Australian Politics Forum - What is a Conservative?

Mattyfisk

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #60 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:03am

Frank wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 8:35pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 8:18pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 8:01pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 7:48pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 7:33pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 9:28am:

Frank wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 10:30pm:

Gay is now normalised. You will be persecuted if you say gay 'marriage' is bollocks. It's all about normalising perversion.

You have to like it now.

Soon it will be a perversion to have kids - environmental pressures and all that. Arse banging, for it's very dead-end nature, will be valorised in about 2-3 years as the environmentally responsible relationship. You will have to bee gay to be PC.

Heteros will be branded polar-bear killers and destroyers of the Earth.

And of course all the third worlders who don't buy into any of this crap will flood in and throw all the gays off the top of tall buildings and rule for the next few centuries.
Decadence has no future.

Frank, this is where I disagree with you. There's nothing perverse about homosexuality or homosexual sex. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is no business or yours or mine.

The argument for same-sex marriage that I'm considering is that it's in the interest of the state to recognize heterosexual marriages in unique way, compared with same-sex couples. By all means, have a specific civil union partnership which confers the same rights and privileges as marriage, but just don't call it marriage.

Marriage is about heterosexual sex because that is the ONLY basis of societal survival.
Marriage is not about sex, not about love. If it was you could marry your fapping hand, your sheep, etc.

Heterosexual sex is the only bridge between generations. And so it is the only sex any society regulates. They call it marriage.

Gays cant get married because they have a dead end relationship as far generations past and future are concerned.

Gay marriage is a sinister eyewash.

Don't you think though that we're living in a post-family society anyway have been for so long now that same-sex marriage doesn't really mean anything???

Do you think we should repeal no-fault divorce or jail fathers who abandon their children?

No.

There is no post family society.

In a litigous society no fault divorce is a lie. Its excusing fault divorce.

We should not all8w people to get married unl ess they could be expected to make a go of it. No marriage if you are unamployed, no social security for unmaried mothers.

Society picks up the tab for way too many bastards, wastrels, layabouts.

We certainly pick up the tab for you, old boy. We grew here, you flew here. We're quite happy to pay for your life support. You're now one of us.

Where there's life there's hope, no?

We? You are a paki arse bandit.

I have no tab. I am a net payer, arse bandit.

I carry your perversions through my taxes. I earn too much so my sons get nothing in support while they are at uni or school. And i think this is right. We earn enought not to put our hands out.

Thats the kind of migrant you would want, you idiotic arse burglar.

But unfortunately I am blonde and blue eyed so it's bad and oppressive and slave tradie. Get some tinted swarthie welfare dependants in here, otherwise it would be wacist.

And not only that, but you add so much to our marvellous political discourse, no? Here's a few:

Correlation not causation.

Dirty little invert.

Paki Bastard.

Unflushable tjurd.

Coont.

Tinted.

Whatever would we do without you?

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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #61 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:50am

goldkam wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 10:12pm:

Your first point. A gay marriage (if passed) follows the same notions and conditions as a heterosexual marriage. So is this implying that those single heterosexual couples who are getting married are just individualising themselves and prioritising individualism. That point is up to the individual, society doesn't get to dictate that.

Surely though, society has an interest in promoting institutions that are beneficial for society, don't they? We can agree, I'm sure, that the family is the bedrock of society and is an important institution in society. I believe that families are more important than individuals, and that society should prioritize families over individual people. I think that by recognizing same-sex marriage we are diminishing the social utility of families.

This is not to say that gay people don't deserve the same rights or protections against discrimination as other people. I would be in favour of having civil unions for same-sex couples which confer the exact same rights for them as for married couples.

goldkam wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 10:12pm:

To your second point. The union between a man and woman was actually dictated by the Howard Government with little consultation with the country. Thus this view is from an older generation of Liberal Conservatives. When ever will gay marriage somehow override heterosexual marriage, it is not a competition or power struggle, it is about equality and justice.

Howard had only amended the Act to reflect its original intention. When the original Act was passed in 1961 no one at that time would've ever construed marriage to be between two couples of the same-sex. It was only when the same-sex marriage movement was beginning to take steam that an amendment was necessary.

Second, with regard to equality and justice, the recognition of a man and woman as a unique status is actually egalitarian, is it not? That marriage requires both sexes indicates the equality of the institution, and the harmony between the sexes.

