Australian Politics Forum - Muhammad as the anti-christ

polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #15 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:22pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:04pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 12:17pm:

You're missing the point, Gandalf. It wasn't that Jesus believed it was impossible; he entertained the idea of rebelling against Rome. The point is that HE DIDN'T CHOOSE TO DO SO.

Strange, you seem to dismiss the obvious conclusion to be drawn - that he didn't choose to because he knew it was suicide - not just for him, but for his entire people.

That didn't stop other so-called Jewish Messiah pretenders such as Bar Kokbar. That Jesus didn't want to sacrifice the lives of his disciples shows incredible compassion.

Muhammad had no such compunction; he said people out to fight and kill.

Sure its compassionate - its also a smart choice for survival.

The key difference here, which I'm not sure why you don't want to acknowledge, is that Muhammad was in a position to fight and win - while Jesus was not. Ignoring all your lofty notions of spirituality and compassion - this alone is adequate in explaining the different approaches does it not? Why do you bother going on your moral high horse about it? I mean, assuming you don't buy into the whole destiny and "God instructed me to do it" stuff.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bobby.

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #16 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:25pm

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 6:28am:

This is an interesting idea from Gandalf:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Debating Hitler's genocide can land you in gaol in many western countries. That and the fact that very few people, and certainly no powerful vested interests, disagree that Hitler was awful. On the other hand, I acknowledge there are quite a few - and very (disproportionately) vocal mob of Islamaphobes whose agenda is to make Muhammad out to be the anti-christ.

I have not actually seen anyone use this term to describe Muhammad before, but I think it is both fair and accurate, especially when it comes to the use of violence to promote your ideology. You would struggle to find a single leader, either religious or political, who is to the left of Jesus on this. There are not many that are to the right of Muhammad, and if your metric is their effectiveness in encouraging people to use violence to spread their ideology, there are none.

Muhammad and Jesus are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Quran is full of explicit instructions to use violence to impose Islam on people, and Muhammad was very effective at motivating people to follow those instructions.

Muhammad is literally the anti-christ. Just to be fair, I should also acknowledge that this makes Jesus the anti-Muhammad. You can have that one for free Gandalf. Give it to the people who coined the phrase Islamophobe and see if they run with it.

It's very strange as I saw a TV show once about Muhammad.

Apparently in his younger days he toured the Middle East preaching the gospel of Jesus &
that's why Jesus is mentioned so many times in the Koran.
He seems that Muhammad started out as a Christian.

( not only that - all the barbaric laws in the Koran were lifted straight out of the Old Testament from the Jews)

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Auggie

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #17 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:04pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 12:17pm:

You're missing the point, Gandalf. It wasn't that Jesus believed it was impossible; he entertained the idea of rebelling against Rome. The point is that HE DIDN'T CHOOSE TO DO SO.

Strange, you seem to dismiss the obvious conclusion to be drawn - that he didn't choose to because he knew it was suicide - not just for him, but for his entire people.

That didn't stop other so-called Jewish Messiah pretenders such as Bar Kokbar. That Jesus didn't want to sacrifice the lives of his disciples shows incredible compassion.

Muhammad had no such compunction; he said people out to fight and kill.

Sure its compassionate - its also a smart choice for survival.

He didn't survive; he died on the cross.

The key difference here, which I'm not sure why you don't want to acknowledge, is that Muhammad was in a position to fight and win - while Jesus was not. Ignoring all your lofty notions of spirituality and compassion - this alone explains the different approaches does it not? I mean, assuming you don't buy into the whole destiny and "God instructed me to do it" stuff.

The point is that even if he were in such a position he should've never engaged in conflict and killing. When he was in Mecca and preaching his message peacefully he should've continued that message.
Even if the powers-at-be were after him (which appears very dubious) he should've made the choice to surrender himself and die, rather than galvanising the community to fight with him. Sure, Islam might not have spread, but people's lives would've been saved.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #18 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:33pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:16pm:

He never conducted pre-emptive warfare in order to eliminate a 'perceived' threat?

