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Democracy expressed as a percentage (Read 1760 times)
Grendel
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #30 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
Quote:
But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to


Optional preferential voting, as it was practices here, was still compulsory. It was an absurdly irrational combination, born of lack of understanding of how our voting system works. If there were seven candidates, none of which you liked, you were still compelled to vote for one, but in the next election when there were only 6 of them, voting was either compulsory or optional, depending on who your first preference was. The result being that compulsory votes were up against optional votes.
Nope and YOU'VE never understood Optional preferential voting anyway.
1.  You don't have to vote if you don't like anyone.  Just put the ballot paper unmarked in the box or pocket it.
2.  In optional preferential voting you only need to number the boxes of candidates you would like to vote for in the order you prefer them... 
Hence your vote will never go to a person or party you do not wish it to.


Quote:
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.


It is completely irrelevant to whether we have democracy. 
Nope...  factionalism distorts democracy... voting is no longer an individual choice.

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RightSaidFred
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #31 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:39am:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?


The whole thread is pointless democracy is a binary thing you either select who governs via public consensus using various different types of government/voting processes or you don't.

Its very trivial complaining about going for a 5-10 minute walk and getting your named ticked off if that annoys you you might be happier with a totalitarian dictatorship where you don't have to even think about anything where speaking out can see you removed from the gene pool !


It is a spectrum, albeit a naturally polarising one.

Quote:
But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to


Optional preferential voting, as it was practices here, was still compulsory. It was an absurdly irrational combination, born of lack of understanding of how our voting system works. If there were seven candidates, none of which you liked, you were still compelled to vote for one, but in the next election when there were only 6 of them, voting was either compulsory or optional, depending on who your first preference was. The result being that compulsory votes were up against optional votes.

Quote:
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.


It is completely irrelevant to whether we have democracy.

100% disagree the critical point of a democracy is do you get to choose who is in power, after that you just have different styles of democracy.

Not a spectrum at all.

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Bobby
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #32 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:28pm
 
Elections give people the illusion of choice -

there is no choice.
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Bobby
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #33 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:31pm
 
Jump to 2:00

The illusion of choice.

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Mr Hammer
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #34 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:40pm
 
Australia (or other western-style democracies) are flawed in regards to the preferential voting system but compared to living in North Korea...
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RightSaidFred
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #35 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 5:47am
 
Bobby wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:28pm:
Elections give people the illusion of choice -

there is no choice.


Yes there is there are various parties you can choose.
What do you actually expect ?
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RightSaidFred
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #36 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 5:48am
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:40pm:
Australia (or other western-style democracies) are flawed in regards to the preferential voting system but compared to living in North Korea...


No preferential voting is also flawed as the minority could determine who governs
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Grendel
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #37 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 6:58am
 
The problem is that Optional preferential is not the norm...

That means that your vote can end up with someone you would not want to vote for, it favours the 2 major parties.
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RightSaidFred
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #38 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 8:21am
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 6:58am:
The problem is that Optional preferential is not the norm...

That means that your vote can end up with someone you would not want to vote for, it favours the 2 major parties.


In practice most seats are determined by first preferences, I have personally never lived in a marginal where second or 3rd preferences could determine who wins and they are the minority. From observation given the pork barrelling methods parties apply its seems there are political benefits of living in a marginal.

I don't see it as a major distortion of democracy the alternate first past the post could lead to a minority MP.
I think the flaws either way are minor.
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #39 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 9:56am
 
Democracy is normally expressed as a percentage play to garner votes.... not usually much more than that......

In the movie 'W', it was hilarious to see how George Dubb-ye, after losing an election for Texas governor, said that next time he'd out-Texas his rival(s) and win... he did.  That's like the Queenslandophiles and their endless whine about getting the short end of the stick, or the Perthophiles whining about how much they contribute to the economy but get so little back etc....

Amazing but true - get onto the old Jingo Wagon and you're a red carpet ride into Parliament......
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #40 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 10:17am
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 5:48am:
Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:40pm:
Australia (or other western-style democracies) are flawed in regards to the preferential voting system but compared to living in North Korea...


No preferential voting is also flawed as the minority could determine who governs

That's what I mean, RSF.
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freediver
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #41 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 12:37pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:48pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
Quote:
But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to


Optional preferential voting, as it was practices here, was still compulsory. It was an absurdly irrational combination, born of lack of understanding of how our voting system works. If there were seven candidates, none of which you liked, you were still compelled to vote for one, but in the next election when there were only 6 of them, voting was either compulsory or optional, depending on who your first preference was. The result being that compulsory votes were up against optional votes.
Nope and YOU'VE never understood Optional preferential voting anyway.
1.  You don't have to vote if you don't like anyone.  Just put the ballot paper unmarked in the box or pocket it.
2.  In optional preferential voting you only need to number the boxes of candidates you would like to vote for in the order you prefer them... 
Hence your vote will never go to a person or party you do not wish it to.


Quote:
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.


It is completely irrelevant to whether we have democracy. 
Nope...  factionalism distorts democracy... voting is no longer an individual choice.



So your vision of "true democracy" involves people being compelled to turn up but not lodge a valid ballot paper?

Under CPV, your vote only ever ends up with your preferred candidate out of those who are in the running. Whether you 'like' or 'dislike' them is irrelevant. You can only ever choose from those who are in the running. You could like all of them. You could like none of them. It is irrelevant to your ability to choose which one you most prefer, which is in reality what you are doing when you rank candidates, if you understand how it works.

True democracy means the will of the majority. The majority is a faction. Democracy is by definition factional.

The internal workings of an institution such as a political party are irrelevant to whether we have a true democracy. At the end of the day, all they can do is endorse a candidate. That candidate still has to run against all the other candidates, who can be nominated as non-factionally as they like, so long as they have a faction of sufficient size endorsing their nomination.

How exactly does it cease being your individual choice who you vote for if you don't like how a party is run? It is still your choice whether to vote for their candidate.
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Grendel
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #42 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 3:09pm
 
Nope....
How about you stop making up crap about what I think....  YOU are no mindreader you have enough trouble with just ordinary reading.
How about you address what I actually say...?

BTW I know how it works and have for years YOU on the other hand failed years ago in understanding what OPV was and is.  Seems to me YOU are still having problems all round.

If you don't understand how factions control parties and distort the vote, then I cant help you there either.
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RightSaidFred
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #43 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 7:36pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 3:09pm:
Nope....
How about you stop making up crap about what I think....  YOU are no mindreader you have enough trouble with just ordinary reading.
How about you address what I actually say...?

BTW I know how it works and have for years YOU on the other hand failed years ago in understanding what OPV was and is.  Seems to me YOU are still having problems all round.

If you don't understand how factions control parties and distort the vote, then I cant help you there either.


OK yes factions can make a party very non-democratic as is the ALP totally and the LNP to some extent. Branch staking is the enemy of true party democracy but you don't have to vote for a particular party and how they select there MP candidates does not concern, I am more concerned to see if they are a complete moron or not.

They can throw up anyone in your electorate you don't have to vote for them !
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Grendel
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Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #44 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:33pm
 
But then rusted-ons vote for parties no matter who they put up, not individuals and not based on how intelligent or competent they may be.
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