attempts at producing a practical design.



THORIUM VS. MOLTEN SALT REACTOR
MARKET INTELLIGENCE | 12/18/2018 | BY CANON BRYAN

To a limited group of technophiles and nuclear technology enthusiasts, thorium has become a unicorn. But does thorium really represent nuclear innovation?

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, the scientists at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in the USA developed the Molten Salt Reactor design – a liquid salt fueled and cooled nuclear reactor system. They designed it, they prototyped it, and they operated it. The experiment was called the Molten Salt Reactor Experiment, or MSRE. The MSRE used a thorium fuel cycle.  It used a lithium beryllium fluoride coolant salt mixture, called FLiBe. It used a graphite moderator. It used a special material called Hastelloy N – a nickel alloy developed specifically to withstand the harsh environment.

The experiment was a great success. It proved that this liquid fuel system could facilitate nuclear fission, and that it was tremendously stable, and easy to operate. Dick Engel, the project manager, even called it “boring” because the engineers had virtually nothing to do while it operated.

At the rudiments of the technology lay the liquid fuel. Liquid nuclear fuel-coolant, the MSRE discovered, was a much more efficient mechanism for capturing the immense heat from fission than solid fuel/water coolant. Salt coolant was a much more versatile coolant, with a huge thermal range, compared to a water coolant, and capable of storing and easily conveying that immense heat from fission.

The thorium-232/uranium-233 fuel cycle that was used in the MSRE was a departure from the uranium-235/uranium-238/plutonium-239 fuel cycle that was being used in the Light Water Reactor design, also invented by the Americans. The LWR was being used in the US Navy submarine program, and by the mid-1950s, started to be used in commercial power plants. Thorium, it was projected, could have some advantages over uranium, particularly in a liquid fuel application.

In order to make thorium fuel, Th232 must either be blended with U235 or Pu239, or it must be bombarded with neutrons to make a supply of U233, which is also fissile. The Th232 and U233 is then blended to create a fuel that is capable of achieving criticality. Since the dawn of the atomic age, there have been a small handful of commercial applications of a thorium fuel cycle.

In order to make commercial nuclear fuel, U235, which is about 0.7% of naturally-occurring uranium, must be concentrated to between 3% and 5% of the uranium fuel element. This is not so easily achieved either, but there is a multi-decade legacy of uranium enrichment. The fuel cycle is well-understood by regulators, operators and the supply chain.

What are the advantages of thorium?

Thorium is abundant. That is certainly an advantage it has over uranium. It is abundant and broadly geographically dispersed and easy to extract from nature. Unlike uranium, thorium is found in great concentrations right on the surface of the earth, most commonly, in black sand beaches.

Thorium is not fissile, which means that thorium by itself could never possibly be weaponized. However, because it is not fissile, it means that thorium always requires fissile material to make fuel, and that creates new proliferation risks.

This is where the actual advantages of thorium end. All the other advantages commonly attributed to thorium are actually advantages of a Molten Salt Reactor – not of thorium itself. These virtues became conflated with the Molten Salt Reactor design. Because of the fact that thorium fuel was used, enthusiasts rediscovering this technology 40 years later have misplaced the rudiments of the innovation.

Molten Salt Reactors have tremendous safety, waste and proliferation virtues, which translate into substantial commercial virtues.  The following is a non-exhaustive list:

Fluoride salts have an approximately 1,000C range in which they stay liquid – neither freezing nor boiling;
Fluoride salts operate naturally at high temperature, obviating the need for immense pressure in a reactor vessel;
Fluoride salts are chemically very stable and inert, eliminating the risk of chemical explosions in a reactor system;
A liquid fuel is inherently easier and cheaper to chemically process, thereby creating a pathway for total nuclear waste elimination.
There are many others. These advantages are specific to Molten Salt Reactors, and not to thorium fuel.

The thorium enthusiasts will certainly find this controversial. However, if the goal is eliminating energy poverty and pollution, one must accurately assess the source terms of nuclear innovation.  The mystical nature of thorium has served its purpose by attracting all walks of life to develop an interest in advanced nuclear technology – including myself.  Now the market must focus on the most pragmatic way of commercializing true nuclear innovation.

https://4thgeneration.energy/thorium-vs-molten-salt-reactor/
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #94 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:38pm
 
And some more:

juliar wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:52pm:
It might take another nuclear disaster to swing the spotlight onto thorium.

