Australian Politics Forum - What is a Conservative?

Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #15 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:33am

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17^th, 2018 at 10:33pm:

Thatcher was influenced by Friedrich Hayek, an economist/theorist often described as a conservative anarchist, but probably more influenced by the liberal ideal of the individual Mistie mentions - a radical libertarian in the mould of John Stuart Mill.

Conservative "family" values were only really formulated in the 1950s - a phenomenon of the post-war era. While she rallied behind the family, no one did more to dismantle its economic foundations than Thatcher and the zeitgeist she worked within.

Categorising these theories definitively and ideologically is always stupid. They merge and blend with their opponents and rivals. Their stated aims often have completely unintended consequences. There is beauty - and horror - in all social/political theory. All want to make the world better, and all have the potential for tyranny.

I think the reason why 'family' values were formulated in the 50s was because of the progressive movement at that time which gave rise to an expression of the existing order of things.

And yes, you're right about Thatcher, she was influenced more by libertarian strains of economic theory, which was un-conservative.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #16 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am Here's a question: Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20230 Gordon Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #17 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am: Here's a question: Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage? I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.
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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: What is a Conservative? Reply #18 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:42am I think a consevative government could campaign for a plebiscite on SSM given that the postal survey only garnered a 'yes' vote of 49% of all eligible voters. Priorities insist it being something for a few years in the future.
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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #19 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #20 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:03pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:42am:

I think a consevative government could campaign for a plebiscite on SSM given that the postal survey only garnered a 'yes' vote of 49% of all eligible voters. Priorities insist it being something for a few years in the future.

Should the government disregard the opinion of the majority on this issue and vote to repeal it notwithstanding?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #21 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:07pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

No - it may co-exist in harmony, but those who choose to hold the structure of the natural family should in no way be interfered with. Now that reasoning extends, from that point, to the current easy destruction of the formalised family unit, into separate segments that still perform the same duties. Mother still remains mother, father still provides etc... nothing changes but the actual structure.... the dream of women - to be independent and run around all they like and still garner the benefits of marriage without all of the responsibilities.

I've always advocated for a binding plebiscite.. yes or no by the people, of the people, and for the people, and I warned that the current (lack of) approach would lead to endless conflict and argument and the issue would not go away.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #22 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:09pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:07pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

No - it may co-exist in harmony, but those who choose to hold the structure of the natural family should in no way be interfered with. Now that reasoning extends, from that point, to the current easy destruction of the formalised family unit, into separate segments that still perform the same duties. Mother still remains mother, father still provides etc... nothing changes but the actual structure.... the dream of women - to be independent and run around all they like and still garner the benefits of marriage without all of the responsibilities.

Ok, so would you support a repeal to same-sex marriage notwithstanding that the majority were in favour of it?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #23 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:10pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:09pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:07pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

No - it may co-exist in harmony, but those who choose to hold the structure of the natural family should in no way be interfered with. Now that reasoning extends, from that point, to the current easy destruction of the formalised family unit, into separate segments that still perform the same duties. Mother still remains mother, father still provides etc... nothing changes but the actual structure.... the dream of women - to be independent and run around all they like and still garner the benefits of marriage without all of the responsibilities.

Ok, so would you support a repeal to same-sex marriage notwithstanding that the majority were in favour of it?

Read my addition below - until a binding vote is taken, there is no solution to the issue.... ergo - SSM remains in limbo and may be repealed at any time.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gordon

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #24 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:13pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

Yup, people should be allowed to form a family however they want.

Have you ever heard how M/F friends joke about how if they find themselves single and running down their reproductive clock they'll have a kid together? I know two people who actually did that. They were friends since uni, they hit their early 40s and said hey remember that pact we had?

They had a few roots and popped out a kid. In some respects, I'm just a tad jealous of his lifestyle

Having said that, I believe having a married mother and father living together in one house is the best way to structure a family and because it's so obviously such, the overwhelming vast majority of people wanting a family will strive for this, so no need to make laws to convince people of it.

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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #25 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:23pm

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

Yup, people should be allowed to form a family however they want.

Have you ever heard how M/F friends joke about how if they find themselves single and running down their reproductive clock they'll have a kid together? I know two people who actually did that. They were friends since uni, they hit their early 40s and said hey remember that pact we had?

They had a few roots and popped out a kid. In some respects, I'm just a tad jealous of his lifestyle

Having said that, I believe having a married mother and father living together in one house is the best way to structure a family and because it's so obviously such, the overwhelming vast majority of people wanting a family will strive for this, so no need to make laws to convince people of it.

So, should the state prioritize this structure by defining marriage as between a man and a woman?

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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #26 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:24pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:10pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:09pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:07pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

No - it may co-exist in harmony, but those who choose to hold the structure of the natural family should in no way be interfered with. Now that reasoning extends, from that point, to the current easy destruction of the formalised family unit, into separate segments that still perform the same duties. Mother still remains mother, father still provides etc... nothing changes but the actual structure.... the dream of women - to be independent and run around all they like and still garner the benefits of marriage without all of the responsibilities.

Ok, so would you support a repeal to same-sex marriage notwithstanding that the majority were in favour of it?

Read my addition below - until a binding vote is taken, there is no solution to the issue.... ergo - SSM remains in limbo and may be repealed at any time.

Ok, but if a binding vote took place, would you support same-sex marriage or would you still support its repeal notwithstanding the binding vote?

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Gordon

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #27 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:26pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:23pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

Yup, people should be allowed to form a family however they want.

Have you ever heard how M/F friends joke about how if they find themselves single and running down their reproductive clock they'll have a kid together? I know two people who actually did that. They were friends since uni, they hit their early 40s and said hey remember that pact we had?

They had a few roots and popped out a kid. In some respects, I'm just a tad jealous of his lifestyle

Having said that, I believe having a married mother and father living together in one house is the best way to structure a family and because it's so obviously such, the overwhelming vast majority of people wanting a family will strive for this, so no need to make laws to convince people of it.

So, should the state prioritize this structure by defining marriage as between a man and a woman?

No they shouldn't. Just let people work out what they want to do and the vast majority of family structures will end up (or strive for it) like that anyway.

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Auggie

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #28 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:29pm

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:26pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:23pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:39am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 11:35am:

Here's a question:

Should the conservatives in Australia fight to repeal same-sex marriage?

I think true conservatives should first and foremost value freedom of choice, so no.

Should freedom of choice override the structure of the natural family?

Yup, people should be allowed to form a family however they want.

Have you ever heard how M/F friends joke about how if they find themselves single and running down their reproductive clock they'll have a kid together? I know two people who actually did that. They were friends since uni, they hit their early 40s and said hey remember that pact we had?

They had a few roots and popped out a kid. In some respects, I'm just a tad jealous of his lifestyle

Having said that, I believe having a married mother and father living together in one house is the best way to structure a family and because it's so obviously such, the overwhelming vast majority of people wanting a family will strive for this, so no need to make laws to convince people of it.

So, should the state prioritize this structure by defining marriage as between a man and a woman?

No they shouldn't. Just let people work out what they want to do and the vast majority of family structures will end up (or strive for it) like that anyway.

I know this is a strawman argument; but then why not legally recognize plural marriages? If a group of people want to a have a plural family, why not legally recognize it?

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Gordon

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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #29 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:33pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 12:29pm: