Australian Politics Forum - Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole

RightSaidFred

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #120 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:50pm

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:34pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:27pm:

In many areas that is a cultural norm, in SW Sydney they have a big inter-generational Welfare problem where they have 3+ generations in many families that have never worked, they are brought up to believe welfare is normal.

Yep and we sit back and let it happen.

There is no such thing as government money, someone else had to earn it first then the government took it from them and hand it to those lazy bastards.

What a wonderful country we live in.

The area I grew up in once held the state record for youth unemployment, fortunately for me my father was a hard working post WII working immigrant who built up quite a big construction company. The whole concept of welfare was foreign to me growing up ! I worked as a builders labourer when I was 15 during school holidays and the odd weekends. I was a seriously cashed up teenager

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Bam

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #121 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:23am

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 10:09pm:

Bam wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 8:40pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Then why the fkk are we spending billions every year on job services networks if they don't provide job services?

Maybe you should ask them or the government.

Never used them so fkked if I know

They are the remnants of the old CES after Howard destroyed it by privatising it. They have drifted far off the original scope of the CES and now don't do anything useful. They employ about 20,000 people who do nothing all day but tick boxes on screens. They get 100% of their funds from the government so they are effectively public servants. They cost about $5 billion a year, about half of what is paid out in dole payments. If you want to cut spending on the public service, these useless idiots should be right at the top of the list. Abolishing them and bringing back the CES would save a lot of money and improve service delivery.

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Bam

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #122 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:44am

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

In Australia in practical terms we have full employment, theoretically economists regard 3% full employment, to get Australia below 5% would require a cultural change for many who prefer welfare. In some suburbs the unemployment rate is 1-2% so to claim there is an unemployment problem in this country would laughable .... it does not get better then it is now.

We don't have full employment. We haven't had real full employment for over 40 years. It was dishonest for the RBA or whoever it was to redefine "full employment" from the correct definition of "everyone has a job" to the deceitful "most people have job and fkk everyone who isn't working".

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

I think the other issue is driving an unemployment rate towards zero would out spend the welfare cost by huge factor.

You're wrong. The amount of money that's spent on controlling and managing the unemployed is greater than the direct payments to them. Abolishing all of this wasteful spending and redirecting the money to unemployed people in exchange for useful work at award wages would have a comparable cost to the current system.

Unemployment benefits: $14,000 per person per year
Indue card: $10,000 per person per year (some people only, may change if abolished)
Job services networks: $7000 per person per year
Work for the Dole: $3000 per person per year
Other services: roughly $5000 per person per year
Total cost: $39,000 per year (all figures estimated - this estimate is probably on the low side because it doesn't include Centrelink's administration costs)

Full time work at the minimum wage: $37,000 per year, less tax = $33,000 per year

Even if we leave out the Indue card (because it's only a trial), it's possible to create jobs for 4 days of work a week with the same amount that is spent now.

Unemployment only exists because the government allows it to exist. The government could, if it chose, create enough jobs for everyone, and for about the same amount of money.

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Bam

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #123 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:56am

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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lee

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #124 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:17am

Bam wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:56am:

Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it.

Interesting. What government was elected in 1972?

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Auggie

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #125 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:52am

Bam wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:56am:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.

But surely though, changes to the global economy present different circumstances than in 1972? Would the measures implemented during those 20 years work as effectively now in the current economic climate??

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BigOl64

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #126 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:09pm

Bam wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:23am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 10:09pm:

Bam wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 8:40pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Then why the fkk are we spending billions every year on job services networks if they don't provide job services?

Maybe you should ask them or the government.

Never used them so fkked if I know

They are the remnants of the old CES after Howard destroyed it by privatising it. They have drifted far off the original scope of the CES and now don't do anything useful. They employ about 20,000 people who do nothing all day but tick boxes on screens. They get 100% of their funds from the government so they are effectively public servants. They cost about $5 billion a year, about half of what is paid out in dole payments. If you want to cut spending on the public service, these useless idiots should be right at the top of the list. Abolishing them and bringing back the CES would save a lot of money and improve service delivery.

Fair call.

Never used them, never even thought about using them to get a job

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crocodile

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #127 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:13pm

Bam wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:56am:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.

Not quite. Unemployment may have been lower but that is only because the participation rate was also lower. Average inflation is not much use. The period you describe was characterized by consistent boom and bust events and unstable inflation. It was also a period where monetary policy dealt sustained currency devaluations.

