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Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole (Read 7183 times)
whiteknight
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Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:29am
 
Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018

The Turnbull government is facing pressure to ditch company tax cuts in favour of a $75 weekly increase to those living in poverty on unemployment payments.

The Australian Council of Social Service will unveil its budget priorities on Tuesday.

Increasing dole payments by $75 per week would cost $3.2 billion in 2019-2020, the organisation said in its budget priority statement.

Newstart is $538.80 a fortnight for single people.   Sad

"It would be a big mistake for this government to press ahead with personal and corporate tax cuts when we're facing major funding shortfalls in vital areas such as the national disability insurance scheme, health, needs-based schools funding, and action to reduce poverty," chief executive Cassandra Goldie said.   Sad

The organisation is calling for a crackdown on the use of private trusts to avoid personal income tax to generate $1.5 billion in revenue in 2019-2020.

Dr Goldie said stamping out the use of private companies to avoid personal income tax could bring in $1.4 billion and curbing international business tax avoidance $500 million.

With an estimated one-in-six Australian children living below the poverty line, Dr Goldie said urgent changes were needed for family welfare payments.

Family payments should be restructured so they no longer decline as children grow older and their costs rise, she said.

She added reforming family payments to better target assistance and reduce child poverty would cost $630 million.
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #1 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am
 
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018



The dole bludgers think hardworking businesses should give them more sit down money.

The Dole was never meant to be a lifestyle choice, if the bludgers want more money they should get a job the minimum wage is over $17 per hour.


Quote:
SIX MYTHS ABOUT  THE BUSINESS TAX CUT

Myth 1: Australia’s Business Tax Rate  is Not High Australia’s top marginal business tax rate of 30% is one of the highest in the developed world. It is well above the OECD average of 24% and other comparable nations such as the U.K. (17% by 2020), the U.S. (21%), and Singapore (17%).

Myth 2: Dividend Imputation Removes the  Benefits of a Tax Cut Some argue that Australia’s dividend imputation system reduces, or nullifies, the benefits of a company tax cut.3 In most cases Australian shareholders are provided with a franking credit worth 30 cents in the dollar for dividends that have already been taxed at the 30% company tax rate. This means the tax rate paid by the shareholder on dividend income is the difference between their personal income tax rate and the company tax rate. Dividend imputation is important because it removes the double taxation of company income.

Myth 3: Multinational Tax Avoidance  is Widespread Some claim multinational firms avoid tax and shift profits to overseas destinations which reduces their effective tax rate.4 The effect of this would be to erode the business tax base, which would be revealed through a lower ratio of business tax to GDP, and a lower ratio of business tax to revenue. However, the best available evidence suggests the extent of profit shifting is low and the business tax base in Australia has grown overtime.  ◾ Recent empirical work suggests that multinational firms operating in high-tax jurisdictions shift only between 2% and 4% of their profits to lower tax jurisdictions.5  ◾ Professor Sinclair Davidson and Dr Chris Berg found that “the company tax base has broadened over time, especially since the early 1980s.”6
◾ The Australian Tax Office said in 2015 that “…we know that the majority of large businesses operate within the law and pay the right amount of tax.”7 Further, one of the main causes of profit shifting is the relative tax rate difference between Australia and other, lower tax jurisdictions. Reducing the business tax rate in Australia will reduce the extent of profit shifting. In that sense, reducing the business tax rate is a true tax integrity measure.

Myth 4: Company Tax Cuts Only Benefit  Big Businesses Companies do not exist independent of the employees, owners, shareholders, customers, and suppliers they are comprised of. It is these individuals who pay the business tax – through lower wages, lower investment returns, and higher prices – not the businesses per se. And it is these individuals who benefit from the company tax cut. Lower company taxes will increase after-tax profits. This will make Australia a more attractive country for businesses to invest in. This means more businesses will choose to invest more capital in Australia, which will increase economic output and, consequently, the demand for labour and wages growth. The Treasury estimated that reducing the business tax rate to 25% will increase GDP by 1%, or $17 billion each year. The main benefit of a company tax cut will flow to workers.  ◾ Economist John Freebairn found one-half of the benefit of a corporate tax reduction goes to higher wages.8    ◾ Treasury estimated that two-thirds of the benefit of a company tax cut flows through to households, primarily through rises in real wages.9  ◾ Even Former Treasury Secretary Ken Henry stated “if the company income tax were to be cut, the principal beneficiaries will be workers…”10

Myth 5: The Benefits of a Tax Cut will Take Years to Materialise The benefits of a tax cut will be immediate. To date more than 160 firms in the United States have provided staff bonuses, pay rises, and other benefits as a direct result of the Trump administration cutting the United States’ corporate tax rate to 21% from 35%. These include: ◾ AT&T, the world’s largest telecommunications company, paid a $1,000 bonus to 200,000 workers.11  ◾ Boeing invested an additional $300 million on employeerelated and charitable activities.12  ◾ Walmart, the world’s largest company, announced it would also spend $300 million on wage increases, including bonuses of up to $1,000 per employee.13 Similar results would occur in Australia: ◾ Elmer Funke Kupper, CEO of the ASX, said cutting the business tax in Australia to 25% “would allow us to increase staff by 10 to 15 per cent.”14 ◾ Andrew Mackenzie, CEO of BHP Billiton, said tax cuts could lead to projects being approved within months.15 ◾ Alison Watkins, Group Managing Director at Coca-Cola Amatil said “there’s no doubt a lower company tax rate makes Australia a more attractive place to invest capital and create jobs.16

Myth 6: The Tax Cut is Unaffordable Some argue the proposed tax cut is unaffordable.17 However, this assumes that a tax cut is equivalent to additional expenditure. This is false.


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Baronvonrort
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #2 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:43am
 
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #3 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am
 
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #4 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am
 
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am:
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad 


When they get a job

Wink
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #5 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am
 

What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided

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Baronvonrort
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #6 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:47am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided



Nobody cares what you say little pecca, you reneged on your bet with Bias and lied about leaving this forum if Trump won the election

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #7 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:51am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided



There's my answer    Smiley
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #8 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:59am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am:
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad 


When they get a job

Wink


How many jobs will I put you down for?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #9 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:02pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:59am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am:
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad 


When they get a job

Wink


How many jobs will I put you down for?


I have a job.

If I became unemployed I couldn't get the dole they don't give it to people with money in the bank and income from investments.

I couldn't get a pension with the assets test so I will have to be self funded in retirement.

Perhaps I should have sat on my ass and asked for handouts like those who want to spend other peoples money.
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #10 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:51pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018



The dole bludgers think hardworking businesses should give them more sit down money.

The Dole was never meant to be a lifestyle choice, if the bludgers want more money they should get a job the minimum wage is over $17 per hour.[/size]


yeah a part time job at $17 an hour 4 hours a day 2 days a week will be $136 mostly youth jobs.  Older workers in the 770,000 unemployed are stuffed.  NO JOBS AVAILABLE FOR ANY OF THEM.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #11 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 2:30pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:02pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:59am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am:
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad 


When they get a job

Wink


How many jobs will I put you down for?


I have a job.

If I became unemployed I couldn't get the dole they don't give it to people with money in the bank and income from investments.

I couldn't get a pension with the assets test so I will have to be self funded in retirement.

Perhaps I should have sat on my ass and asked for handouts like those who want to spend other peoples money.


Similar for me except my wife is a CFO.
We are both looking at early semi-retirement in 5 years or so.
On top of our investments we have both been paying into super all of our careers, that alone adds up to a big number there is no way we would qualify for a pension.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #12 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 3:57pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018



The dole bludgers think hardworking businesses should give them more sit down money.

The Dole was never meant to be a lifestyle choice, if the bludgers want more money they should get a job the minimum wage is over $17 per hour.

15% of the workforce was NEVER supposed to be kept out of work without their consent by deliberate government policy. The current intentional and chronic shortage of jobs means one thing - for unemployed people to get into work, you have to risk losing YOUR job.

It doesn't have to be like this. Only full employment mandated by law can get everyone into work.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am:
Quote:
SIX MYTHS ABOUT  THE BUSINESS TAX CUT

Myth 1: Australia’s Business Tax Rate  is Not High Australia’s top marginal business tax rate of 30% is one of the highest in the developed world. It is well above the OECD average of 24% and other comparable nations such as the U.K. (17% by 2020), the U.S. (21%), and Singapore (17%).

A very simplistic argument that hides some inconvenient facts. The actual company tax rate paid by large corporations is about 22%, and with the huge amounts of money paid out in corporate welfare it's closer to 17%. We can reduce company taxes without smashing the Budget, but only if corporations are willing to take very deep cuts to their corporate welfare. Some measures that can be axed: dividend imputation, private health insurance rebate, fossil fuel subsidies, all corporate welfare for private infrastructure, corporate grants for water efficiency, etc.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #13 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 4:00pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:02pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:59am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am:
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad 


When they get a job

Wink


How many jobs will I put you down for?


I have a job.

If I became unemployed I couldn't get the dole they don't give it to people with money in the bank and income from investments.

I couldn't get a pension with the assets test so I will have to be self funded in retirement.

The assets test for the aged pension is a crock of sht. We could actually save money by scrapping the assets test for the pension, paying everyone of pension age the aged pension, and paying for it by scrapping tax concessions for self funded retirees and reducing the tax concession for superannuation contributions to a real 15% discount at all income levels.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #14 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 6:23pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:47am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided



Nobody cares what you say little pecca, you reneged on your bet with Bias and lied about leaving this forum if Trump won the election



No, I agree with the baron

You are a liar and no one trusts you at cares for your inane comments.
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A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #15 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 8:05pm
 
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:44am:
When will the unemployed ever get a fair and just increase?.   Sad 



When companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.
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Its time
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #16 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 8:07pm
 
Valkie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 6:23pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:47am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided



Nobody cares what you say little pecca, you reneged on your bet with Bias and lied about leaving this forum if Trump won the election



No, I agree with the baron

You are a liar and no one trusts you at cares for your inane comments.


