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What is a Conservative? (Read 10825 times)
Auggie
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What is a Conservative?
Feb 17th, 2018 at 2:22pm
 
So, this issue has been occupying my mind for a while now. I've also been dabbling in centre-right ideology recently.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "Conservatism, political doctrine that emphasizes the value of traditional institutions and practices. Conservatism is a preference for the historically inherited rather than the abstract and ideal. This preference has traditionally rested on an organic conception of society—that is, on the belief that society is not merely a loose collection of individuals but a living organism comprising closely connected, interdependent members."

Without quoting ad verbatim, conservatism doesn't oppose change, but supports organic and gradual change. Whilst conservatism early on in its development was about protecting the ruling class and their interests (High Toryism) it evolved not only in response to the French Revolution but in response to 'radical' ideologies such as liberalism (radical here meaning advocating for change - progress). Thus, conservatism adopted a defensive position, and let the Liberals use political initiative. , which explains why many conservative governments didn't adopt reforms or progressive policies.

Conservatism underwent significant changes in its ideology during the 19th Century when liberal/radical ideas were sweeping Europe. Eventually, conservatives adopted many liberal tenets, in my view mainly as a way to prevent extreme revolution that they witnessed in the France. Bismark in Germany, for example, passed much social legislation, as a way to appease the radical left. In Britain, the conservatives adopted liberal tenets because they knew that it was inevitable.

Of course, the other side of conservatism, which ties in with its support for organic and gradual change is the fact that conservatives value traditional institutions such as: the church, the family and the community. In modern times, I would say that the conservative particularly values the family, which leads to another question: "which should society prioritize: the family or the individual?" There seems to be a conflict between the freedom of the individual and the stability of the family.

If we agree that the family is the bedrock of society and is the best teacher and nurturer of children, then should we jeopardize this in favour of extreme individual liberty? For example, was same-sex marriage more about the family, or more about the individual? Is gender fluidity beneficial to the family or to the individual?

Which has more social utility? The individual or the family? I believe that the family has more socially utility and society should prioritize the family over the individual.

Thoughts??


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Mattyfisk
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #1 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 3:32pm
 
Burke, the founder of conservatism, used the metaphor of the tree: cut off the wrong branches or roots and you lose the whole organism.

But by the same token, trees or plants grow as they will. Try preserving the wrong parts of a plant and you may risk losing the organism too. The monarchy and the church are two such limbs well past their prime. They once formed the body of the tree. Today, they're dead branches.

I have a lot of respect for society as an organism. It beats, I think, the scientific socialist idea of society as a machine. Conservatism is a smart philosophy. It has parallels with anarchism. It also has nothing to do with dumb knuckleheads like Andrew Bolt or Miranda Divine. They're just reactionaries.

I've seen the waste and destruction that comes with change for change's sake - particularly in the workforce. We're becoming enslaved to information-gathering processes that add nothing to quality or efficiency.

But by the same token, when a critical mass happens, change is inevitable. Gay marriage was one such issue. It was pointless preserving some outdated ideal of marriage, which serves no social purpose in the developed world anymore.

When the tree changes, you need to go with it. This is conservative too.
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #2 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 4:48pm
 
AugCaesarustus

Not sure what it means in terms of politics but in general Australians in many ways are conservative and progressive in many ways ...... the biggest group are centrists.

In many ways the ALP are very conservative and often regressive like many things in life its not a binary thing but a grey scale thing.

For most people I meet they really don't think about the political spectrum much at all. Typically Australians don't know what they want but they know what they hate.

In modern politics I really don't see the binary difference in political parties, even in the US you have one right wing party up against another right wing. In Australia we have one party right of centre the other left of centre...... under Rudd they pretended to be small l Liberal or Howard lite ..... so its an argument of shades of grey. Both the LNP and ALP overlap on each others polices often as a political strategy.

Based on actual performance the current LNP is conservative and the ALP looks regressive to me with BS Shorten at the helm.

I would prefer a progressive party governs to change what needs to be changed .... its a hard call given how the electorate punishes parties that push to far from the centre .... this applies to both the LNP and ALP.

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Mattyfisk
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #3 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:03pm
 
Make no mistake, Right. Conservatism is a political theory, quite distinct from just being opposed to any form of change. It was a response to socialism and the revolutionary movements of the mid 19th century.

There are plenty of other theories of the right. Conservatism is just one.
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #4 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 6:08pm
 
Auggie wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 2:22pm:
So, this issue has been occupying my mind for a while now. I've also been dabbling in centre-right ideology recently.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "Conservatism, political doctrine that emphasizes the value of traditional institutions and practices. Conservatism is a preference for the historically inherited rather than the abstract and ideal. This preference has traditionally rested on an organic conception of society—that is, on the belief that society is not merely a loose collection of individuals but a living organism comprising closely connected, interdependent members."

Without quoting ad verbatim, conservatism doesn't oppose change, but supports organic and gradual change. Whilst conservatism early on in its development was about protecting the ruling class and their interests (High Toryism) it evolved not only in response to the French Revolution but in response to 'radical' ideologies such as liberalism (radical here meaning advocating for change - progress). Thus, conservatism adopted a defensive position, and let the Liberals use political initiative. , which explains why many conservative governments didn't adopt reforms or progressive policies.

Conservatism underwent significant changes in its ideology during the 19th Century when liberal/radical ideas were sweeping Europe. Eventually, conservatives adopted many liberal tenets, in my view mainly as a way to prevent extreme revolution that they witnessed in the France. Bismark in Germany, for example, passed much social legislation, as a way to appease the radical left. In Britain, the conservatives adopted liberal tenets because they knew that it was inevitable.

Of course, the other side of conservatism, which ties in with its support for organic and gradual change is the fact that conservatives value traditional institutions such as: the church, the family and the community. In modern times, I would say that the conservative particularly values the family, which leads to another question: "which should society prioritize: the family or the individual?" There seems to be a conflict between the freedom of the individual and the stability of the family.

If we agree that the family is the bedrock of society and is the best teacher and nurturer of children, then should we jeopardize this in favour of extreme individual liberty? For example, was same-sex marriage more about the family, or more about the individual? Is gender fluidity beneficial to the family or to the individual?

Which has more social utility? The individual or the family? I believe that the family has more socially utility and society should prioritize the family over the individual.

Thoughts??




I agree ... family.

Now progressives will argue "what constitutes" a family?

Well their theory can get buried where it belongs... in the back of their tiny minds a good depth underground.
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:25pm
 
An interesting thread (not many have appeared here in the last few years - İ have started numerous thread about the very issues you point out but got little value out of them).

The problem in conservatism of the individual versus family is one that İ don't think has been fully sorted out. To be accurate, the concept of the individual comes from liberal theory and not necessarily conservatism. The two approaches merged somewhere along the way, probably out of convenience in combating leftist radical idiocy.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #6 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 9:05pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:25pm:
An interesting thread (not many have appeared here in the last few years - İ have started numerous thread about the very issues you point out but got little value out of them).

The problem in conservatism of the individual versus family is one that İ don't think has been fully sorted out. To be accurate, the concept of the individual comes from liberal theory and not necessarily conservatism. The two approaches merged somewhere along the way, probably out of convenience in combating leftist radical idiocy.


The individual comes from Descartes, Kant and Hume, spanning continental philosophy and impericism. If this is liberal theory, you must think all modern thought is liberal.

The concept of the nuclear family is Victorian - very recent.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #7 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 9:12pm
 
A Conservative is a Progressive who is too frightened to change too much in case it falls over.....

On the other hand a Neo-Conservative is a Fascist by any other name, with an absolute sense of entitlement to absolute control via the legislative process.....