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goldkam

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #62 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 7:31pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:50am:

goldkam wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 10:12pm:

Your first point. A gay marriage (if passed) follows the same notions and conditions as a heterosexual marriage. So is this implying that those single heterosexual couples who are getting married are just individualising themselves and prioritising individualism. That point is up to the individual, society doesn't get to dictate that.

Surely though, society has an interest in promoting institutions that are beneficial for society, don't they? We can agree, I'm sure, that the family is the bedrock of society and is an important institution in society. I believe that families are more important than individuals, and that society should prioritize families over individual people. I think that by recognizing same-sex marriage we are diminishing the social utility of families.

This is not to say that gay people don't deserve the same rights or protections against discrimination as other people. I would be in favour of having civil unions for same-sex couples which confer the exact same rights for them as for married couples.

goldkam wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 10:12pm:

To your second point. The union between a man and woman was actually dictated by the Howard Government with little consultation with the country. Thus this view is from an older generation of Liberal Conservatives. When ever will gay marriage somehow override heterosexual marriage, it is not a competition or power struggle, it is about equality and justice.

Howard had only amended the Act to reflect its original intention. When the original Act was passed in 1961 no one at that time would've ever construed marriage to be between two couples of the same-sex. It was only when the same-sex marriage movement was beginning to take steam that an amendment was necessary.

Second, with regard to equality and justice, the recognition of a man and woman as a unique status is actually egalitarian, is it not? That marriage requires both sexes indicates the equality of the institution, and the harmony between the sexes.

To your first point. It appears you are suggesting that gay marriage promotes individuality, when for some it does not. In 2016 12% of same sex couples had children, thus how is this diminishing social unity of families when in fact this represents a family. A family of the 21st century that people are going to have to respect and accept, but not necessarily agree with. In relation to two married same sex individuals, they are no different to two heterosexual individuals who are married, apart from the gender. But why is gender becoming an issue when defining a 'family'. So a single father or mother with a child is not part of a family because it lacks gender balance. However on that note, I do agree with you that family is an important value within society however individualism too is also extremely important as a societal structure as shown through womans rights, right to free speech etc..

To your second point. Its original intention was altered by a government of older liberal conservatives, hardly the voice of society as a whole.

To your third point. I never denied it was not egalitarian, rather heterosexual marriage does promote egalitarian principles. However so too does same sex marriage. All are entitled to feel a sense of love and union in unison with counterparts who are currently doing so. Not some dulled down version in what is called a civil union.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #63 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 7:34am

Something you add to your pickles to keep it in a jar?

A Greek waiter?

The length of time a con man serves in prison?

Same sex couples don't 'have' children - they inherit them or buy them.... how many of these lesbian couples are receiving payment from the fathers of the children - who are cut out of the loop? What's 'independent' and 'equal' about that? Two sheilas with kids could live without working and would certainly prosper far more than the former sperm donors.

Another 'unintended' consequence? No wonder there's a war on in this nation.

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« Last Edit: Feb 21^st, 2018 at 7:40am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

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Gnads

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #64 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 8:37am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 9:26am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:31am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17^th, 2018 at 10:33pm:

Conservative "family" values were only really formulated in the 1950s - a phenomenon of the post-war era. While she rallied behind the family, no one did more to dismantle its economic foundations than Thatcher and the zeitgeist she worked within.

Valuing the family conservatively goes back as far as families itself. Have a read of Weber's analysis of families. He goes as far back as Medieval times. The structure of family then isn't far removed from what we would call the extended family today. Furthermore, İ have spent considerable time outside the West and İ can assure you that family values are very important there.

The repercussions of liberalism on the family were unintended. Left-wing radicals, however, set out purposely to destroy it - feminists and Marxists saw it as an insitution of 'oppression'. Feminists still do.

'Feminists' are delusional - while lambasting the 'family' as some kind of oppressive mechanism, they perpetually seek to enjoy all the benefits of family according to their own desires... more of the individual nonsense.

If they truly refused benefit of family, they would oppose women receiving support for children outside marriage, and being supported after tearing the family apart, and would, at the very base of it, not have children at all.

They should also refuse the trappings of family inherent in childcare subsidies, government benefits for children including tax concessions, and time off for family etc, since these are the State replacing the family.

Having children automatically creates a 'family' - and no one person involved in the creation of that family has or should have absolute right and control over it, and put simply, these 'feminists' could not survive in society without the continued trappings of family that they continue to receive in many ways.