You must do , you knob jockeys constantly reply   Grin Grin
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #17 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 5:29pm
 
Socialism is the ANSWER!!!!!  To Hell with the cost and where the money comes from.

The Welfare Dependent Lefties seem to think WELFARE comes first and actual productivity in the economy comes second.

A booming economy is better able to AFFORD the crippling cost of unproductive wasteful WELFARE for the bludging malingering Lefties on Welfare.

Trump has got USA booming again with his tax cuts that have international companies jostling to go to the USA.

And Mal is copying the very effective Trump moves.

While the union controlled Labor wants to disappear down the bottomless WELFARE hole of despair and DEBT. Just like they did in the six sick years of Socialist waste and disgrace and shame.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #18 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:46pm
 
juliar wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
Socialism is the ANSWER!!!!!  To Hell with the cost and where the money comes from.

The Welfare Dependent Lefties seem to think WELFARE comes first and actual productivity in the economy comes second.

A booming economy is better able to AFFORD the crippling cost of unproductive wasteful WELFARE for the bludging malingering Lefties on Welfare.

Trump has got USA booming again with his tax cuts that have international companies jostling to go to the USA.

And Mal is copying the very effective Trump moves.

While the union controlled Labor wants to disappear down the bottomless WELFARE hole of despair and DEBT. Just like they did in the six sick years of Socialist waste and disgrace and shame.


Yes again there is another flawed thread a self interest body is suggesting an odd socialistic misguided relationship between company taxation and social welfare initiatives !

Taxation is collected so the government can govern for all corporate taxation is never meant to cover ad-hoc social programmes. Whether we spend more on such is completely irrelevant to whether we are a high corporate taxer (which we are) or low. If a corporate tax cut brings more business that also means more tax corporate tax and more GST.

The two issues are not related at all.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #19 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm
 
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #20 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #21 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #22 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:12pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided



There are no unemployed Liberal supporters one visit to an unemployment agency is a life time cure for Liberal propaganda.
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« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:36pm by Dnarever »  
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #23 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #24 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.



I can't carry forward any losses as a PAYE wage earner - none - ZERO.

It's not fair.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #25 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:28pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.



I can't carry forward any losses as a PAYE wage earner - none - ZERO.

It's not fair.


Since when does a PAYE ever make a loss. Never, that's why you don't offset them against future profits. It's fairer for you than the corporate arrangement.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #26 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:34pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:51pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am:
whiteknight wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018



The dole bludgers think hardworking businesses should give them more sit down money.

The Dole was never meant to be a lifestyle choice, if the bludgers want more money they should get a job the minimum wage is over $17 per hour.[/size]


yeah a part time job at $17 an hour 4 hours a day 2 days a week will be $136 mostly youth jobs.  Older workers in the 770,000 unemployed are stuffed.  NO JOBS AVAILABLE FOR ANY OF THEM.


That is what the greens and labor want for everyone in this country, menial low paying jobs in tourism instead of well paying jobs in manufacturing, agriculture or resources.


Labor and the greens have all but destroyed investment in QLD, and as a result we now have the worst unemployment in the country.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #27 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:35pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.



I can't carry forward any losses as a PAYE wage earner - none - ZERO.

It's not fair.


Since when does a PAYE ever make a loss. Never, that's why you don't offset them against future profits. It's fairer for you than the corporate arrangement.



You can't claim your car expenses to get to and from work -

that's one of about 1000 expenses.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #28 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:39pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.



I can't carry forward any losses as a PAYE wage earner - none - ZERO.

It's not fair.


Since when does a PAYE ever make a loss. Never, that's why you don't offset them against future profits. It's fairer for you than the corporate arrangement.


During periods of unemployment ? Unpaid leave ?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #29 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:47pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
During periods of unemployment ? Unpaid leave ?



Having to relocate for your employer.

The Govt. wants any rent money you get for your house to be taxed but
you can't claim rent you have to pay to move to the new location.

It's so unfair.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #30 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:22pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.



I can't carry forward any losses as a PAYE wage earner - none - ZERO.

It's not fair.


Since when does a PAYE ever make a loss. Never, that's why you don't offset them against future profits. It's fairer for you than the corporate arrangement.



You can't claim your car expenses to get to and from work -

that's one of about 1000 expenses.


Travel to work is a private expense. You are free to claim a deduction on work related expenses.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #31 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:24pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.


They all pay their legal obligations.





Qantas paid $zero.


I paid more tax than Qantas


Don't be a doofus all your life. Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

You may well have paid more tax but you may have also made more profit after accounting for the carried losses.



I can't carry forward any losses as a PAYE wage earner - none - ZERO.

It's not fair.


Since when does a PAYE ever make a loss. Never, that's why you don't offset them against future profits. It's fairer for you than the corporate arrangement.


During periods of unemployment ? Unpaid leave ?


How are these expenses work related. They are private expenses.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #32 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:27pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:47pm:
Dnarever wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
During periods of unemployment ? Unpaid leave ?



Having to relocate for your employer.

The Govt. wants any rent money you get for your house to be taxed but
you can't claim rent you have to pay to move to the new location.

It's so unfair.


An expense is not the same thing as a loss. Loss means Expenses > Income. These losses are offset against future profits. PAYE never has the situation where work related expenses are greater than income.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #33 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #34 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.

Qantas are carrying forward rather large losses due to deductables.

Both are legal fictions. Qantas isn't really losing money when they claim depreciation allowances. It's just an allowable deduction. In theory, Qantas would only lose money when they dispose of the asset for less than what they paid for it.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #35 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:40pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:27pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:47pm:
Dnarever wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
During periods of unemployment ? Unpaid leave ?



Having to relocate for your employer.

The Govt. wants any rent money you get for your house to be taxed but
you can't claim rent you have to pay to move to the new location.

It's so unfair.


An expense is not the same thing as a loss. Loss means Expenses > Income. These losses are offset against future profits. PAYE never has the situation where work related expenses are greater than income.



But if you have to pay rent when you relocate to a new address
then why shouldn't it be deductible against rent you receive for your own house?
Then there is the problem of your own house being ruined by tenants
& suffering depreciation.
It's not uncommon to have to spend 20 to 30K after tenants move out -
to get the place back to the same standard as when they moved in.
None of that can be offset and we haven't got to
the CGT when you rent your place out -
the Govt. then wants CGT when you sell.
What a mess they create yet
companies like Qantas pay no tax.
Go figure?

The average tax payer is screwed by the tax dept. -
absolutely shafted.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #36 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #37 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.



The legal obligations are highly unfair on Joe Average the poor
bloke who winds his weary way to work every day in peak hour traffic.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #38 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.

I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.


Qantas are carrying forward rather large losses due to deductables.

And your point ?


Both are legal fictions. Qantas isn't really losing money when they claim depreciation allowances. It's just an allowable deduction. In theory, Qantas would only lose money when they dispose of the asset for less than what they paid for it.

You're nuts if you think depreciated value does not make an entry on the right hand side of a balance sheet. If the asset has declined in value, the size of the fixed capital account has also decreased. It is a loss. Would you prefer that the purchase of a new aircraft be an allowable expense and the full deduction made in the year of purchase. The depreciation rules are a disadvantage to the corporation.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #39 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:15pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.



The legal obligations are highly unfair on Joe Average the poor
bloke who winds his weary way to work every day in peak hour traffic.


So what, Joe travels to work. Companies don't travel to work.

Would Bobby prefer to get a deduction for work travel and then pay 30c in the dollar from the first dollar in the black. No tax free threshold and no progressive marginal rates. No dole when work dries up.

Go for it.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #40 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:28pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.



The legal obligations are highly unfair on Joe Average the poor
bloke who winds his weary way to work every day in peak hour traffic.


So what, Joe travels to work. Companies don't travel to work.

Would Bobby prefer to get a deduction for work travel and then pay 30c in the dollar from the first dollar in the black. No tax free threshold and no progressive marginal rates. No dole when work dries up.

Go for it.



So you support Alan Joyce?
Poor bloke he only gets  $24.6 million per annum.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/15/qantas-boss-alan-joyce-pay-pack...



...
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #41 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:38pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:28pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.



The legal obligations are highly unfair on Joe Average the poor
bloke who winds his weary way to work every day in peak hour traffic.


So what, Joe travels to work. Companies don't travel to work.

Would Bobby prefer to get a deduction for work travel and then pay 30c in the dollar from the first dollar in the black. No tax free threshold and no progressive marginal rates. No dole when work dries up.

Go for it.



So you support Alan Joyce?
Poor bloke he only gets  $24.6 million per annum.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/15/qantas-boss-alan-joyce-pay-pack...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8604050-3x2-940x627.jpg


I have no opinion on Alan Joyce. His pay packet is the business of the Qantas shareholders.

From your linked article he has turned a $2.4 billion dollar loss into a profit and quadrupled the share price. Obviously, the investors are happy. I don't care one way or the other.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #42 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:41pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:38pm:
I have no opinion on Alan Joyce. His pay packet is the business of the Qantas shareholders.



Have you ever been shafted by the tax Dept?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #43 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:44pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:38pm:
I have no opinion on Alan Joyce. His pay packet is the business of the Qantas shareholders.



Have you ever been shafted by the tax Dept?


In what way. I file a return, get an assessment and pay them. It isn't that hard.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #44 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:47pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:44pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:38pm:
I have no opinion on Alan Joyce. His pay packet is the business of the Qantas shareholders.



Have you ever been shafted by the tax Dept?


In what way. I file a return, get an assessment and pay them. It isn't that hard.



OK - so do you think the tax structure is fair?

Any room for improvement?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #45 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:30pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.

Hiding behind the letter of the law to avoid discussing the deficiencies of the law is a hallmark of scoundrels.

Why are you avoiding discussing the unfairness of taxation law? Your vigour in avoiding the discussion of this issue is only matched by the vigour of a few tax dodging corporations in avoiding tax - and I suspect for much the same reasons.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #46 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #47 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:39pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.



The legal obligations are highly unfair on Joe Average the poor
bloke who winds his weary way to work every day in peak hour traffic.


So what, Joe travels to work. Companies don't travel to work.

So company cars don't exist then? Are any travel expenses not deductible for corporations? Or are you just splitting hairs despite claiming that you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics"?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #48 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 6:03pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 3:57pm:
[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1518571743/1#1 date=1518572557][quote author=stillcrook link=1518571743/0#0 date=1518571743]Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018



You've spoken about this before. Can you explain how this would happen?

Ye Grappler, would you like to weigh in too?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #49 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 7:55pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:30pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.

Hiding behind the letter of the law to avoid discussing the deficiencies of the law is a hallmark of scoundrels.

Nobody is hiding. The law of the land is being upheld. There has been ample opportunity to change them if the gummint wishes to. They have not because there is not much wrong. t's just that you don't understand the reasons behind them.


Why are you avoiding discussing the unfairness of taxation law? Your vigour in avoiding the discussion of this issue is only matched by the vigour of a few tax dodging corporations in avoiding tax - and I suspect for much the same reasons.

On another thread it was pointed out to you how the likes of Apple and others treat their IP. The best you could come with is that they should sell the products for the manufactured cost plus freight. You were pressed regarding the value of the IP and chose avoidance instead. How are Qantas and Apple being unfair ?


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #50 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 7:58pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:39pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:02pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm:
Make companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google pay tax.

They all pay their legal obligations.

You're missing the point. The law needs to be changed.

If these tax-avoiding companies pay more tax, it can be balanced with tax cuts so other companies can pay less.


It s you that misses the point. If they are paying their legal obligations they are not avoiding anything.



The legal obligations are highly unfair on Joe Average the poor
bloke who winds his weary way to work every day in peak hour traffic.


So what, Joe travels to work. Companies don't travel to work.

So company cars don't exist then?

Of course they do.


Are any travel expenses not deductible for corporations?

Private expenses of company vehicles are the subject of Fringe Benefits Tax. This is far more punitive than PAYE marginal rates.


Or are you just splitting hairs despite claiming that you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics"?

You're the one splitting hairs with your pedantry.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #51 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 8:03pm
 
Auggie wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 6:03pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 3:57pm:
[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1518571743/1#1 date=1518572557][quote author=stillcrook link=1518571743/0#0 date=1518571743]Call to ditch company tax cuts, lift dole

The peak welfare body insists lifting the dole by $75 per week should be an urgent priority in the May federal budget.
SBS News February 13 2018



You've spoken about this before. Can you explain how this would happen?

Ye Grappler, would you like to weigh in too?


The peak welfare body. Says it all really. The Neanderthals around here just don't get where the actual burden of the corporate tax actually falls. The corporation may have the legal obligation to pay it but who bears the brunt. It is a massive tax on workers, consumers, productivity and comparative advantage. The actual shareholders don't pay the majority of it.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #52 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #53 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #54 - Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

The whole point of work is to feed, clothe and shelter yourself. Are you suggesting that income tax apply only to luxuries. The idea of working dates way back to the division of labour. One of the key factors in productivity growth and living standards.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #55 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

The whole point of work is to feed, clothe and shelter yourself. Are you suggesting that income tax apply only to luxuries. The idea of working dates way back to the division of labour. One of the key factors in productivity growth and living standards.


Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.


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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:18am by Setanta »  
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #56 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 7:38am
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am:
Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.




You've hit the entire silliness of the tax structure on the head... in this day and age of 'workplace agreements' - i.e. contracted work (it always was but this is more formal) - the worker should have the absolute right to write off costs of going to work etc.

Told you the rules for business were set up to benefit those who set them up - way back several centuries - and have not kept pace with the changes in society etc.

One rule for all certainly does not apply in taxation of income strands - there are first class and second class legal entities...........  Huh ..... and then the businesses even get up and demand a vote sometimes as if by some kind of right - they can have a vote when they pay the same taxes as the voters do.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #57 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:32am
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

The whole point of work is to feed, clothe and shelter yourself. Are you suggesting that income tax apply only to luxuries. The idea of working dates way back to the division of labour. One of the key factors in productivity growth and living standards.


Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

That would be daft.
1. The PAYE is fully entitled to recover work related transportation expenses where they are directly involved in carrying out work related duties. Leaving home and actually turning up is not related to carrying out those duties. That has been the rule for years.
2. The unallowed deductions would simply be passed onto the consumer and wage earner. Do you really want that.


If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.

Many people do incorporate but doesn't help. Any wages drawn are subject to their marginal tax rate. Private use of corporate assets are subject to fringe benefits tax.



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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #58 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 7:38am:
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am:
Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.




You've hit the entire silliness of the tax structure on the head... in this day and age of 'workplace agreements' - i.e. contracted work (it always was but this is more formal) - the worker should have the absolute right to write off costs of going to work etc.

How are you going to report the breakdown of private usage vs work usage. Do you want everybody to maintain log books and face audits. Far simpler to not include them, adjust the marginal rates accordingly and give everyone a tax free threshold.


Told you the rules for business were set up to benefit those who set them up - way back several centuries - and have not kept pace with the changes in society etc.

One rule for all certainly does not apply in taxation of income strands - there are first class and second class legal entities...........  Huh ..... and then the businesses even get up and demand a vote sometimes as if by some kind of right - they can have a vote when they pay the same taxes as the voters do.

Pay the same taxes as voters. They pay tax from the first dollar of profit, no tax free threshold and no progressive marginal rates either. No dole when work dries up, no medicare, no pension, no family tax benefit.

You still don't get it. The burden of the tax and who ultimately pays it is important not who the legal entity that deposits the money with the ATO may be. 


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #59 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:34am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 7:38am:
One rule for all certainly does not apply in taxation of income strands - there are first class and second class legal entities...........  Huh ..... and then the businesses even get up and demand a vote sometimes as if by some kind of right - they can have a vote when they pay the same taxes as the voters do.


Pay the same taxes as voters. They pay tax from the first dollar of profit,

With 90% of everything they earn being deductible (including past losses). For workers it's closer to 10%.

crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
no tax free threshold

Carrying forward paper losses (many of them fictitious) is functionally the same as a tax free threshold. This alone reduces taxable profit for all large corporations combined by about 25%.

crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
and no progressive marginal rates either.

Incorrect. Small businesses have a 25% tax rate on taxable profits, large businesses have a 30% tax rate.

crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
No dole when work dries up,

Incorrect. Businesses often receive grants to bail them out because socialising losses is a thing. They get other dole payments too. Their combined dole payments (in the form of corporate welfare, subsidies etc) is greater than the total that is paid out to unemployed workers.

crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
no medicare, no pension, no family tax benefit.

Irrelevant. Businesses aren't actually people, despite legal fictions that may claim otherwise.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #60 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:47am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am:
The dole bludgers think hardworking businesses should give them more sit down money.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #61 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:54am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink

You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

So what? Are you hiding behind the law again to avoid discussing the possibility of changing an unjust law?

Try earning money without travelling to work. Unless you're one of the lucky ones who work from home, you won't earn much.

Some people spend as much as 20% of their income just travelling to and from work. This is not money they could use to put a roof over their heads, feed and clothe their children or pay their bills. It's just money that is not available to them. To say this is not a legitimate expense against income just because it's not currently legal to claim it is an abdication from reality.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #62 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 1:44pm
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say it all you like without context you seem clueless on the subject. For an employee its not except when they are made to travel to a non-normal place or work.

For a self employed tradie it is a deduction.
The Tax office made a ruling ages ago (before I started working) that its not a deduction for an employee.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #63 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm
 
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #64 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm
 
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.


OK a company tax cut is designed promote business growth and investment. If that is realised and the cut is modest it could be tax revenue neutral or tax revenue could go up ... who knows clearly you don't. Why bother cutting company tax if activity does not grow ?

Also with business growth GST goes up to.

Throwing more money at dole bluggers just creates more dole bluggers !
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #65 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:27pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.


OK a company tax cut is designed promote business growth and investment. If that is realised and the cut is modest it could be tax revenue neutral or tax revenue could go up ... who knows clearly you don't. Why bother cutting company tax if activity does not grow ?

Also with business growth GST goes up to.

Throwing more money at dole bluggers just creates more dole bluggers !


Activity growing doesn't mean much - because associated expenses will grow as well.  You are thinking of absolute figures while i prefer to think of percentagewise.  Government grows as activity grows.  Either because of wage rise within the government, government spending increases to maintain inflation costs, or increase in expenditure from regulation due to increased activity. 

In any civilisation game, few people use absolute numbers and simply set a percentage.  You've been tricked.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #66 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:39pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.


OK a company tax cut is designed promote business growth and investment. If that is realised and the cut is modest it could be tax revenue neutral or tax revenue could go up ... who knows clearly you don't. Why bother cutting company tax if activity does not grow ?

Except it won't. Corporations are just as likely to spend the extra money on stock buybacks or paying increased dividends to shareholders. Neither option promotes growth. Both options increase inequity which is already a major problem.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Also with business growth GST goes up to.

Businesses do not pay GST. They pass it on.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Throwing more money at dole bluggers just creates more dole bluggers !

No it doesn't, it grows the economy because people on low incomes must spend it all. When even the Business Council are calling for a substantial increase in the dole, it's something that should be considered. The dole is far too low, it keeps people out of work.

What needs to be addressed is the rampant discrimination against the unemployed, the chronic and intentional lack of jobs and the excessive casualisation of the workforce. Increasing the dole is needed, but so is greater access to good jobs for the unemployed.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #67 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:17pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:32am:
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

The whole point of work is to feed, clothe and shelter yourself. Are you suggesting that income tax apply only to luxuries. The idea of working dates way back to the division of labour. One of the key factors in productivity growth and living standards.


Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

That would be daft.
1. The PAYE is fully entitled to recover work related transportation expenses where they are directly involved in carrying out work related duties. Leaving home and actually turning up is not related to carrying out those duties. That has been the rule for years.
2. The unallowed deductions would simply be passed onto the consumer and wage earner. Do you really want that.


If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.

Many people do incorporate but doesn't help. Any wages drawn are subject to their marginal tax rate. Private use of corporate assets are subject to fringe benefits tax.





Driving to work is directly involved in carrying out said duties, if you did not drive to work you could not carry out said duties. If I work as a contractor, driving to where I work is a deduction, my car is a deduction. If I'm the owner of the business it's the same, driving to work is a deduction. It's no different to PAYE, you drive to where you are required to do a job. Where the costs are passed on to does not stop others from using it does it? You don't mind it for bosses, corporations and contractors. If the costs are passed on, so be it, just like they are for the aforementioned.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #68 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:23pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 1:44pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say it all you like without context you seem clueless on the subject. For an employee its not except when they are made to travel to a non-normal place or work.

For a self employed tradie it is a deduction.
The Tax office made a ruling ages ago (before I started working) that its not a deduction for an employee.


You too are hiding behind the current law. There is no difference between driving to work or as a contractor driving to a job. You need to transport yourself to where your services are required, one is a deduction and one is not. The reason for the tax office making this ruling is clear, loss of Govt income through deductions and that is the only reason, there is no defacto difference.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #69 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:38pm
 
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:27pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.


OK a company tax cut is designed promote business growth and investment. If that is realised and the cut is modest it could be tax revenue neutral or tax revenue could go up ... who knows clearly you don't. Why bother cutting company tax if activity does not grow ?

Also with business growth GST goes up to.

Throwing more money at dole bluggers just creates more dole bluggers !


Activity growing doesn't mean much - because associated expenses will grow as well.  You are thinking of absolute figures while i prefer to think of percentagewise.  Government grows as activity grows.  Either because of wage rise within the government, government spending increases to maintain inflation costs, or increase in expenditure from regulation due to increased activity. 

In any civilisation game, few people use absolute numbers and simply set a percentage.  You've been tricked.


You can prefer to do what you like it has no relevance, alternately if we don't have a competitive tax regime activity could go tax i.e both GST and company tax receipts go down so you weird theory about % is completely flawed !

Are you opposed to investment and business growth ?

You are also referring to a fixed rate of taxation which BTW does not guarantee fix tax collected so again you theory is completely flawed.

So using your logic if business activity declines then governments should start laying off staff instead of trying to actively promote business growth ?

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #70 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:44pm
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:23pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 1:44pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say it all you like without context you seem clueless on the subject. For an employee its not except when they are made to travel to a non-normal place or work.

For a self employed tradie it is a deduction.
The Tax office made a ruling ages ago (before I started working) that its not a deduction for an employee.


You too are hiding behind the current law. There is no difference between driving to work or as a contractor driving to a job. You need to transport yourself to where your services are required, one is a deduction and one is not. The reason for the tax office making this ruling is clear, loss of Govt income through deductions and that is the only reason, there is no defacto difference.



Not hiding behind the law at all if you don't like paying to go to work get your boss to pay for it or create a lobby group to change the law.

In the context of this thread we have the opportunity to make Australia competitive on taxation with many other cheaper countries and your running around going look over here ... ?

How will introducing such a tax rule change help the economy in any way ? You can borrow a microscope if you want to help you figure out your tiny minded answer Smiley

Now go hide behind that !
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #71 - Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:48pm
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:17pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:32am:
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

The whole point of work is to feed, clothe and shelter yourself. Are you suggesting that income tax apply only to luxuries. The idea of working dates way back to the division of labour. One of the key factors in productivity growth and living standards.


Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

That would be daft.
1. The PAYE is fully entitled to recover work related transportation expenses where they are directly involved in carrying out work related duties. Leaving home and actually turning up is not related to carrying out those duties. That has been the rule for years.
2. The unallowed deductions would simply be passed onto the consumer and wage earner. Do you really want that.


If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.

Many people do incorporate but doesn't help. Any wages drawn are subject to their marginal tax rate. Private use of corporate assets are subject to fringe benefits tax.





Driving to work is directly involved in carrying out said duties, if you did not drive to work you could not carry out said duties. If I work as a contractor, driving to where I work is a deduction, my car is a deduction. If I'm the owner of the business it's the same, driving to work is a deduction. It's no different to PAYE, you drive to where you are required to do a job. Where the costs are passed on to does not stop others from using it does it? You don't mind it for bosses, corporations and contractors. If the costs are passed on, so be it, just like they are for the aforementioned.




Clearly don't understand the tax rule, if a self employed contractor sets up an office they can not claim a tax deduction to drive to the office because that is their normal place of work. Your little rant is pure fiction. What they can claim is work travel to a job site ..... same rule which you don't seem to get the vast majority of employees work at their  same normal place. If you are going to criticise a rule at least understand it. What is confusing you is many or most self employed contractors declare their home as their office.


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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:56pm by RightSaidFred »  
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #72 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 12:27am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:47am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:42am:
The dole bludgers think hardworking businesses should give them more sit down money.


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Yeah well done fkkhead,
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #73 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:11am
 
Bam wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.


OK a company tax cut is designed promote business growth and investment. If that is realised and the cut is modest it could be tax revenue neutral or tax revenue could go up ... who knows clearly you don't. Why bother cutting company tax if activity does not grow ?

Except it won't. Corporations are just as likely to spend the extra money on stock buybacks or paying increased dividends to shareholders. Neither option promotes growth. Both options increase inequity which is already a major problem.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Also with business growth GST goes up to.

Businesses do not pay GST. They pass it on.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Throwing more money at dole bluggers just creates more dole bluggers !

No it doesn't, it grows the economy because people on low incomes must spend it all. When even the Business Council are calling for a substantial increase in the dole, it's something that should be considered. The dole is far too low, it keeps people out of work.

What needs to be addressed is the rampant discrimination against the unemployed, the chronic and intentional lack of jobs and the excessive casualisation of the workforce. Increasing the dole is needed, but so is greater access to good jobs for the unemployed.


Ok so companies say like Apple Australia prefer their head quarters to be in Dublin .... do they just like the wheather there ?

You are just bleating rubbish when the evidence is obvious.

Businesses certainly pay GST its a fact, go talk to an accountant. Its actually law that they collect GST on their sales they both pay GST and Collect GST all facts !

So you think throw a few bucks at dole bluggers will give the economy a boost ?

Discrimination by who ?
If someone is unemployed especially for a long period that tells you something ..... how would you propose a government addresses the objective fact that either someone is unemployable or prefers not to work ?

Its just BS left wing rubbish some people at the lower end of the job market might throw an opportunity at ex-cons, long term unemployed etc ..... most won't .... its personal choice by business owners.

You are very delusional to think throwing a few bucks at the unemployed will boost the economy that is the biggest piece of BS I have read in a long time.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #74 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:19pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:11am:
So you think throw a few bucks at dole bluggers will give the economy a boost ?

Discrimination by who ?

Idiots like you for a start. Employers, the right wing media, the wider community. How the fkk can any unemployed worker find work when everyone else is bashing them so hard with so much unwarranted discrimination?

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:11am:
If someone is unemployed especially for a long period that tells you something .....

No, it doesn't. Everyone is different. What if someone's had a few years out of the workforce to treat cancer?

You prefer the lazy right-wing approach of classifying and dumping people into categories. That's one reason why you fail to understand the issue.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:11am:
how would you propose a government addresses the objective fact that either someone is unemployable or prefers not to work ?

A false premise that shows you have no clue on this topic, none whatsoever. You're assuming without any evidence that it's only the fault of unemployed workers. That shows you have no clue. The economy only has enough jobs for 90% of its workforce, so how the fkk can the other 10% find work that does not exist?

The answer is obvious - create jobs, so everyone who wants a job can have one at the same time. When everyone who wants a job can have a job, then is the time to go after the few thousand people who refuse to work. It would be good to put the boot into the idle rich.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:11am:
just BS left wing rubbish some people at the lower end of the job market might throw an opportunity at ex-cons, long term unemployed etc ..... most won't .... its personal choice by business owners.

"most won't" ... another admission from you that discrimination against the unemployed exists. You're not very good at this, are you?

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:11am:
You are very delusional to think throwing a few bucks at the unemployed will boost the economy that is the biggest piece of BS I have read in a long time.

You have no idea at all how the economy works. Why do you bother?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #75 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm
 
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !



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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #76 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #77 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:41pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.



BigOl - it's not easy to get a job.

The Govt. is quick to screw you for every penny of tax
while you're working but
they don't want to help you when you're out of work.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #78 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:50pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.



BigOl - it's not easy to get a job.

The Govt. is quick to screw you for every penny of tax
while you're working but
they don't want to help you when you're out of work.



I know it isn't easy, I have been unemployed before.

It is still my responsibility to become employed, no-one else's, not even the government. It is the government's responsibility to ensure companies are able to operate, but not get me a job.


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #79 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:58pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:50pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.



BigOl - it's not easy to get a job.

The Govt. is quick to screw you for every penny of tax
while you're working but
they don't want to help you when you're out of work.



I know it isn't easy, I have been unemployed before.

It is still my responsibility to become employed, no-one else's, not even the government. It is the government's responsibility to ensure companies are able to operate, but not get me a job.





They could at least give you a health card -
you get nothing.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #80 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:26pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


The whole thread is dumb what is the correlation between corporate taxation  and unemployment benefits ?
Companies create jobs is it the weird notion that they must be punished with high tax for not creating enough jobs ?

Its not just BS leftous dogma it is just weird.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #81 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:38pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:26pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


The whole thread is dumb what is the correlation between corporate taxation  and unemployment benefits ?
Companies create jobs is it the weird notion that they must be punished with high tax for not creating enough jobs ?

