Australian Politics Forum - Muhammad as the anti-christ

freediver

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #225 - Mar 15^th, 2018 at 12:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 15^th, 2018 at 8:10am:

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 7:27pm:

The Hijra was 622. Muhammad (and his followers) did not manage to murder any Meccans in the name of Islam until raids in 624.

The first raid was less than a year after the hijra.

What did they steal in that raid Gandalf? How many innocent Meccan traders did they murder?

Now that you are aware of the basic historical facts, would you like to revisit my claim that Muhammad had very limited success with his religion until he started stealing and murdering innocent people?

Would you like to revisit the various excuses you have offered for Muhammad's career murdering innocent traders and stealing their goods?

Here is a list of them:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_and_the_Just_War_Doctrin...

Only the original Muslims who fled Mecca and were thus wronged by the Meccans took part in murdering Meccan traders and stealing their goods. Muslims will even back this up with a link to a wikipedia article clearly saying the opposite. [8][9]
Muhammad was merely taking revenge for the Meccan emigrants. [10]
Muhammad only ever killed people in self defence. [11]
Muhammad was leading a nation when he fled Mecca and a state of war thus existed from then until he started murdering Meccan traders. [12][13][14]
There must be a different definition for nation in 7th century Arabia. [15]
Muhammad was only concerned for the welfare of 'his people'. [16]
Muhammad only ever killed people to survive. [17][18]
Mecca was the only commercial centre in the area. [19]
The people of Medina were non-farmers in a farming area. [20][21]
It was the only option Muslims had for survival. [22]
Murder and bloodlust were not the 'primary' objective of the raids. [23]
Muhammad was under political pressure from his followers to take revenge. [24]
They were not allowed to trade in Mecca. [25]
Muhammad first raided Meccan traders and stole their goods within a year of fleeing Medina. [26]

Also, where did you get your "alternative facts" from?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #226 - Mar 15^th, 2018 at 1:41pm

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2018 at 12:32pm:

Now that you are aware of the basic historical facts, would you like to revisit my claim that Muhammad had very limited success with his religion until he started stealing and murdering innocent people?

"very limited success with his religion" - is just waffle that could mean anything and nothing. It would be reasonable to intepret the conversion of the entire aws and khasraj tribes into Islam before any caravan raid, before any blood was spilled (under Muhammad) - as something other than "very limited success". But as I said, the phrase is deliberately meaningless, so you can twist it into whatever meaning you wants. Thats how FD manages the skillful juggling act of making up crap all along the way, while simultaneously lecturing on "basic historical facts".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47350 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #227 - Mar 15^th, 2018 at 6:53pm Quote: "very limited success with his religion" - is just waffle that could mean anything and nothing. Fortunately, we now have an exact number with which to quanitify it. Quote: It would be reasonable to intepret the conversion of the entire aws and khasraj tribes More mindless collectives eh?
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92241 Gender:	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #228 - Mar 15^th, 2018 at 8:27pm freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2018 at 6:53pm: Quote: "very limited success with his religion" - is just waffle that could mean anything and nothing. Fortunately, we now have an exact number with which to quanitify it. 800 at last count. So unfair.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #229 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 11:09am

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2018 at 6:53pm:

Quote:

"very limited success with his religion" - is just waffle that could mean anything and nothing.

Fortunately, we now have an exact number with which to quanitify it.

Is that so FD? Well don't be shy, lets have it - what is this "exact number" of muslims before any caravan attack, or any other blood was spilled. Remembering to include the entire aws and khasraj tribes (and possibly others)

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47350 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #230 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 11:34am 45
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92241 Gender:	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #231 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 11:42am freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2018 at 11:34am: 45 Sounds like a mindless collective to me. You?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #232 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 3:21pm

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2018 at 11:34am:

45

Incorrect FD, that is the number of male (excluding women and children) muslims who took part in the Hijra.

The leader of the Aws, Sa’ad ibn Muadh converted when he was sent as part of a delegation to meet Muhammad in Mecca. This was even before the hijra. Most of the members of the Aws and Khazraj converted shortly after, and became protectors of the emigrants when they arrived. The ansar were referred in the treaty of Medina as being part of "one nation/community with the believers" This all happened well before any caravan raid, or any other murdering/robbing.

Care to have another crack at the numbers?

You can also try another quip about "actual facts" too if you like.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #233 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 5:20pm

Quote:

Incorrect FD, that is the number of male (excluding women and children) muslims who took part in the Hijra

.

