Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print
Democracy expressed as a percentage (Read 1539 times)
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 26177
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #15 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:54am
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:39am:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?


The whole thread is pointless democracy is a binary thing you either select who governs via public consensus using various different types of government/voting processes or you don't.

Its very trivial complaining about going for a 5-10 minute walk and getting your named ticked off if that annoys you you might be happier with a totalitarian dictatorship where you don't have to even think about anything where speaking out can see you removed from the gene pool !

Not sure if that's a general comment or aimed at me RSF.

But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to.

But democracy is a system whereby decisions are made by the result of a popular vote.  Not just a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

If the latter, then you'd have to say our representatives these days are thoroughly unrepresentative and therefore undemocratic because they vote for their party or themselves not the people they represent.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
capitosinora
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1203
USA New York
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #16 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 8:40am
 
100%

...

Australian "democratically elected" head of state salutes to democracy.


Back to top
 

SORRY FOR POLITICAL INCORRECTNESS
 
IP Logged
 
RightSaidFred
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1094
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #17 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:34am
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:54am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:39am:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?


The whole thread is pointless democracy is a binary thing you either select who governs via public consensus using various different types of government/voting processes or you don't.

Its very trivial complaining about going for a 5-10 minute walk and getting your named ticked off if that annoys you you might be happier with a totalitarian dictatorship where you don't have to even think about anything where speaking out can see you removed from the gene pool !

Not sure if that's a general comment or aimed at me RSF.

But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to.

But democracy is a system whereby decisions are made by the result of a popular vote.  Not just a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

If the latter, then you'd have to say our representatives these days are thoroughly unrepresentative and therefore undemocratic because they vote for their party or themselves not the people they represent.





Mostly a general comment, the whole concept of mandatory attendance at a polling both is such a nuff nuff issue.
Does not matter in the context the public gets to choose who governs.

Actually most democracies the decisions are made by an elected government on that you are about 99.9% incorrect. Occasionally governments will either publicly or secretly poll the electorate which may influence a government decision or at least gauge how much a decision will impact their popularity so at best for some decisions the public might indirectly influence a decision, the vast majority of decisions is more about trusting who we elected.

If they get it wrong enough the polls will show it and certainly the electorate will act st the next election.

Look at border security the biggest misread by a government I can recall, the ALP did not see that tidal wave coming the ALP were looking like losing 20 seats in Sydney's west alone traditional ALP heart land.

I prefer we trust the elected government as hard decisions like the GST can be unpopular.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 26177
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #18 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:47am
 
Oh I'm sure the ALP understood where they stood with the public.
But the ALP think the majority are always wrong unless they agree with them and therefore need re-education.
They think Leadership  has nothing to do with listening to the people its all about leading them about by the nose.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 26177
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #19 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:59am
 
Liberal factions baulk at democracy

Peta Credlin
The Australian
12:00AM February 7, 2018

The problem for all established political parties around the Western world is the growing disconnect between insiders and outsiders. A party that merely pays lip service to its own members is hardly likely to take voters’ concerns seriously. Seeking a third term and defending a one-seat majority, the only way for the Liberals to win is to enthuse people, starting with their own members, because the Coalition is up against Labor, the Greens, the deep pockets of the union movement and activists such as GetUp!

Last July, Malcolm Turnbull told the NSW Liberal Party’s reform convention that he supported full democratisation: “We must ensure,” the Prime Minister said, “that every member of our party has a say in preselections in every measure, every step of our party’s processes.” The members duly took heed, passing by more than 700 votes to 400 a resolution demanding one member, one vote ballots for all party positions: for lower house candidates, for upper house candidates and for members of the state executive.

But now the factional fightback is on. You would think with such a resounding vote from the rank and file, this Saturday’s NSW Liberal state council would just endorse the people’s vote; after all, wasn’t that what we were told needed to happen, and did, following the same-sex marriage plebiscite? Not so, it seems, when it comes to wresting power away from factional players and back into the hands of the ordinary party member. This weekend there will also be a rival position, the so-called “Bennelong motion”, put to the state council that protects the factions by bringing in only a little bit of democracy, and then only in five years. The waters are being further muddied by a so-called “unity ticket” for positions on the state executive which includes opponents of reform such as former immigration minister Philip Ruddock as well as supporters such as former NSW attorney-general Greg Smith.

For years the NSW Liberal Party has been controlled by a left-leaning faction associated with former NSW minister Michael Photios, who’s now a well-connected lobbyist. And for years, in response, Liberal Party members have been trying to reclaim their party by arguing for candidate selection by the ordinary rank and file rather than preselections by small groups of easily manipulated insiders. For instance, in 1994, Tony Abbott was preselected by almost 200 mostly local delegates from a field of 14 contenders including two future MPs, a future Supreme Court judge, and a future chairman of Macquarie Bank. Back then the Liberals were so unlike an insiders’ club that a former party president and a former party vice-president were among the defeated candidates. By the time Joe Hockey retired two decades on, it had become a virtual closed shop. Just 100 delegates, only 50 of them locals, picked a former party president (and Hockey’s long-term staffer) over just two other candidates. Talented outsiders knew not to run because of the factional fix.

It was the same in the Senate, where a small group of party insiders picked another insider ahead of retired army general Jim Molan AO, DSC ,who’s only now fluked his way into parliament because others were knocked out on constitutional grounds.

In 2012, a legal challenge had to be mounted to try to force the NSW state council to even consider democratising the party, but that bid failed. Then, in late 2013, both then-PM Abbott and then-premier Barry O’Farrell personally fronted the state executive to demand reform. You know things are crook when the factions even tried rolling a sitting PM and premier but fortunately, with the president’s casting vote, the two leaders prevailed and the reform process was underway with the establishment of a committee chaired by former PM John Howard. The Howard committee recommended rank-and-file preselections for lower house seats only, but even this modest reform was subject to stalling tactics.

In late 2016, with state and federal elections out of the way, a new reform push by members forced the Liberal establishment to convene a “futures convention” where every member across NSW would be able to attend, speak and vote on the best way forward. Last July, despite being charged $150 each, more than 1200 members turned up at Rosehill Racecourse and voted by almost two to one for the principle of one member, one vote. But the factional insiders are refusing to respect its outcome.

Ideally, the state council this weekend would consider only the Rosehill resolution, but those opposed to reform have finally put up the old Howard recommendations they ignored three years ago, only they’ve proposed delaying rank-and-file preselections — which are just for the lower houses anyway — until 2022 for federal and until 2023 for state parliament. These changes have long been overtaken by the Rosehill proposal for open upper and lower house preselections.

Without reform to the upper house where the factional operatives are mostly parked, and leaving the factions running state executive, there’s no real change. In other words, it hardly disturbs the factional stranglehold, the sinecures and the influence peddling: it’s the reform you concede when you are determined to stop real reform.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 26177
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #20 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:59am
 
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
RightSaidFred
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1094
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #21 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 11:33am
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:47am:
Oh I'm sure the ALP understood where they stood with the public.
But the ALP think the majority are always wrong unless they agree with them and therefore need re-education.
They think Leadership  has nothing to do with listening to the people its all about leading them about by the nose.


Not sure on that they seem pretty clueless about Sydney's west, its an area that can easily kick out a government and it pretty much did in 2013.
If you look at their policy shift on border security it kind of suggest they did not understand most Australians support strong border security (even most ALP voters) policies as they shifted back go the MeToo approach on border security which most voters did not believe !

I think the issue with the current ALP they are lead by an idiot from Melbourne out of the union movement that is so unrepresentative at least Rudd was from a LNP dominated area. I think Rudd might of understood what is going on but the ALP looked very clueless on many things !
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
RightSaidFred
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1094
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #22 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 11:38am
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:59am:
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.


More or less agree, my view on politics it seems to attract a very shallow pool of talent that I prefer to analyse them in terms of how much damage they might do.
I thought Fraser was an idiot and Hawke did well to lead the ALP. Senator Button had some great ideas but these days the ALP are as visionary as a mole rooting around for grubs ! What is keeping them in the race is the LNP is not much better !
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 26177
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #23 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 1:03pm
 
Totally agree...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
AnotherJourneyByTrain
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6845
waggawagga
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #24 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:24pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?




Where is the choice in Prime Minister?

Democracy is just an idea that exists in your head: systems exist in the real world and all disintegrate according with the arrow of time...
Back to top
 

......Australia has an illegitimate Government!
 
IP Logged
 
AnotherJourneyByTrain
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6845
waggawagga
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #25 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:27pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:45am:
Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:55pm:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?




You can avoid turning up on voting day by paying a fairly small fine. You don't cop a visit from the secret police.


Being an ex-rugby player ( I am not a small person) I quite enjoy walking over the top of the ALP and Greenie fan people rudely trying to give me a useless piece of paper they say we should be using less of.

The other piece of comedy I saw one year walking back after voting I saw this old Magna driving past with the standard blue smoke blowing out the back, there we two teenage girls in the back yelling out vote greens ....... and I am the one walking to the polling booth ? I guess they are not as bad as Al Goore with his 7 mansions that all have wood burning fireplaces zipping around the world on a private jet ...... but they hypocrisy is all there to see.

Do you even know what the word 'hypocrisy' means?

** Hey, i know.... lets all vote for copper internet and pretend we've got superior business acumen  Cheesy
Back to top
 

......Australia has an illegitimate Government!
 
IP Logged
 
AnotherJourneyByTrain
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6845
waggawagga
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #26 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:29pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:54am:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:39am:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?


The whole thread is pointless democracy is a binary thing you either select who governs via public consensus using various different types of government/voting processes or you don't.

Its very trivial complaining about going for a 5-10 minute walk and getting your named ticked off if that annoys you you might be happier with a totalitarian dictatorship where you don't have to even think about anything where speaking out can see you removed from the gene pool !

Not sure if that's a general comment or aimed at me RSF.

But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to.

But democracy is a system whereby decisions are made by the result of a popular vote.  Not just a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

If the latter, then you'd have to say our representatives these days are thoroughly unrepresentative and therefore undemocratic because they vote for their party or themselves not the people they represent.




There is no true democracy: you're just tripping balls buddy like all you lib voters!
Back to top
 

......Australia has an illegitimate Government!
 
IP Logged
 
RightSaidFred
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1094
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #27 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:41pm
 
AnotherJourneyByTrain wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:24pm:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?




Where is the choice in Prime Minister?

Democracy is just an idea that exists in your head: systems exist in the real world and all disintegrate according with the arrow of time...


Every democracy is different in many ways our system the only ones who vote on the party's intended PM are the ones in their electorates.
Given how a leader can effect polling maybe we need to directly elect the PM ..... maybe we need every party to throw up a few options.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
RightSaidFred
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1094
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #28 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:45pm
 
AnotherJourneyByTrain wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 5:27pm:
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:45am:
Mr Hammer wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:55pm:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?




You can avoid turning up on voting day by paying a fairly small fine. You don't cop a visit from the secret police.


Being an ex-rugby player ( I am not a small person) I quite enjoy walking over the top of the ALP and Greenie fan people rudely trying to give me a useless piece of paper they say we should be using less of.

The other piece of comedy I saw one year walking back after voting I saw this old Magna driving past with the standard blue smoke blowing out the back, there we two teenage girls in the back yelling out vote greens ....... and I am the one walking to the polling booth ? I guess they are not as bad as Al Goore with his 7 mansions that all have wood burning fireplaces zipping around the world on a private jet ...... but they hypocrisy is all there to see.

Do you even know what the word 'hypocrisy' means?

** Hey, i know.... lets all vote for copper internet and pretend we've got superior business acumen  Cheesy


Sure hypocrisy would be you claiming you add value to forum so please continue !
I guess you must drive a clapped out magna polluting the environment and vote greens ? Did I hit a raw nerve ?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 40717
I like fish
Re: Democracy expressed as a percentage
Reply #29 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 9:28pm
 
RightSaidFred wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 7:39am:
Grendel wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
How do you measure democracy?
I was thinking about 30% before I read Graps post...then I thought to myself that it would even be less than that.

I don't think you should fall into the trap of equating various freedoms with democracy.  That would be wrong.

I don't think you can equate mandatory attendance on election days as democratic.  Where is the choice in that?

So how do you measure Democracy?  Can it be measured?


The whole thread is pointless democracy is a binary thing you either select who governs via public consensus using various different types of government/voting processes or you don't.

Its very trivial complaining about going for a 5-10 minute walk and getting your named ticked off if that annoys you you might be happier with a totalitarian dictatorship where you don't have to even think about anything where speaking out can see you removed from the gene pool !


It is a spectrum, albeit a naturally polarising one.

Quote:
But happy to vote, not sure that mandatory attendance or voting is democratic, when true democracy would give you the right not to vote.  When true democracy would be Optional preferential voting where your vote does not go to someone you don't want it to go to


Optional preferential voting, as it was practices here, was still compulsory. It was an absurdly irrational combination, born of lack of understanding of how our voting system works. If there were seven candidates, none of which you liked, you were still compelled to vote for one, but in the next election when there were only 6 of them, voting was either compulsory or optional, depending on who your first preference was. The result being that compulsory votes were up against optional votes.

Quote:
Now factionalism is rife in both major parties particularly Labor...  that is hardly democratic.


It is completely irrelevant to whether we have democracy.
Back to top
 

It's God's job to forgive terrorists; it's our job to arrange the meeting.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print