Its not just BS leftous dogma it is just weird.



No - the idea is that it's not fair that many companies -
the largest companies - pay no tax.
If they paid some tax then people on the dole could get more money or
people who were unemployed could get money -
hardly anyone who applies for unemployment money gets any money.

Centerlink has a book called 1001 reasons not to pay you a penny
and they apply it viciously.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #82 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:43pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:38pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:26pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


The whole thread is dumb what is the correlation between corporate taxation  and unemployment benefits ?
Companies create jobs is it the weird notion that they must be punished with high tax for not creating enough jobs ?

Its not just BS leftous dogma it is just weird.



No - the idea is that it's not fair that many companies -
the largest companies - pay no tax.

Evidence?


If they paid some tax then people on the dole could get more money or
people who were unemployed could get money -
hardly anyone who applies for unemployment money gets any money.

Centerlink has a book called 1001 reasons not to pay you a penny
and they apply it viciously.


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The Progressive President
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #83 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm
 
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #84 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:27pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


Agree 100%

They are crafty in their tax evasion which is both wrong and immoral.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #85 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:34pm
 
goldkam wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:27pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


Agree 100%

They are crafty in their tax evasion which is both wrong and immoral.


tax evasion or tax avoidance? If you have evidence of the former call the ato.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #86 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #87 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm
 
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #88 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:00pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:34pm:
goldkam wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:27pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


Agree 100%

They are crafty in their tax evasion which is both wrong and immoral.


tax evasion or tax avoidance? If you have evidence of the former call the ato.


My apologies. Tax avoidance is a better phrase. I just don't have a spare $1 million to cover legal fees.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #89 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:20pm
 
And avoiding tax is not illegal. By claiming deductions on your tax return you are avoiding tax. Union fees - tax avoidance. Wink
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #90 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:35pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So, resorting to straw man arguments now? I never said that. I very specifically said the opposite.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

Another straw man argument. Where did I say "massive boost"?

Since you're obviously unable to figure it out for yourself, I'll spell it out for you. If you're living in poverty, spending all your money with unmet needs, any extra money received goes to meeting those unmet needs and that money goes into the economy. In the case of unemployed people, the income support is so low that it hinders the search for work. (Try looking for work if you're living in your car. Yes, that is happening.) Increasing the dole will help unemployed workers get off the dole faster by keeping them work ready.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

A straw man argument AGAIN. Three in one post. How about you try refuting the ACTUAL arguments rather than making up lies?

Unemployed workers aren't being discriminated against because they lack qualifications. They are discriminated against because they are UNEMPLOYED. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #91 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Then why the fkk are we spending billions every year on job services networks if they don't provide job services?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #92 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm
 
Cutting business tax won't immediately see gains in government revenue (if it does materially)- so what will get cut out in government expenditure?  Or perhaps increase taxes for the PAYE (except for the rich, they can get a tax cut - the liberal way).
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #93 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:51pm
 
stunspore wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
Cutting business tax won't immediately see gains in government revenue (if it does materially)- so what will get cut out in government expenditure?  Or perhaps increase taxes for the PAYE (except for the rich, they can get a tax cut - the liberal way).


How do you arrive at that?

If corporate tax rates are cut; the dividend tax rate is cut.

Now seeing as "the rich" are the shareholders, that means that proportion of income from shares will have paid less tax. That in turn means that "the rich" will have to pay more tax to make up for that shortfall.

In the case of YOUR superfund, which is heavily invested in shares, it will have a smaller bonus at the end of the year. Currently tax on Superfunds is 15%, tax on shares is 30% and the superfunds get a refund for that extra 15%. If the corporate tax rate drops to say 29% then that refund drops to 14%. So they are in effect losing that 1% to the tax office.

That is your retirement savings.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #94 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:59pm
 
Valkie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 6:23pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:47am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:45am:
What sort of idiot would assume that everyone on the dole is a bludger?                  Undecided



Nobody cares what you say little pecca, you reneged on your bet with Bias and lied about leaving this forum if Trump won the election



No, I agree with the baron

You are a liar and no one trusts you at cares for your inane comments.


Sad that he gets this for being 100% right ?


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #95 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 10:09pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Then why the fkk are we spending billions every year on job services networks if they don't provide job services?



Maybe you should ask them or the government.


Never used them so fkked if I know
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #96 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 10:12pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:58pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:50pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.



BigOl - it's not easy to get a job.

The Govt. is quick to screw you for every penny of tax
while you're working but
they don't want to help you when you're out of work.



I know it isn't easy, I have been unemployed before.

It is still my responsibility to become employed, no-one else's, not even the government. It is the government's responsibility to ensure companies are able to operate, but not get me a job.





They could at least give you a health card -
you get nothing.




Yep, no help at all, like I said it is my responsibility and no-one else's


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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #97 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:10pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:34am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 7:38am:
One rule for all certainly does not apply in taxation of income strands - there are first class and second class legal entities...........  Huh ..... and then the businesses even get up and demand a vote sometimes as if by some kind of right - they can have a vote when they pay the same taxes as the voters do.


Pay the same taxes as voters. They pay tax from the first dollar of profit,

With 90% of everything they earn being deductible (including past losses). For workers it's closer to 10%.

Horseshit. Earnings aren't deductable, only expenses are. Of course PAYEs have less deductions since they incur virtually no expenses. They do not buy stock. They do not employ other workers. They do not provide capital equipment. They do not lease or own a premise.  You're just being silly now.


crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
no tax free threshold

Carrying forward paper losses (many of them fictitious) is functionally the same as a tax free threshold. This alone reduces taxable profit for all large corporations combined by about 25%.

That would have to be the most imbecilic statement ever made on this board. Puts Armie and Juliar to shame. Carriage of losses are in no way the same as a tax free threshold. They actually have had to make prior losses. PAYEs don't ever make a loss so how in the fukk are they going to carry one forward.

Tell us all about these fictitious paper losses. If you haven't just pulled them out of your arse I'm sure the ATO would love know.


crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
and no progressive marginal rates either.

Incorrect. Small businesses have a 25% tax rate on taxable profits, large businesses have a 30% tax rate.

More rubbish. Small business tax is 27.5% not 25% and it isn't progressive. There is no tax free threshold, no 19c rate up to 37k either.
https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Company-tax/


crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
No dole when work dries up,

Incorrect. Businesses often receive grants to bail them out because socialising losses is a thing. They get other dole payments too. Their combined dole payments (in the form of corporate welfare, subsidies etc) is greater than the total that is paid out to unemployed workers.

Grants are not dole money when work dries up. It all depends on what you call corporate welfare too. Most of your notions would be horseshit anyway.


crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:42am:
no medicare, no pension, no family tax benefit.

Irrelevant. Businesses aren't actually people, despite legal fictions that may claim otherwise.

That's why they aren't taxed like people. Clown.


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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #98 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:33pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
stunspore wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
We can agree that you need a government and that funds are needed to pay them.  Rather than looking at actual amounts, how about looking it as a percentage.  How much percentage contribution should businesses and individual taxpayers should pay for government expenditure?  Cut business taxes, means the percentage contribution from individual taxpayers will go up.  Whether "increasing the pie" (without increasing resultant expenses) be enough to fund government expenditure, that's a different story.


OK a company tax cut is designed promote business growth and investment. If that is realised and the cut is modest it could be tax revenue neutral or tax revenue could go up ... who knows clearly you don't. Why bother cutting company tax if activity does not grow ?

Except it won't. Corporations are just as likely to spend the extra money on stock buybacks or paying increased dividends to shareholders. Neither option promotes growth. Both options increase inequity which is already a major problem.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Also with business growth GST goes up to.

Businesses do not pay GST. They pass it on.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Throwing more money at dole bluggers just creates more dole bluggers !

No it doesn't, it grows the economy because people on low incomes must spend it all. When even the Business Council are calling for a substantial increase in the dole, it's something that should be considered. The dole is far too low, it keeps people out of work.

What needs to be addressed is the rampant discrimination against the unemployed, the chronic and intentional lack of jobs and the excessive casualisation of the workforce. Increasing the dole is needed, but so is greater access to good jobs for the unemployed.


More catshit. If businesses aren't investing in the workers how do you explain the continuous rise in labour productivity over the decades.

...

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #99 - Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #100 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #101 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #102 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:22am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.


Yes I remember that they were trying to out cheap Virgin both made big losses.

For me I am no brand bunny if I need to fly I will go with the cheapest option ...... being cheap does not create brand loyalty. I am flying up to Cairns on Friday using Virgin and Jetstar ..... we just bought the cheapest option on each leg ..... I think all airlines suck.

Despite generating a pre-tax profit of last financial year of more than $1 billion, the flying kangaroo has paid no corporate tax since 2009, thanks to Australia's generous depreciation provisions and the ability to offset massive historical losses made by the company against past and future profits.

FYI seems to be both
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #103 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:34am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.



You wanted evidence and you got it -
a whole article for you to read.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #104 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:47am
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:34am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.



You wanted evidence and you got it -
a whole article for you to read.


All I see is evidence you can post a link.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #105 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 8:23am
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:34am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.



You wanted evidence and you got it -
a whole article for you to read.


I read the article. The author is as clueless as you are. They babble on and on about revenue. Fukkwits don't understand that corporations don't pay tax on revenue. They pay tax on their profits. Revenue and profit are not the same thing. Buy an accounting textbook and have a cup of tea.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #106 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 8:28am
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:22am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.


Yes I remember that they were trying to out cheap Virgin both made big losses.

For me I am no brand bunny if I need to fly I will go with the cheapest option ...... being cheap does not create brand loyalty. I am flying up to Cairns on Friday using Virgin and Jetstar ..... we just bought the cheapest option on each leg ..... I think all airlines suck.

Despite generating a pre-tax profit of last financial year of more than $1 billion, the flying kangaroo has paid no corporate tax since 2009, thanks to Australia's generous depreciation provisions and the ability to offset massive historical losses made by the company against past and future profits.

FYI seems to be both


I wouldn't be calling depreciation provisions generous. I'm sure the asset owners would prefer a deductible expense in the same tax year rather than writing down a portion over seven years.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #107 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 8:37am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 8:28am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:22am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.


Yes I remember that they were trying to out cheap Virgin both made big losses.

For me I am no brand bunny if I need to fly I will go with the cheapest option ...... being cheap does not create brand loyalty. I am flying up to Cairns on Friday using Virgin and Jetstar ..... we just bought the cheapest option on each leg ..... I think all airlines suck.

Despite generating a pre-tax profit of last financial year of more than $1 billion, the flying kangaroo has paid no corporate tax since 2009, thanks to Australia's generous depreciation provisions and the ability to offset massive historical losses made by the company against past and future profits.

FYI seems to be both


I wouldn't be calling depreciation provisions generous. I'm sure the asset owners would prefer a deductible expense in the same tax year rather than writing down a portion over seven years.


Its the ABC that wrote the piece, I thinks its logical to depreciate capital investments over the life cycle of that investment ..... yes I agree generous is incorrect. If you spend 1 billion then over time you write down 1 billion piece by piece its not extra Smiley
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #108 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:42am
 
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:17pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 10:32am:
Setanta wrote on Feb 17th, 2018 at 12:11am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Setanta wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 10:21pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 16th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
Corporations pay tax on profit. Qantas happen to be carrying forward some rather large losses.

Corporations pay tax on taxable profit.
I don't give a flying fukk about semantics.

If you don't "give a flying fukk about semantics", does that mean you won't object if I started calling all tax avoidance by corporations "tax evasion"?


I've never objected to anything you say. Agreeing with it is another matter.


I would say travelling to work is a work expense, not a private expense, why else would you be doing it? Workers should pay tax on profits not on income, ie what's left after making sure they feed and house themselves. They should be able to write off profit against their subsiduarie's losses, their families. Wink



You can say that but the tax office doesn't agree with you.

The whole point of work is to feed, clothe and shelter yourself. Are you suggesting that income tax apply only to luxuries. The idea of working dates way back to the division of labour. One of the key factors in productivity growth and living standards.


Ah so it's a case of legal definition rather than fact?
Would you be happy if the tax office agrees that any transportation for business is a private expense?

That would be daft.
1. The PAYE is fully entitled to recover work related transportation expenses where they are directly involved in carrying out work related duties. Leaving home and actually turning up is not related to carrying out those duties. That has been the rule for years.
2. The unallowed deductions would simply be passed onto the consumer and wage earner. Do you really want that.


If a person was considered "a body" like a corporation is, profit would be what they come out at above of the production/costs/etc. Maybe we should all incorporate ourselves. After all, all labour is contractual.

Many people do incorporate but doesn't help. Any wages drawn are subject to their marginal tax rate. Private use of corporate assets are subject to fringe benefits tax.





Driving to work is directly involved in carrying out said duties, if you did not drive to work you could not carry out said duties.

Not according to the tax office. It is considered commuting and a private expense. Australia is not alone with this.


If I work as a contractor, driving to where I work is a deduction, my car is a deduction.

Not entirely true. The only deductible travel is between sites during the course of their work. Travel between their residence is an allowable deduction if they are required to carry equipment for use directly related to their employment such as tools, ladders etc. Likewise, only the work related portion of the vehicle's use is deductible. Private usage is most certainly not. Log books or the 80/20 rule applies. The rules regarding private and business usage can be found here:
http://www.insightaccounting.com.au/2013/10/can-you-claim-a-deduction-for-home-t...


If I'm the owner of the business it's the same, driving to work is a deduction.

That's complete horseshit. The owner of the business does not get a free ride and the commute is not deductible. Those who benefit from the usage of company sponsored vehicle are hit with fringe benefits tax for the private portion of their usage.


It's no different to PAYE, you drive to where you are required to do a job. Where the costs are passed on to does not stop others from using it does it? You don't mind it for bosses, corporations and contractors. If the costs are passed on, so be it, just like they are for the aforementioned.

Just to be clear
Corporations don't travel to work
Bosses either pay for their own private travel or bear the FBT
Contractors have very specific rules imposed for work related vehicle expenses. Private portions are not deductible.


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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #109 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:49am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.


The 787 Dreamliners aren't cheap to buy the Scarebus 380s aren't cheap either.

Easy to see why they have losses in the billions with recent upgrades.
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #110 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:51am
 
lee wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
stunspore wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
Cutting business tax won't immediately see gains in government revenue (if it does materially)- so what will get cut out in government expenditure?  Or perhaps increase taxes for the PAYE (except for the rich, they can get a tax cut - the liberal way).


How do you arrive at that?

If corporate tax rates are cut; the dividend tax rate is cut.

Now seeing as "the rich" are the shareholders, that means that proportion of income from shares will have paid less tax. That in turn means that "the rich" will have to pay more tax to make up for that shortfall.

In the case of YOUR superfund, which is heavily invested in shares, it will have a smaller bonus at the end of the year. Currently tax on Superfunds is 15%, tax on shares is 30% and the superfunds get a refund for that extra 15%. If the corporate tax rate drops to say 29% then that refund drops to 14%. So they are in effect losing that 1% to the tax office.

That is your retirement savings.


Facts have no place in this discussion the dole bludgers want more sit down money.

If a business is making more money they can expand creating more jobs, the dole bludgers don't care about more jobs they always whine on why they can't get a job.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #111 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #112 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:08pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:49am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.


The 787 Dreamliners aren't cheap to buy the Scarebus 380s aren't cheap either.

Easy to see why they have losses in the billions with recent upgrades.


On top of that, the tripling of the fuel price between 2011 - 2014 didn't help either, along with the Virgin price war and getting Jetstar into the international ring.

...
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #113 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #114 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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RightSaidFred
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #115 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:16pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:49am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:57am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:53am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 11:55pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:44pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Evidence:

check out:
companies like Qantas, Apple, & Google  -
they pay little or no tax.

Meanwhile Joe Average gets screwed for every penny.


So no evidence??



Plenty of evidence:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-...


That's not evidence. It's just plain ignorance.


Yes QANTAS operates in a highly capital intensive industry without investment they would die ...... so they are investing big and claim capital depreciation ie. are spending big creating more GST receipts and boosting economic activity ..... and that is a bad thing ? We should should punish them for that  with more tax ?

I am not even sure what argument these guys are trying to bleat. Other then delusional rubbish and outright red herrings none of these feral leftwingers have presented anything to counter the idea of corporate tax cuts. I know a few but I prefer to sit back and watch these nut jobs run out of steam like a little mouse on a wheel.


Qantas didn't pay tax last FY as they are carrying forward prior losses. A couple of years back they made a loss of $2.4 billion. Need a fair chunk of profit to catch one.


The 787 Dreamliners aren't cheap to buy the Scarebus 380s aren't cheap either.

Easy to see why they have losses in the billions with recent upgrades.


The airline industry like Telco is highly capital intensive and they generally operate off a paper thin profit margin at best !

The muppets in this thread still seem to think corporate taxation is applied to revenue.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #116 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #117 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:25pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.


In Australia in practical terms we have full employment, theoretically economists regard 3% full employment, to get Australia below 5% would require a cultural change for many who prefer welfare. In some suburbs the unemployment rate is 1-2% so to claim there is an unemployment problem in this country would laughable .... it does not get better then it is now.

I think the other issue is driving an unemployment rate towards zero would out spend the welfare cost by huge factor.
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RightSaidFred
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #118 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:27pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy



In many areas that is a cultural norm, in SW Sydney they have a big inter-generational Welfare problem where they have 3+ generations in many families that have never worked, they are brought up to believe welfare is normal.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #119 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:34pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:27pm:
In many areas that is a cultural norm, in SW Sydney they have a big inter-generational Welfare problem where they have 3+ generations in many families that have never worked, they are brought up to believe welfare is normal.



Yep and we sit back and let it happen.

There is no such thing as government money, someone else had to earn it first then the government took it from them and hand it to those lazy bastards.

What a wonderful country we live in.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #120 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:50pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:34pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:27pm:
In many areas that is a cultural norm, in SW Sydney they have a big inter-generational Welfare problem where they have 3+ generations in many families that have never worked, they are brought up to believe welfare is normal.



Yep and we sit back and let it happen.

There is no such thing as government money, someone else had to earn it first then the government took it from them and hand it to those lazy bastards.

What a wonderful country we live in.



The area I grew up in once held the state record for youth unemployment, fortunately for me my father was a hard working post WII working immigrant who built up quite a big construction company. The whole concept of welfare was foreign to me growing up ! I worked as a builders labourer when I was 15 during school holidays and the odd weekends. I was a seriously cashed up teenager Smiley
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #121 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:23am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Then why the fkk are we spending billions every year on job services networks if they don't provide job services?

Maybe you should ask them or the government.

Never used them so fkked if I know

They are the remnants of the old CES after Howard destroyed it by privatising it. They have drifted far off the original scope of the CES and now don't do anything useful. They employ about 20,000 people who do nothing all day but tick boxes on screens. They get 100% of their funds from the government so they are effectively public servants. They cost about $5 billion a year, about half of what is paid out in dole payments. If you want to cut spending on the public service, these useless idiots should be right at the top of the list. Abolishing them and bringing back the CES would save a lot of money and improve service delivery.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #122 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:44am
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:25pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.


In Australia in practical terms we have full employment, theoretically economists regard 3% full employment, to get Australia below 5% would require a cultural change for many who prefer welfare. In some suburbs the unemployment rate is 1-2% so to claim there is an unemployment problem in this country would laughable .... it does not get better then it is now.

We don't have full employment. We haven't had real full employment for over 40 years. It was dishonest for the RBA or whoever it was to redefine "full employment" from the correct definition of "everyone has a job" to the deceitful "most people have job and fkk everyone who isn't working".