Where did you get this from?

Quote:

The leader of the Aws, Sa’ad ibn Muadh converted when he was sent as part of a delegation to meet Muhammad in Mecca. This was even before the hijra. Most of the members of the Aws and Khazraj converted shortly after, and became protectors of the emigrants when they arrived. The ansar were referred in the treaty of Medina as being part of "one nation/community with the believers" This all happened well before any caravan raid, or any other murdering/robbing.

How big was this tribe? If they were so good at protecting the emigrants, why were they so destitute two years later that they had to start murdering innocent traders and stealing their goods to survive?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #234 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 7:14pm

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

If they were so good at protecting the emigrants, why were they so destitute two years later that they had to start murdering innocent traders and stealing their goods to survive?

Stay focused FD, we're focusing on the veracity of your claim that there were precisely 45 muslims at the time of the first caravan raid. How's it looking do you reckon? There was a delegation of 75 Aws and Khasraj alone who came to meet the prophet in 622 while he was still in Mecca - to reaffim their commitment to taking him in and protecting him.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegira

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2018 at 7:31pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47350 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #235 - Mar 17^th, 2018 at 9:57am Quote: Incorrect FD, that is the number of male (excluding women and children) muslims who took part in the Hijra Where did you get this from?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #236 - Mar 21^st, 2018 at 2:15pm I assumed you were talking about the number of male emigrants. I believe the number was around 50, but I could be wrong. Where did you get 45 from? You didn't actually say. The point is, there were a lot more than 45 muslims at the time of the first caravan raid - agreed?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47350 At my desk.	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #237 - Mar 21^st, 2018 at 6:40pm I gave a link and quote the first time I gave you the number Gandalf. It was very recent. And no I do not agree. You were recently demanding I go and find all this info for you.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #238 - Mar 22^nd, 2018 at 8:53am

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2018 at 6:40pm:

I gave a link and quote the first time I gave you the number Gandalf. It was very recent.

And no I do not agree. You were recently demanding I go and find all this info for you.

It is not correct, because we know many of the Aws and Kazhraj had already converted - which obviously takes the total number at the time of the first raid to more than 45. 75 of them met with the prophet even before he emigrated to reaffirm their support for him:

Quote:

The next year, at the pilgrimage of 622, a delegation of around 75 Muslims of the Banu Aws and Khazraj from Medina came, and in addition to restating the formal promises, they also assured Muhammad of their full support and protection if the latter would migrate to their land. They invited him to come to Medina as an arbitrator to reconcile among the hostile tribes.[18] This is known as the "second pledge at al-Aqabah",[19][20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegira

That was 622 FD, even before the hijra. The first caravan raid was in 623. Can you explain exactly how you are not wrong to state that the muslim population at the time of the first caravan raid was 45 (the emigrants and no one else)?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #239 - Mar 22^nd, 2018 at 4:04pm

allah was the minister for immigration back in those days;

Quote:

qur'an 2.218: Indeed, those who have believed and those who have emigrated and fought in the cause of Allah - those expect the mercy of Allah . And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

qur'an 3.195: And their Lord responded to them, "Never will I allow to be lost the work of [any] worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another. So those who emigrated or were evicted from their homes or were harmed in My cause or fought or were killed - I will surely remove from them their misdeeds, and I will surely admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow as reward from Allah , and Allah has with Him the best reward."

qur'an 4.100: And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many [alternative] locations and abundance. And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him - his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah . And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

qur'an 8.72: Indeed, those who have believed and emigrated and fought with their wealth and lives in the cause of Allah and those who gave shelter and aided - they are allies of one another. But those who believed and did not emigrate - for you there is no guardianship of them until they emigrate. And if they seek help of you for the religion, then you must help, except against a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty. And Allah is Seeing of what you do.

qur'an 8.74: But those who have believed and emigrated and fought in the cause of Allah and those who gave shelter and aided - it is they who are the believers, truly. For them is forgiveness and noble provision.

qur'an 8.75: And those who believed after [the initial emigration] and emigrated and fought with you - they are of you. But those of [blood] relationship are more entitled [to inheritance] in the decree of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Knowing of all things.

qur'an 9.20:The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives are greater in rank in the sight of Allah . And it is those who are the attainers [of success].

qur'an 22.58: And those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision. And indeed, it is Allah who is the best of providers.

emigrate and fight in the cause of allah

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