Or if India has a lot of success.

It is extremely unlikely to ever happen here in Australia mainly due to the very hostile intense opposition to any development here by the Lunatic Extremist Greenies.





The Thing About Thorium: Why The Better Nuclear Fuel May Not Get A Chance
Energy Source Marin Katusa Feb 16, 2012, 06:59pm

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/210x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2...
Thorium is a chemical element with the symbol ...Image via Wikipedia

The Fukushima disaster reminded us all of the dangers inherent in uranium-fueled nuclear reactors.

Fresh news this month about Tepco's continued struggle to contain and cool the fuel rods highlights just how energetic uranium fission reactions are and how challenging to control. Of course, that level of energy is exactly why we use nuclear energy – it is incredibly efficient as a source of power, and it creates very few emissions and carries a laudable safety record to boot.

This conversation – "nuclear good but uranium dangerous" – regularly leads to a very good question: what about thorium? Thorium sits two spots left of uranium on the periodic table, in the same row or series. Elements in the same series share characteristics. With uranium and thorium, the key similarity is that both can absorb neutrons and transmute into fissile elements.

That means thorium could be used to fuel nuclear reactors, just like uranium. And as proponents of the underdog fuel will happily tell you, thorium is more abundant in nature than uranium, is not fissile on its own (which means reactions can be stopped when necessary), produces waste products that are less radioactive, and generates more energy per ton.


So why on earth are we using uranium? As you may recall, research into the mechanization of nuclear reactions was initially driven not by the desire to make energy, but by the desire to make bombs. The $2 billion Manhattan Project that produced the atomic bomb sparked a worldwide surge in nuclear research, most of it funded by governments embroiled in the Cold War. And here we come to it: Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium, which is what you need to make a nuke.

How ironic. The fact that thorium reactors could not produce fuel for nuclear weapons meant the better reactor fuel got short shrift, yet today we would love to be able to clearly differentiate a country's nuclear reactors from its weapons program.

In the post-Cold War world, is there any hope for thorium? Perhaps, but don't run to your broker just yet.

The Uranium Reactor

The typical nuclear-fuel cycle starts with refined uranium ore, which is mostly U238 but contains 3% to 5% U235. Most naturally occurring uranium is U238, but this common isotope does not undergo fission – which is the process whereby the nucleus splits and releases tremendous amounts of energy. By contrast, the less-prevalent U235 is fissile. As such, to make reactor fuel we have to expend considerable energy enriching yellowcake, to boost its proportion of U235.

Once in the reactor, U235 starts splitting and releasing high-energy neutrons. The U238 does not just sit idly by, however; it transmutes into other fissile elements. When an atom of U238 absorbs a neutron, it transmutes into short-lived U239, which rapidly decays into neptunium-239 and then into plutonium-239, that lovely, weaponizable byproduct.

When the U235 content burns down to 0.3%, the fuel is spent, but it contains some very radioactive isotopes of americium, technetium, and iodine, as well as plutonium. This waste fuel is highly radioactive and the culprits – these high-mass isotopes – have half-lives of many thousands of years. As such, the waste has to be housed for up to 10,000 years, cloistered from the environment and from anyone who might want to get at the plutonium for nefarious reasons.

The Thing about Thorium

Thorium's advantages start from the moment it is mined and purified, in that all but a trace of naturally occurring thorium is Th232, the isotope useful in nuclear reactors. That's a heck of a lot better than the 3% to 5% of uranium that comes in the form we need.

Then there's the safety side of thorium reactions. Unlike U235, thorium is not fissile. That means no matter how many thorium nuclei you pack together, they will not on their own start splitting apart and exploding. If you want to make thorium nuclei split apart, though, it's easy: you simply start throwing neutrons at them. Then, when you need the reaction to stop, simply turn off the source of neutrons and the whole process shuts down, simple as pie.

More here

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/02/16/the-thing-about-thorium-why...