The Neo-Conservative is typified by the Thatcherite style 'born to rule' mentality, accompanied by the near inability to genuinely do so via reliable and reasoned leadership with a clear eye to the future of the NATION. 

You see much of that kind of thing on both 'sides' of The Tag Team of Labor (the Labour Party after they dumped U out of it so it wasn't too much like real work) and LNP...and in certain Independents.

It was obvious that 63 gender marriage was all about the individual and not the family.  Anyone with children will tell you the ties are the strongest on earth, regardless of the way society as currently constituted bashes it.  Whether or not the 'nuclear family' was a recent formalised development - the reality was that it existed long before theory sought to classify and define it.

Hence the vast array of patronimic names - such as Johnson, etc... as an example only....

Beware the Ides of Social Science Theory - IT is a recent development still struggling to keep up with the human race..... in many, many ways.... and it is easy to become lost in the wilds of theory....
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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2018 at 9:22pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

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Mattyfisk
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #8 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:33pm
 
Thatcher was influenced by Friedrich Hayek, an economist/theorist often described as a conservative anarchist, but probably more influenced by the liberal ideal of the individual Mistie mentions - a radical libertarian in the mould of John Stuart Mill.

Conservative "family" values were only really formulated in the 1950s - a phenomenon of the post-war era. While she rallied behind the family, no one did more to dismantle its economic foundations than Thatcher and the zeitgeist she worked within.

Categorising these theories definitively and ideologically is always stupid. They merge and blend with their opponents and rivals. Their stated aims often have completely unintended consequences. There is beauty - and horror - in all social/political theory. All want to make the world better, and all have the potential for tyranny.
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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:38pm by Mattyfisk »  
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #9 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:08pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:33pm:
Thatcher was influenced by Friedrich Hayek, an economist/theorist often described as a conservative anarchist, but probably more influenced by the liberal ideal of the individual Mistie mentions - a radical libertarian in the mould of John Stuart Mill.

Conservative "family" values were only really formulated in the 1950s - a phenomenon of the post-war era. While she rallied behind the family, no one did more to dismantle its economic foundations than Thatcher and the zeitgeist she worked within.

Categorising these theories definitively and ideologically is always stupid. They merge and blend with their opponents and rivals. Their stated aims often have completely unintended consequences. There is beauty - and horror - in all social/political theory. All want to make the world better, and all have the potential for tyranny.


Bravo!
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #10 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:22am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 9:05pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:25pm:
An interesting thread (not many have appeared here in the last few years - İ have started numerous thread about the very issues you point out but got little value out of them).

The problem in conservatism of the individual versus family is one that İ don't think has been fully sorted out. To be accurate, the concept of the individual comes from liberal theory and not necessarily conservatism. The two approaches merged somewhere along the way, probably out of convenience in combating leftist radical idiocy.


The individual comes from Descartes, Kant and Hume, spanning continental philosophy and impericism. If this is liberal theory, you must think all modern thought is liberal.


You seem confused. What part of my post are you replying to?

Anyway, by liberal theory İ take the common understanding of it, which places the individual as of the utmost importance and also places constraints on the power of government and other people.

For the record, liberalism has its roots in Luther and the Protestants. They helped break the control of the Catholic Church, in the North anyway, and started the trend of a personal relationship with God, rather than it being interpreted through priests and the Monarchs. Later, religion is removed but the concept of the individual remains. Kant and Hume (not sure about Descartes) are (obviously) riding on the back of the ideas begun by the Protestants.

Quote:
The concept of the nuclear family is Victorian - very recent.


And?
Families go back, well, forever.
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #11 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:31am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:33pm:
Conservative "family" values were only really formulated in the 1950s - a phenomenon of the post-war era. While she rallied behind the family, no one did more to dismantle its economic foundations than Thatcher and the zeitgeist she worked within.


Valuing the family conservatively goes back as far as families itself. Have a read of Weber's analysis of families. He goes as far back as Medieval times. The structure of family then isn't far removed from what we would call the extended family today. Furthermore, İ have spent considerable time outside the West and İ can assure you that family values are very important there.