Not that I'm aware of. Some historians argue his northern campaign against the Byzantiums shortly before his death was a pre-emptive attack - however there are sources that claim that the Byzantiums attacked first. FD of course will point to the caravan raids - but I would argue that was a legitimate campaign in a war that was already started when Muhammad's followers were evicted from their homes (the incident that FD strangely never wants to mention).

Other than that, I believe every military action taken by Muhammad was either in response to a direct military attack against him or his alles - or a violation of a treaty.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #19 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:35pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 6:28am:

This is an interesting idea from Gandalf:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Debating Hitler's genocide can land you in gaol in many western countries. That and the fact that very few people, and certainly no powerful vested interests, disagree that Hitler was awful. On the other hand, I acknowledge there are quite a few - and very (disproportionately) vocal mob of Islamaphobes whose agenda is to make Muhammad out to be the anti-christ.

I have not actually seen anyone use this term to describe Muhammad before, but I think it is both fair and accurate, especially when it comes to the use of violence to promote your ideology. You would struggle to find a single leader, either religious or political, who is to the left of Jesus on this. There are not many that are to the right of Muhammad, and if your metric is their effectiveness in encouraging people to use violence to spread their ideology, there are none.

Muhammad and Jesus are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Quran is full of explicit instructions to use violence to impose Islam on people, and Muhammad was very effective at motivating people to follow those instructions.

Muhammad is literally the anti-christ. Just to be fair, I should also acknowledge that this makes Jesus the anti-Muhammad. You can have that one for free Gandalf. Give it to the people who coined the phrase Islamophobe and see if they run with it.

It's very strange as I saw a TV show once about Muhammad.

Apparently in his younger days he toured the Middle East preaching the gospel of Jesus &
that's why Jesus is mentioned so many times in the Koran.
He seems that Muhammad started out as a Christian.

( not only that - all the barbaric laws in the Koran were lifted straight out of the Old Testament from the Jews)

You are mistaken. Muhammad didn't preach anything in his 'younger days'.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bobby.

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #20 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 6:28am:

This is an interesting idea from Gandalf:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Debating Hitler's genocide can land you in gaol in many western countries. That and the fact that very few people, and certainly no powerful vested interests, disagree that Hitler was awful. On the other hand, I acknowledge there are quite a few - and very (disproportionately) vocal mob of Islamaphobes whose agenda is to make Muhammad out to be the anti-christ.

I have not actually seen anyone use this term to describe Muhammad before, but I think it is both fair and accurate, especially when it comes to the use of violence to promote your ideology. You would struggle to find a single leader, either religious or political, who is to the left of Jesus on this. There are not many that are to the right of Muhammad, and if your metric is their effectiveness in encouraging people to use violence to spread their ideology, there are none.

Muhammad and Jesus are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Quran is full of explicit instructions to use violence to impose Islam on people, and Muhammad was very effective at motivating people to follow those instructions.

Muhammad is literally the anti-christ. Just to be fair, I should also acknowledge that this makes Jesus the anti-Muhammad. You can have that one for free Gandalf. Give it to the people who coined the phrase Islamophobe and see if they run with it.

It's very strange as I saw a TV show once about Muhammad.

Apparently in his younger days he toured the Middle East preaching the gospel of Jesus &
that's why Jesus is mentioned so many times in the Koran.
He seems that Muhammad started out as a Christian.

( not only that - all the barbaric laws in the Koran were lifted straight out of the Old Testament from the Jews)

You are mistaken. Muhammad didn't preach anything in his 'younger days'.

I wish you could see the doco - it was a 4 part series from memory.
It was maybe 5 to 10 years ago?

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Auggie

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #21 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:33pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:16pm:

He never conducted pre-emptive warfare in order to eliminate a 'perceived' threat?