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Re: Thorium power
Reply #95 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:39pm
 
JuLiar is bombarding us with a lot of information.
It would take weeks to go through and analyse it all.
I don't have time now.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #96 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:39pm
 
John Smith wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 5:23pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 5:22pm:
John Smith wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 4:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 4:17pm:
Thorium is a way to save our planet.



as long as you stick it in your backyard



Read the thread and check the evidence before mouthing off.
Thorium is safe.


so you'll have no problem with it in your backyard then  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
what about you? Happy with a coal fired power station in your backyard? Muppet.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #97 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:55pm
 
rhino wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 10:39pm:
John Smith wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 5:23pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 5:22pm:
John Smith wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 4:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 17th, 2019 at 4:17pm:
Thorium is a way to save our planet.



as long as you stick it in your backyard



Read the thread and check the evidence before mouthing off.
Thorium is safe.


so you'll have no problem with it in your backyard then  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
what about you? Happy with a coal fired power station in your backyard? Muppet.



Once it's all worked out -
Thorium reactors would be safe enough to have close to large cities.
Whereas Uranium reactors work under an enormous 70 atmospheres of pressure - and could explode at any time -
Thorium molten salt reactors work at a standard  1 atmosphere of pressure.

A Thorium nuclear reaction needs 2 things:
(1) a supply of neutrons from something which can even be normally unused nuclear waste - very handy!
A Thorium reactor eats nuclear waste for breakfast.

(2)  the Thorium needs to be close to graphite tubes - inside those tubes which slows the neutrons down & allows the reaction to take place. Take it away from the graphite tubes & the reaction stops. That's great for safety - It cannot melt down!


Thorium is our great hope for the future of mankind:
unlimited, cheap, safe energy.

Thorium is everywhere - there is plenty above ground in old mine tailings -
we don't even have to mine it -
it would be as cheap as dirt.
Uranium 235 is as expensive as platinum and just as rare.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #98 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:11pm
 
Thorium is abundant - there is heaps of it in your backyard.

There is 26 grams of thorium in each cubic meter of the average crust of the Earth.

https://energyfromthorium.com/cubic-meter/

The value of the energy produced by the thorium in an average cubic meter of the Earth’s crust in a LFTR is worth ($11000 to $17000)/(630) = 17 to 27 cubic meters of Texas light sweet crude.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #99 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:36pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:48am:
dear Unforgiven,
I suggest you watch the entire video.
It actually promotes Thorium.

forgiven

namaste
रति
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There is no magic bullet Goober, No free lunches. If it sounds to good to be true , then it is,, Tongue
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #100 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:50pm
 
The problem here is that this topic is not a discussion between people sharing an opinion, Its a bunch of no nothing peeps cutting and pasting crap off the internet , Go to a science forum if you are truly interested in having a discussion on this subject
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #101 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 4:00pm
 
BigP wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:36pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:48am:
dear Unforgiven,
I suggest you watch the entire video.
It actually promotes Thorium.

forgiven

namaste
रति
,

There is no magic bullet Bobby, No free lunches. If it sounds to good to be true , then it is,, Tongue



In this case it is a free lunch.
We can do better than cave men from 100,000 years ago
who burnt bits of wood to make fire.
Now we burn coal to make fire - not much advancement.

Thorium is there for the taking - almost free energy forever.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #102 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 4:15pm
 
Jules agreed with you for about 2 days until his masters reminded him that if thorium starts to get used they wont use fossil fuels anymore and he wont get paid... Grin Grin
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #103 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 6:46pm
 
DonDeeHippy wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 4:15pm:
Jules agreed with you for about 2 days until his masters reminded him that if thorium starts to get used they wont use fossil fuels anymore and he wont get paid... Grin Grin



You have a point -
it would turn the world's industries upside down.
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Re: Thorium power
Reply #104 - Apr 17th, 2019 at 11:20am
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 6:46pm:
DonDeeHippy wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 4:15pm:
Jules agreed with you for about 2 days until his masters reminded him that if thorium starts to get used they wont use fossil fuels anymore and he wont get paid... Grin Grin



You have a point -
it would turn the world's industries upside down.



That is an absolute croc of sh1t, The twenty minutes i put into researching it last night I will never get back, You spend to much time watching the vids that suit your argument, Its goint nowhere fast for a variety of reasons,
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