The repercussions of liberalism on the family were unintended. Left-wing radicals, however, set out purposely to destroy it - feminists and Marxists saw it as an insitution of 'oppression'. Feminists still do.


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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #12 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 9:26am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:31am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:33pm:
Conservative "family" values were only really formulated in the 1950s - a phenomenon of the post-war era. While she rallied behind the family, no one did more to dismantle its economic foundations than Thatcher and the zeitgeist she worked within.


Valuing the family conservatively goes back as far as families itself. Have a read of Weber's analysis of families. He goes as far back as Medieval times. The structure of family then isn't far removed from what we would call the extended family today. Furthermore, İ have spent considerable time outside the West and İ can assure you that family values are very important there.

The repercussions of liberalism on the family were unintended. Left-wing radicals, however, set out purposely to destroy it - feminists and Marxists saw it as an insitution of 'oppression'. Feminists still do.





'Feminists' are delusional - while lambasting the 'family' as some kind of oppressive mechanism, they perpetually seek to enjoy all the benefits of family according to their own desires... more of the individual nonsense.

If they truly refused benefit of family, they would oppose women receiving support for children outside marriage, and being supported after tearing the family apart, and would, at the very base of it, not have children at all.

They should also refuse the trappings of family inherent in childcare subsidies, government benefits for children including tax concessions, and time off for family etc, since these are the State replacing the family.

Having children automatically creates a 'family' - and no one person involved in the creation of that family has or should have absolute right and control over it, and put simply, these 'feminists' could not survive in society without the continued trappings of family that they continue to receive in many ways.

A true feminist would absolutely go it alone without any assistance from anyone, but they will never do that, since they want all the cream of society and none of the dregs.

(just like the freaking Blacks telling everyone they 'own' the land they never worked or worked for, but in hating on whitey for paying to own it and use it to generate all the benefits they enjoy, like feminists, they somehow figure they can just have it all without doing anything for it or with it)
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Auggie
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #13 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:29am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
But by the same token, when a critical mass happens, change is inevitable. Gay marriage was one such issue. It was pointless preserving some outdated ideal of marriage, which serves no social purpose in the developed world anymore.


Regarding same-sex marriage, don't you think that society has an interest in recognising the importance of a mother-father family structure over a father-father or mother-mother one? Shouldn't we be prioritizing the family over the individual?

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
When the tree changes, you need to go with it. This is conservative too.


But, isn't conservatism also about trying to preserve the best type of society? Even if it means going back to the status quo ante?

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Auggie
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Re: What is a Conservative?
Reply #14 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:31am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 9:12pm:
A Conservative is a Progressive who is too frightened to change too much in case it falls over.....

On the other hand a Neo-Conservative is a Fascist by any other name, with an absolute sense of entitlement to absolute control via the legislative process.....

The Neo-Conservative is typified by the Thatcherite style 'born to rule' mentality, accompanied by the near inability to genuinely do so via reliable and reasoned leadership with a clear eye to the future of the NATION. 

You see much of that kind of thing on both 'sides' of The Tag Team of Labor (the Labour Party after they dumped U out of it so it wasn't too much like real work) and LNP...and in certain Independents.

It was obvious that 63 gender marriage was all about the individual and not the family.  Anyone with children will tell you the ties are the strongest on earth, regardless of the way society as currently constituted bashes it.  Whether or not the 'nuclear family' was a recent formalised development - the reality was that it existed long before theory sought to classify and define it.

Hence the vast array of patronimic names - such as Johnson, etc... as an example only....

Beware the Ides of Social Science Theory - IT is a recent development still struggling to keep up with the human race..... in many, many ways.... and it is easy to become lost in the wilds of theory....


I agree with your assessment of the recent ballot measure. The family is the bedrock of society and should be prioritized over the individual, in my view.
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