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Democracy expressed as a percentage (Read 1085 times)
freediver
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #45 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 9:28am
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 3:09pm:
Nope....
How about you stop making up crap about what I think....  YOU are no mindreader you have enough trouble with just ordinary reading.
How about you address what I actually say...?

BTW I know how it works and have for years YOU on the other hand failed years ago in understanding what OPV was and is.  Seems to me YOU are still having problems all round.

If you don't understand how factions control parties and distort the vote, then I cant help you there either.


I responded to exactly what you posted. I agree with you that factions control parties. I just don't see how you leap from their to undemocratic.

Try again.

freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 12:37pm:
Grendel wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:48pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
Quote:
But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to


Optional preferential voting, as it was practices here, was still compulsory. It was an absurdly irrational combination, born of lack of understanding of how our voting system works. If there were seven candidates, none of which you liked, you were still compelled to vote for one, but in the next election when there were only 6 of them, voting was either compulsory or optional, depending on who your first preference was. The result being that compulsory votes were up against optional votes.
Nope and YOU'VE never understood Optional preferential voting anyway.
1.  You don't have to vote if you don't like anyone.  Just put the ballot paper unmarked in the box or pocket it.
2.  In optional preferential voting you only need to number the boxes of candidates you would like to vote for in the order you prefer them... 
Hence your vote will never go to a person or party you do not wish it to.


Quote:
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.


It is completely irrelevant to whether we have democracy. 
Nope...  factionalism distorts democracy... voting is no longer an individual choice.



So your vision of "true democracy" involves people being compelled to turn up but not lodge a valid ballot paper?

Under CPV, your vote only ever ends up with your preferred candidate out of those who are in the running. Whether you 'like' or 'dislike' them is irrelevant. You can only ever choose from those who are in the running. You could like all of them. You could like none of them. It is irrelevant to your ability to choose which one you most prefer, which is in reality what you are doing when you rank candidates, if you understand how it works.

True democracy means the will of the majority. The majority is a faction. Democracy is by definition factional.

The internal workings of an institution such as a political party are irrelevant to whether we have a true democracy. At the end of the day, all they can do is endorse a candidate. That candidate still has to run against all the other candidates, who can be nominated as non-factionally as they like, so long as they have a faction of sufficient size endorsing their nomination.

How exactly does it cease being your individual choice who you vote for if you don't like how a party is run? It is still your choice whether to vote for their candidate.


Quote:
But then rusted-ons vote for parties no matter who they put up, not individuals and not based on how intelligent or competent they may be.


So it is undemocratic because you disagree with how they vote?
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Grendel
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #46 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 11:08am
 
Nope....
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freediver
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #47 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 6:23pm
 
Try using your big boy words Grendel.
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Grendel
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #48 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 7:21am
 
Try being an adult fd.
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freediver
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #49 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:18am
 
If people want to vote on party lines, surely that is their choice, an entirely valid choice, and entirely democratic.
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #50 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:25am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 5th, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Quote:
30%.   Around 70% of government is carried on by unelected bodies


And what if this reflects the will of the people?




Look at 'democratic' Turkey today.

Turks, through the ballot box, are empowering Recep Tayyip Erdogan, to the point where he is already, an unassailable 'strongman'/dictator.

With the blessing of the majority of the Turkish people!


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #51 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:37am
 



QUESTION;
Can a nominal 'democracy' which has been compromised by [some] corrupt practices, and by some [some] corrupt individuals who are in positions with a high degree of authority [within the governing system],      still properly perform as a pristine type of democracy ?

This corrupting process does tend to occur [especially] within democratic governing systems. !!

Just look around the world.   ....especially in Africa, but to a more subtle degree even withing many 1st world nations.



What is the answer ?

How can true liberties and freedoms be protected, for all ?

Or perhaps they cannot be ?


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #52 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:23pm
 
Daron Acemoglu gave a very thorough answer in this book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail
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Yadda
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #53 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 2:32pm
 



Quote:

Acemoglu and Robinson's major thesis is that economic prosperity depends above all on the inclusiveness of economic and political institutions.

Institutions are "inclusive" when many people have a say in political decision-making, as opposed to cases where a small group of people control political institutions and are unwilling to change.

They argue that a functioning democratic and pluralistic state guarantees the rule of law.

The authors also argue that inclusive institutions promote economic prosperity because they provide an incentive structure that allows talents and creative ideas to be rewarded......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail


'They argue that a functioning democratic and pluralistic state guarantees the rule of law.'

I would have rather expressed what they said, the other way around...

Where a functioning justice system and the rule of law in a nation, properly protects those who work [and invest their own resources] for reward,      i.e. protects them from those who would rob them, then in such a political environment, a prosperous and stable and pluralistic state may also emerge.

1/ Respect for open truth.
2/ Justice.
3/ Peace.
4/ Prosperity and political stability. [...which will both eventually fail, where #1 becomes 'absent']

Each subsequent condition [environment], relies upon the previous condition being present.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #54 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:06pm
 
He says it both ways. He describes it as a naturally polarising spectrum. That is, freedom and democracy are self-reinforcing, as are their opposites.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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