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:25pm:
I think the other issue is driving an unemployment rate towards zero would out spend the welfare cost by huge factor.

You're wrong. The amount of money that's spent on controlling and managing the unemployed is greater than the direct payments to them. Abolishing all of this wasteful spending and redirecting the money to unemployed people in exchange for useful work at award wages would have a comparable cost to the current system.

Unemployment benefits: $14,000 per person per year
Indue card: $10,000 per person per year (some people only, may change if abolished)
Job services networks: $7000 per person per year
Work for the Dole: $3000 per person per year
Other services: roughly $5000 per person per year
Total cost: $39,000 per year (all figures estimated - this estimate is probably on the low side because it doesn't include Centrelink's administration costs)

Full time work at the minimum wage: $37,000 per year, less tax = $33,000 per year

Even if we leave out the Indue card (because it's only a trial), it's possible to create jobs for 4 days of work a week with the same amount that is spent now.

Unemployment only exists because the government allows it to exist. The government could, if it chose, create enough jobs for everyone, and for about the same amount of money.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #123 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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lee
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #124 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:17am
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it.



Interesting. What government was elected in 1972?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #125 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:52am
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #126 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:09pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:23am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Then why the fkk are we spending billions every year on job services networks if they don't provide job services?

Maybe you should ask them or the government.

Never used them so fkked if I know

They are the remnants of the old CES after Howard destroyed it by privatising it. They have drifted far off the original scope of the CES and now don't do anything useful. They employ about 20,000 people who do nothing all day but tick boxes on screens. They get 100% of their funds from the government so they are effectively public servants. They cost about $5 billion a year, about half of what is paid out in dole payments. If you want to cut spending on the public service, these useless idiots should be right at the top of the list. Abolishing them and bringing back the CES would save a lot of money and improve service delivery.



Fair call.


Never used them, never even thought about using them to get a job
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #127 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:13pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


Not quite. Unemployment may have been lower but that is only because the participation rate was also lower. Average inflation is not much use. The period you describe was characterized by consistent boom and bust events and unstable inflation. It was also a period where monetary policy dealt sustained currency devaluations.

In a tight labour market inflation will set in regardless. The price of labour is no differnt to any other commodity and faces the same rules regarding supply and demand. Inflation targeting is just a means of choosing between stable, low inflation and employment. The two don't really coexist without eventually becoming unstuck.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #128 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:15pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:17am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it.



Interesting. What government was elected in 1972?


Not really all that relevant. The entire western world suffered the fallout of the US pulling the pin on the Bretton-Woods agreement.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #129 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:22pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy



That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #130 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:24pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


That is an interesting rant then why did unemployment surge back then under you fan party the ALP ?
Right now I would regard it as practical full employment..... most economist suggest 3% is theoretical full employment.... The reality in getting the unemployment rate much lower would cost a lot more then the welfare creating a lot of phoney unsustainable jobs. Some parts of Sydney the unemployment rate is below 2% your once again just sprouting left wing rubbish. Paying more for people on the dole just creates more dole bludgers ... I would gear the welfare tax mix so people who work low paid jobs get rewarded and people not trying to get a job get punished !

FYI tax cuts are about economic growth. Nothing to do with welfare.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #131 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:30pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:22pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy



That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.


100% correct we could spend money like a druken sailor creating phoney jobs like the Krudd and Dullard government did but that was unsustainable and they blew a big surplus for no return !

200k position versus 750k unemployed looks pretty natural for a country our size .... you are also right not all of them are lazy, these raw figures don't highlight the distribution of unemployed either I would guess where the vacancies exist a big chunk of them would be in low unemployment areas.

To get the rate much lower would require a lot of phoney economic measures that would not last !
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #132 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:59pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:30pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:22pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy



That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.


100% correct we could spend money like a druken sailor creating phoney jobs like the Krudd and Dullard government did but that was unsustainable and they blew a big surplus for no return !

200k position versus 750k unemployed looks pretty natural for a country our size .... you are also right not all of them are lazy, these raw figures don't highlight the distribution of unemployed either I would guess where the vacancies exist a big chunk of them would be in low unemployment areas.

To get the rate much lower would require a lot of phoney economic measures that would not last !


Not even close. The ratio of job seekers per position has just about trebled over the last decade. This at a time when wages growth is virtually non-existent. Certainly not natural.

...
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #133 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:18pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:30pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:22pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy



That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.


100% correct we could spend money like a druken sailor creating phoney jobs like the Krudd and Dullard government did but that was unsustainable and they blew a big surplus for no return !

200k position versus 750k unemployed looks pretty natural for a country our size .... you are also right not all of them are lazy, these raw figures don't highlight the distribution of unemployed either I would guess where the vacancies exist a big chunk of them would be in low unemployment areas.

To get the rate much lower would require a lot of phoney economic measures that would not last !


Not even close. The ratio of job seekers per position has just about trebled over the last decade. This at a time when wages growth is virtually non-existent. Certainly not natural.

http://unemployedworkersunion.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/job-seeker-V-Job-va...


Looks natural to me would need to see the distribution of where job seekers per job are higher and why .... many companies are struggling to find qualified people ...... motivation must be at play. Its the case where I am working.

Not sure what your concerned about I have seen far worse unemployment figures.

I do agree that wage growth being flat is odd.
Might be related some how to interest rates but just guessing to be honest.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #134 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:21pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:17am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it.



Interesting. What government was elected in 1972?

Inflation spiked to 8% in 1972 before the December 1972 election, and then the global oil shock made things worse by causing stagflation around the world. Stagflation was an economic problem that was not known to be possible according to economic theory until it actually happened.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #135 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm
 
Auggie wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:52am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??

The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #136 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:31pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:18pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:30pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:22pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.



And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.



I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.



You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are.  It's just Im not one of those people


What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy



That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.


100% correct we could spend money like a druken sailor creating phoney jobs like the Krudd and Dullard government did but that was unsustainable and they blew a big surplus for no return !

200k position versus 750k unemployed looks pretty natural for a country our size .... you are also right not all of them are lazy, these raw figures don't highlight the distribution of unemployed either I would guess where the vacancies exist a big chunk of them would be in low unemployment areas.

To get the rate much lower would require a lot of phoney economic measures that would not last !


Not even close. The ratio of job seekers per position has just about trebled over the last decade. This at a time when wages growth is virtually non-existent. Certainly not natural.

http://unemployedworkersunion.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/job-seeker-V-Job-va...


Looks natural to me would need to see the distribution of where job seekers per job are higher and why .... many companies are struggling to find qualified people ...... motivation must be at play. Its the case where I am working.

Not sure what your concerned about I have seen far worse unemployment figures.

I do agree that wage growth being flat is odd.
Might be related some how to interest rates but just guessing to be honest.


Just because it was higher once doesn't mean forget about it.

Wages growth is flat because total factor productivity is flat. One of the reasons behind the push for lowering corporate tax is because of this. Unfortunately, the Neanderthals don't get it.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #137 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:52am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??

The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.


So, public sector jobs??

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I actually agree that the government should give educated, well-bodied and committed people a job in the public sector. That'd be a great way to increase employment and give experience to young people.
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crocodile
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #138 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:50pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:21pm:
lee wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:17am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it.



Interesting. What government was elected in 1972?

Inflation spiked to 8% in 1972 before the December 1972 election, and then the global oil shock made things worse by causing stagflation around the world. Stagflation was an economic problem that was not known to be possible according to economic theory until it actually happened.


Inflation was gathering from the mid 60s onwards in response to widening US trade deficits and their penchant for printing money in an attempt to finance the Vietnam war. It took a few years for the fixed currency stakeholders to realise that the US dollar was not backed by gold reserves dollar for dollar.

Under Bretton Woods foreign holders of US currency were permitted to exchange them for gold. When the French government in 1971 attempted to exchange their US dollars for gold it was soon revealed that the US treasury had only 30% coverage of gold for currency. Nixon promptly pulled out of the agreement.

Naturally the US dollar collapsed. The Arabs were being paid in US dollars for their oil but they were having none of that since the currency was not backed by gold and quickly losing value. In response they quadrupled the oil price.

Inflation took off understandably. Not a whole lot Whitlam could have done about it. The resulting stagflation was unheard of and threw the work of Phillips out the window. The dictum that high unemployment went with low inflation was killed and economists spent many years trying to end it. Paul Volker was the first to go against Freidman and brought US inflation under control after the recession of the early 80s. The rest had to wait until the recession of the early 90s.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #139 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:52pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:52am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??

The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.


A job guarantee is a cornerstone of the MMT adherents. I'd be willing to give it a shot.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #140 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 5:31pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:52am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??

The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.


Yet the economy is stable and the unemployment rate is low ?
In fact many industries are reporting a skills shortage which suggest job alignment / motivation is not there.

What your suggesting is unsustainable rubbish.
The pubic service is over bloated as it is.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #141 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:38pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 5:31pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 11:52am:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:56am:
crocodile wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:56am:
BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !






Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.


Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.


But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??

The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.


Yet the economy is stable and the unemployment rate is low ?

That's an illusion. Unemployment is only being held down because wages growth is in the shithouse. GDP growth is below trend and productivity is declining. Private capital expenditure is well down. Household savings are still up meaning people are not spending. None of this points to any degree of strength. Rather, we're just hanging in there.

In fact many industries are reporting a skills shortage which suggest job alignment / motivation is not there.

The good ol' deadly embrace. Skills shortages are a result of declining productivity. But productivity won't lift without skills. One of the reasons why the tax cut is desperately important. Without the necessary rise in business investment, wages and productivity will not grow.


What your suggesting is unsustainable rubbish.

It is only unsustainable rubbish if the marginal cost is greater than the system we currently have or it does not provide any input to production. May not be a silver bullet but certainly worth thinking about.