Not that I'm aware of. Some historians argue his northern campaign against the Byzantiums shortly before his death was a pre-emptive attack - however there are sources that claim that the Byzantiums attacked first. FD of course will point to the caravan raids - but I would argue that was a legitimate campaign in a war that was already started when Muhammad's followers were evicted from their homes (the incident that FD strangely never wants to mention).

Other than that, I believe every military action taken by Muhammad was either in response to a direct military attack against him or his alles - or a violation of a treaty.

Ok, assuming that you are correct, let's move on to another point.

Why didn't Muhammad give himself up and surrender to the enemy instead of trying to preserve his religion?

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The Progressive President

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ Reply #22 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:45pm Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:38pm: Why didn't Muhammad give himself up and surrender to the enemy instead of trying to preserve his religion? Because that makes no sense at all. Why would you even ask that? From both a religious and non-religious point of view it makes absolutely no sense.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #23 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:46pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:37pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 6:28am:

This is an interesting idea from Gandalf:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Debating Hitler's genocide can land you in gaol in many western countries. That and the fact that very few people, and certainly no powerful vested interests, disagree that Hitler was awful. On the other hand, I acknowledge there are quite a few - and very (disproportionately) vocal mob of Islamaphobes whose agenda is to make Muhammad out to be the anti-christ.

I have not actually seen anyone use this term to describe Muhammad before, but I think it is both fair and accurate, especially when it comes to the use of violence to promote your ideology. You would struggle to find a single leader, either religious or political, who is to the left of Jesus on this. There are not many that are to the right of Muhammad, and if your metric is their effectiveness in encouraging people to use violence to spread their ideology, there are none.

Muhammad and Jesus are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Quran is full of explicit instructions to use violence to impose Islam on people, and Muhammad was very effective at motivating people to follow those instructions.

Muhammad is literally the anti-christ. Just to be fair, I should also acknowledge that this makes Jesus the anti-Muhammad. You can have that one for free Gandalf. Give it to the people who coined the phrase Islamophobe and see if they run with it.

It's very strange as I saw a TV show once about Muhammad.

Apparently in his younger days he toured the Middle East preaching the gospel of Jesus &
that's why Jesus is mentioned so many times in the Koran.
He seems that Muhammad started out as a Christian.

( not only that - all the barbaric laws in the Koran were lifted straight out of the Old Testament from the Jews)

You are mistaken. Muhammad didn't preach anything in his 'younger days'.

I wish you could see the doco - it was a 4 part series from memory.
It was maybe 5 to 10 years ago?

And you've clearly forgotten what was said in it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Auggie

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #24 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:38pm:

Why didn't Muhammad give himself up and surrender to the enemy instead of trying to preserve his religion?

Because that makes no sense at all.

Why would you even ask that? From both a religious and non-religious point of view it makes absolutely no sense.

Being spiritual, Gandalf, is acting in accordance with what is NOT human nature. Do you think it's human nature for a person to consciously take steps which lead to his/her torture and death?

Preserving a state and community is political, not spiritual.

Spirituality is about an evolution from the animal to the human - which is complete divinity at the most extreme end. Acting like a homo sapien isn't spiritual. Acting against the natural inclinations of a homo sapien is spiritual because it's closer to God.

Muhammad never acted as an anti-animal.

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Bobby.

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #25 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:46pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:37pm:

I wish you could see the doco - it was a 4 part series from memory.
It was maybe 5 to 10 years ago?

And you've clearly forgotten what was said in it.

No I haven't.

How amazing is this:

in the times soon after Muhammad -

all 3 Abrahamic religions gathered at the same churches

the Muslims on Friday
the Jews on Saturday
the Christians on Sunday.