A true feminist would absolutely go it alone without any assistance from anyone, but they will never do that, since they want all the cream of society and none of the dregs.

(just like the freaking Blacks telling everyone they 'own' the land they never worked or worked for, but in hating on whitey for paying to own it and use it to generate all the benefits they enjoy, like feminists, they somehow figure they can just have it all without doing anything for it or with it)

Bravo

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Gnads

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #65 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 8:48am

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 9:41pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 9:24pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 9:00pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 6:03pm:

So, would be conservative to repeal SSM or reactionary?

You're missing the point. SSM means nothing because of previous laws, such as no-fault divorce, the sole-parenting payment, de-facto marriage, equal rights for gay partnerships.

The gay marriage thing was all about symbolism. It meant nothing, just as it would mean nothing today if we changed our head of state's title to president.

Abbott learned from one referendum to bring on his stalling plebiscite tactic. It worked for Howard, it didn't for Abbott.

Neither of them mean anything structurally.

So, if it doesn't mean anything, then why not repeal it?

So, essentially what you're saying is that we already live in a post-family society, and if we really wanted to preserve marriage, then we'd have to repeal no-fault divorce, jail husbands for abandoning their family, etc.

The fact that you can repeal it is hardly a conservative issue. Burkean conservatism is predominantly constitutional.

If the marriage act, prior to Howard repealing it, was so enduring, then how could it be repealed at all?

Did he "repeal" it or did he "amend" it?

I think it was the latter.

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Gnads

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #66 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 9:11am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 7:34am:

Something you add to your pickles to keep it in a jar?

A Greek waiter?

The length of time a con man serves in prison?

Same sex couples don't 'have' children - they inherit them or buy them.... how many of these lesbian couples are receiving payment from the fathers of the children - who are cut out of the loop? What's 'independent' and 'equal' about that? Two sheilas with kids could live without working and would certainly prosper far more than the former sperm donors.

Another 'unintended' consequence? No wonder there's a war on in this nation.

Spot on .... whilst the Intelligentsia wax lyrical. Roll Eyes

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philperth2010

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #67 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 9:22am

De facto relationships were recognised because two people who want to co inhabit without marriage should be afforded the same rights and the same dickheads cried it was the end of civilisation as we know it....Gay people are now afforded the same freedom to choose as one would expect in a free democratic society....No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do???

Roll Eyes

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #68 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 9:36am

philperth2010 wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 9:22am:

De facto relationships were recognised because two people who want to co inhabit without marriage should be afforded the same rights and the same dickheads cried it was the end of civilisation as we know it....Gay people are now afforded the same freedom to choose as one would expect in a free democratic society....No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do???

Roll Eyes

Still only Gay/Same Sex/Any Two Out Of Sixty Three Genders Marriage though... not the real thing.....

That's the problem.... the emotive sound bite sounds good.. but the reality is that deep in their hearts most do not believe it is a real marriage at all... all this does is show how people can be lead by the nose.... throw around a few emotive words like 'equality', define that to suit (add spin and shake well) .. and away you go.... people will believe it's all about equality instead of a special dispensation on a long-established norm and is thus special treatment of the few who do not wish to conform to that norm....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Mattyfisk

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #69 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 10:52am

philperth2010 wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 9:22am:

De facto relationships were recognised because two people who want to co inhabit without marriage should be afforded the same rights and the same dickheads cried it was the end of civilisation as we know it....
Roll Eyes

It was indeed. It was this legal recognition that did away with the institution of marriage. Now, marriage is no more than a symbolic gesture. It has nothing to do with raising families, as every bastard schoolboy knows.

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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #70 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 11:20am Why the significance of SSM for the BLT community, then?
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philperth2010 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19627 Perth Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #71 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 11:25am Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 11:20am: Why the significance of SSM for the BLT community, then? I didn't ask for a vote and it was not compulsory....The majority have spoken!!!
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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #72 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 11:29am Technically, no. Only 49% of eligible voters voted 'yes'.
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92344 Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #73 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 12:01pm Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 11:20am: Why the significance of SSM for the BLT community, then? All symbolic. How many BLTs are going to get married?
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92344 Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #74 - Feb 21^st, 2018 at 12:02pm Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 11:29am: Technically, no. Only 49% of eligible voters voted 'yes'. What percentage of eligible voters voted no?
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