The pubic service is over bloated as it is.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #142 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:25pm
 
Tax cut is not needed.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #143 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:33pm
 
The inverse reverse obverse inverted illogic of the Lefties defies comprehension and the funny part is they don't understand it either as they are just parroting the lying Socialist trash coming from the slimy GetUp!.

Good to see the croc is up and flying with graphs plucked from the ether as he makes "economic theory" up as he goes.

The simple truth is that WELFARE is unproductive waste and that is why it is so favored by the unproductive wasteful Lefties.

The union controlled Labor's "Socialist solution" is to borrow endlessly to pay for their unsustainable wasteful unproductive WELFARE.

The genuine practical solution to being able to pay for the Lefties' unproductive wasteful WELFARE is to boost the economy by encouraging business and boosting exports to increase the money in the economy just as China has done and Trump is doing.

As business increases as it is doing as a result of Mal's Trump initiatives then competition for labor will increase and companies will compete for labor and following the supply and demand concept wages will rise to win the in short supply labor.

Treasurer Scott Morrison went on the attack in Parliament yesterday, claiming the link between company tax cuts and higher wages was “pretty simple”:

“If you want businesses to pay workers more, you don’t force them to pay the government more,” Mr Morrison told parliament.

“If you want businesses to spend more on employing more Australians, you don’t force them to spend more on higher taxes being paid to the government. The Labor Party is standing between a wage rise and Australian workers.”

Mr Morrison seized on comments by BHP chief executive ­Andrew Mackenzie in The Australian yesterday urging the Senate to pass the government’s 10-year tax plan.

Mr Mackenzie said there was now an “urgency” for Australia to keep up with the rest of the world, and BHP would invest more in Australia if taxes went down.

“Business is making it very clear,” Mr Morrison said.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #144 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:48pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:38pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 5:31pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.

What your suggesting is unsustainable rubbish.

It is only unsustainable rubbish if the marginal cost is greater than the system we currently have or it does not provide any input to production. May not be a silver bullet but certainly worth thinking about.

It all depends on the nature of the work. For example, someone could be removing noxious weeds and rubbish from national parks or cataloguing the names on war memorials. Neither of these provide actual inputs to production but would be useful work. And who knows? Removing noxious weeds could help farmers later by preventing those weeds from spreading to adjacent farmland. A complete catalogue of names on war memorials could promote war memorial tourism by allowing relatives to visit the war memorial with their ancestors' names on it.

The work doesn't have to provide actual "input to production". It just has to be useful to someone else in some way. It would be a lot better than the useless nonsense that's foisted on unemployed workers with Work for the Dole such as digging pointless holes and filling them in again.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #145 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:53pm
 
Investment is your savings.

Would
you
give your savings to invest in the unemployed (government services) or to someone who would generate economically productive employment and profit - business?



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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #146 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:09pm
 
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:48pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:38pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 5:31pm:
Bam wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
The current economic climate would require new measures to eradicate involuntary unemployment. A Job Guarantee is one such measure that has a lot of promise as an economic stabiliser.

A Job Guarantee is a program where the government offers alternative employment for people who cannot find work in the private sector. It would offer work at award wages to anyone who wants it. It would stabilise the economy by employing more people when the economy was weak and more people when the economy contracted. It would have interesting side effects, such as eradicating sub-minimum work and putting downward pressure on casualisation.

The RBA could still control demand by altering interest rates, but that burden would no longer fall disproportionately on just a few people but be spread more equitably around the economy.

What your suggesting is unsustainable rubbish.

It is only unsustainable rubbish if the marginal cost is greater than the system we currently have or it does not provide any input to production. May not be a silver bullet but certainly worth thinking about.

It all depends on the nature of the work. For example, someone could be removing noxious weeds and rubbish from national parks or cataloguing the names on war memorials. Neither of these provide actual inputs to production but would be useful work. And who knows? Removing noxious weeds could help farmers later by preventing those weeds from spreading to adjacent farmland. A complete catalogue of names on war memorials could promote war memorial tourism by allowing relatives to visit the war memorial with their ancestors' names on it.

The work doesn't have to provide actual "input to production". It just has to be useful to someone else in some way. It would be a lot better than the useless nonsense that's foisted on unemployed workers with Work for the Dole such as digging pointless holes and filling them in again.


All of those things are inputs to production in some way. Removing noxious weeds from national parks may well aid tourism to the park. Much the same as cataloguing names. The leisure, entertainment and tourism industries are legitimate products.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #147 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:12pm
 
juliar wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:33pm:
The inverse reverse obverse inverted illogic of the Lefties defies comprehension and the funny part is they don't understand it either as they are just parroting the lying Socialist trash coming from the slimy GetUp!.

Good to see the croc is up and flying with graphs plucked from the ether as he makes "economic theory" up as he goes.

The simple truth is that WELFARE is unproductive waste and that is why it is so favored by the unproductive wasteful Lefties.

The union controlled Labor's "Socialist solution" is to borrow endlessly to pay for their unsustainable wasteful unproductive WELFARE.

The genuine practical solution to being able to pay for the Lefties' unproductive wasteful WELFARE is to boost the economy by encouraging business and boosting exports to increase the money in the economy just as China has done and Trump is doing.

As business increases as it is doing as a result of Mal's Trump initiatives then competition for labor will increase and companies will compete for labor and following the supply and demand concept wages will rise to win the in short supply labor.

Treasurer Scott Morrison went on the attack in Parliament yesterday, claiming the link between company tax cuts and higher wages was “pretty simple”:

“If you want businesses to pay workers more, you don’t force them to pay the government more,” Mr Morrison told parliament.

“If you want businesses to spend more on employing more Australians, you don’t force them to spend more on higher taxes being paid to the government. The Labor Party is standing between a wage rise and Australian workers.”

Mr Morrison seized on comments by BHP chief executive ­Andrew Mackenzie in The Australian yesterday urging the Senate to pass the government’s 10-year tax plan.

Mr Mackenzie said there was now an “urgency” for Australia to keep up with the rest of the world, and BHP would invest more in Australia if taxes went down.

“Business is making it very clear,” Mr Morrison said.


Welcome back Sweetheart. Good to see my favourite comedic contributor. As usual, completely vacuous content but funny just the same.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #148 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:15pm
 


If you want a laugh you can't go too wrong reading Bams postings.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #149 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:27pm
 
milktrees,

TRUTH is an alien force in the crumbling abandoned world of political correctness.

the croc's aren't even good enough for a laugh as he makes it up as he goes.


Croc, when will you learn the minute you try unsuccessfully to mock the poster you lose the argument because you state up front you don't understand the subject.

See an informed articulate person (which you certainly are not) simply discusses the actual topic and doesn't need to try to mock and knock the poster.

See how effective Trump's reducing the company tax is as now companies are jostling to get into the USA and create lots of jobs.

Companies employ people - so no companies then no employment.

The dumb Lefties don't relate wages to productivity but instead relate wages to the cost of living and don't care how their welfare is paid for.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #150 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:18pm
 
juliar wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:27pm:
milktrees,

TRUTH is an alien force in the crumbling abandoned world of political correctness.

the croc's aren't even good enough for a laugh as he makes it up as he goes.


Croc, when will you learn the minute you try unsuccessfully to mock the poster you lose the argument because you state up front you don't understand the subject.

See an informed articulate person (which you certainly are not) simply discusses the actual topic and doesn't need to try to mock and knock the poster.

See how effective Trump's reducing the company tax is as now companies are jostling to get into the USA and create lots of jobs.

Companies employ people - so no companies then no employment.

The dumb Lefties don't relate wages to productivity but instead relate wages to the cost of living and don't care how their welfare is paid for.


Yes indeed. Your words:

Quote:
Good to see the croc is up and flying with graphs plucked from the ether as he makes "economic theory" up as he goes.


Good to see that the kettle and pot still love each other.

One day you will be hit by a thunderbolt and come to the stark reality that nobody takes any of your missives seriously. Every reader already understands that these contributions are just the ramblings of an attention seeking stirrer without any real intellect just attempting to take the piss.

That's why it is funny. Nobody cares.

Hove a lovely evening.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #151 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:22am
 


Are you two going to snog now?
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #152 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:29am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:53pm:
Investment is your savings.

Would
you
give your savings to invest in the unemployed (government services) or to someone who would generate economically productive employment and profit - business?





It's not about that.

It's about a Govt. that taxes the living Jesus out of you when
times are good and you have a job
but then doesn't want to know you when you lose your job
through no fault of your own.
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #153 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:47am
 
miketrees wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:22am:
Are you two going to snog now?


No, I have a wife for that.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #154 - Feb 22nd, 2018 at 7:41am
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:29am:
Frank wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:53pm:
Investment is your savings.

Would
you
give your savings to invest in the unemployed (government services) or to someone who would generate economically productive employment and profit - business?





It's not about that.

It's about a Govt. that taxes the living Jesus out of you when
times are good and you have a job
but then doesn't want to know you when you lose your job
through no fault of your own.


Yet our welfare system is regarded as one of the most generous in the world ?

What do you expect the government do create an artificial job for you ? Business succeed and fail all the time you need to get over it and move on.

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #155 - Feb 22nd, 2018 at 8:54am
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 7:41am:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:29am:
Frank wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:53pm:
Investment is your savings.

Would
you
give your savings to invest in the unemployed (government services) or to someone who would generate economically productive employment and profit - business?





It's not about that.

It's about a Govt. that taxes the living Jesus out of you when
times are good and you have a job
but then doesn't want to know you when you lose your job
through no fault of your own.


Yet our welfare system is regarded as one of the most generous in the world ?

Where do you get that crap from? You're just making that up. Try comparing unemployment benefits in the OECD and you'll see the outrageous lies you're telling here.

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 7:41am:
What do you expect the government do create an artificial job for you ? Business succeed and fail all the time you need to get over it and move on.

Unemployed retrenched workers certainly want to move on and find a new job. The rampant discrimination against them prevents this.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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