It was only later that they started to kill each other
and make their own holy places.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #26 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 2:26pm

I'm not sure why you are hell-bent on the idea that sacrificing yourself per se is necessarily a spiritual act. Surely a spiritual act must have some meaning vis-a-vis bringing you closer to God. Now you might say handing himself in and sacrificing himself would be 'spiritual' because it would save lives - but I would say it would likely result in the killing of his entire community - not to mention the death of his message and religion. Particularly given the fact that the revelation was not complete, and continued right up until the rest of Muhammad's life. A muslim would doubtless say that its not very 'spiritual' to cut short the revelation of the Quran mid-way through, and finish off the muslim community before it ever really began. While I'm a bit scratchy on Christian history - I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't crucified mid-way through his message.

I also don't buy the rather simplistic notion that anything done of a temporal nature - such as preserving a state and community - is some antithesis to spirituality. True, its not exactly a 'spiritual' thing to do - but doing it doesn't necessarily make you a "non-spiritual" person. Its pretty silly to insist that the only people who can be spiritual must be completely removed from the day to day monotony of the temporal world.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #27 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 2:26pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 11:38am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 9:13am:

Personally, I believe Muhammad acted and behaved as Jesus would have if Jesus was burdened with an actual state to run and under constant military attack. Who knows, if Arabia had been under the yoke of the most powerful civilization the world had ever known, Muhammad may well have been all 'don't do anything stupid' (militarily) - and 'turn the other cheek' - like Jesus was.

I mean its not like Jesus was in any position to forge any sort of successful independent state in defiance of Rome - even if he wanted to.

You simply can't analyse the two scenarios objectively without acknowledging the vastly different political realities between the two.

And indeed, the Jews were waiting for such a political leader.

Without a doubt, Moh was nicer and kinder than past Jewish leaders/prophets: Abraham, Moses, David.

FD doesn't want to talk about it.

How so? First of all, Moses didn't rape a nine-year old girl, did he?

Neither did Mohammed, Augie. He married her first. She was apparently accepting of his advances. His marriage was no different to the numerous other dynastic ones which occurred in Arabia and Europe and Asia at the time. Tsk, tsk, always remember what L.P.Hartley said. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #28 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 2:27pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 12:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 9:13am:

Personally, I believe Muhammad acted and behaved as Jesus would have if Jesus was burdened with an actual state to run and under constant military attack. Who knows, if Arabia had been under the yoke of the most powerful civilization the world had ever known, Muhammad may well have been all 'don't do anything stupid' (militarily) - and 'turn the other cheek' - like Jesus was.

I mean its not like Jesus was in any position to forge any sort of successful independent state in defiance of Rome - even if he wanted to.

You simply can't analyse the two scenarios objectively without acknowledging the vastly different political realities between the two.

You're missing the point, Gandalf. It wasn't that Jesus believed it was impossible; he entertained the idea of rebelling against Rome. The point is that HE DIDN'T CHOOSE TO DO SO. Instead, he chose to go through humiliation and torture to make his point.

This is the difference: Jesus made the CONSCIOUS choice to go to his DEATH. He acted IRRATIONALLY (in that he wasn't concerned about self-preservation. Muhammad CONSCIOUSLY chose to the things he did. He acted RATIONALLY (in that he was concerned about this self-preservation).

Which ACT DO YOU THINK WAS MORE SPIRITUAL?

Retelling myths as if they were facts, Augie? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Muhammad as the anti-christ
Reply #29 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 4:05pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 28^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

It's very strange as I saw a TV show once about Muhammad.

Apparently in his younger days he toured the Middle East preaching the gospel of Jesus &
that's why Jesus is mentioned so many times in the Koran.
He seems that Muhammad started out as a Christian.

( not only that - all the barbaric laws in the Koran were lifted straight out of the Old Testament from the Jews)

bobby,

You shouldn't believe everything that is presented to you, in a documentary, on TV.

TV documentary producers, are selling something.

In the same way that politicians are selling us something.

If we see a politician on TV, telling us things bobby, should we believe them, because it is on TV ?

Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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