In a tight labour market inflation will set in regardless. The price of labour is no differnt to any other commodity and faces the same rules regarding supply and demand. Inflation targeting is just a means of choosing between stable, low inflation and employment. The two don't really coexist without eventually becoming unstuck.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #128 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:15pm

lee wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:17am:

Bam wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:56am:

Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it.

Interesting. What government was elected in 1972?

Not really all that relevant. The entire western world suffered the fallout of the US pulling the pin on the Bretton-Woods agreement.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #129 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:22pm

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:23pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 12:57pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.

I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.

You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are. It's just Im not one of those people

What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy

That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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RightSaidFred

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #130 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:24pm

Bam wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 10:56am:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

Unemployed workers should be compensated a lot more for being forced to take one for the team against their will.

A better approach is to recognise that the RBA's method of targeting inflation is based on neoliberal mythology. The proposition that unemployment is necessary to control inflation is simply a lie. Australia had full employment for over 30 years from the Second World War to about 1972. Once the war inflation washed out of the economy, the period between 1952 and 1972 had inflation averaging 3.0% and unemployment averaging 1.2%. That was the most prosperous time in Australian history because everyone shared it. It is certainly possible to keep inflation and unemployment low at the same time because it's been done before. Restoring real full employment should be considered.

That is an interesting rant then why did unemployment surge back then under you fan party the ALP ?
Right now I would regard it as practical full employment..... most economist suggest 3% is theoretical full employment.... The reality in getting the unemployment rate much lower would cost a lot more then the welfare creating a lot of phoney unsustainable jobs. Some parts of Sydney the unemployment rate is below 2% your once again just sprouting left wing rubbish. Paying more for people on the dole just creates more dole bludgers ... I would gear the welfare tax mix so people who work low paid jobs get rewarded and people not trying to get a job get punished !

FYI tax cuts are about economic growth. Nothing to do with welfare.

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RightSaidFred

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #131 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:30pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:22pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:23pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 1:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 12:57pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 5:20pm:

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 18^th, 2018 at 4:50pm:

Bam

So for all unemployed its someone else's fault ?
You really are pathetic.

So which economic theory covers your silly notion that throw cash at dole bludgers will provide a massive boost to the economy ? Fairies at the bottom of the garden Volume 1
FYI you failed to address that key point in your little rant.

When people hire someone they are looking for qualifications and experience in relevant fields if you think that is discrimination then you are truly an idiot you don't mind throwing mindless insults around so live up that moron !

Even if it is someone else's fault they find themselves unemployed, it is not someone else's responsibility to find them a job.

Personal responsibility is just that.

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple. The RBA actively targets the inflation rate by manipulating the size of the money supply. Consequently, full employment is not achievable. There will always be a small pool of unemployed as a result of the tradeoff between employment and inflation due to shrinking labour supply. It is government policy so it seems reasonable that the displaced are not treated like child molesters.

And it is my responsibility to make sure I am not one of the ones in that small pool.

Not everyone has the ability to look after themselves, in this country not only do we expect the government to micro manage every aspect of our lives, we demand to be spoon fed from the cradle to the grave.

I might agree with you if it were not government policy that creates the pool in the first place.

You don't have to agree with me, if you are one of those people that expects or demands governmental assistance then that is who you are. It's just Im not one of those people

What I do has nothing at all to do with government policy

That's not really the point. Today, right now there are 720,000 unemployed people and a swag more on part time work. There are only 215,000 job vacancies. All the hand wringing and finger pointing at lazy arses won't make the problem go away that even if every available job was filled there will be 1/2 million people without a job or the means to find one. Some of it a direct result of policy settings.

100% correct we could spend money like a druken sailor creating phoney jobs like the Krudd and Dullard government did but that was unsustainable and they blew a big surplus for no return !

200k position versus 750k unemployed looks pretty natural for a country our size .... you are also right not all of them are lazy, these raw figures don't highlight the distribution of unemployed either I would guess where the vacancies exist a big chunk of them would be in low unemployment areas.

To get the rate much lower would require a lot of phoney economic measures that would not last !

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crocodile

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Re: Call To Ditch Tax Cuts And Lift The Dole
Reply #132 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:59pm

RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:30pm: