Gandalf, you must choose, either:

1) you're a Quranist. You believe solely in the Quran, and reject the Hadith in its entirety; or,

2) you believe in both the Quran and the Hadith.

If you are a Quranist, then you cannot cite Hadith verses to support your claims, nor can you cite any other sources.

If you support the Quran and the Hadith, then you cannot subscribe to a peaceful interpretation of Islam, because of the Sunnah completely doesn't support that.

Anything in between 1) and 2) and then you are adopting a 'anything-goes' approach, which you chided me for, and would make you a hypocrite.
--------
But, because I'm fair, if you publicly choose 1) or 2), then other members must likewise be confined to similar arguments. For example, if you choose 1) then we cannot also cite sources outside of the Quran to refute your claims. If you choose 2) then we can cite sources outside of the Quran to support our claims.

My suggestion is that you declare yourself a Quranist, which would then reduce the debate and argument to the Quran solely, which means that neither you nor Freediver can use external sources to support your claims.

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 7:24pm:


Ok, but if Gandalf publicly claimed that he was a Quranist, would you be willing to argue with him on equal terms and not use external sources such as the Hadith and the histories to support your arguments???

You have to be fair.

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:


But, to be fair you do acknowledge that he is 'limited' in how much he can interpret the Quran?? After all, it is the literal Word of God, and one cannot dispute God, can they?

Dnarever wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:


No one.

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 7:29pm:


No you didn't. You accused me of insisting something means the opposite of what you think it says. Thats called disagreeing with what you think, not lying.

If you are still confused about what lying is, I'll once again use the example from your wiki (which I assume is still there) - where you claim that "muslims" (plural) said a number of statements when you actually only know of one who said it. Thats what a lie is FD - deliberately changing one fact (you heard me, and only me, say something) into something completely different (claiming that multiple people said it).

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 9:36am:


So, you realise that the aha ditch are considered to be authoritative in the Sunni tradition. Therefore, you are picking and choosing verses in what is considered to be authoritative. You see the ‘anything goes’ approach here, don’t you?

That’s what I’ve argued in this thread: either you are a Quranist (sola quranica) or you accept the ahadith in its entirety. Anything in between is ‘anything goes’.

Second, how do you explain the glaring contradictions in the Quran, along with the change in style of speech? Surely, someone as omnipotent as God would be consistent in His speech???

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 9:36am:


You choose to interpret the opposite of what the Quran actually says. This nonsense about the whole of the Quran is just an excuse to tell a series of lies about what different parts of the Quran says.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 9:45am:


Thanks Gandalf. I knew I was far more polite than you were implying.

Quote:


Are you suggesting you are the only Muslim, out of 1.5 billion, telling those particular lies? That is a rather absurd position to take isn't it Gandalf? As I recall, you refused to state whether you had personally come across any other Muslim telling those lies.

How can you be an Islamic reformer if not one single other Muslim takes you seriously?

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 12:11pm:


Correction: you choose to interpret the opposite of what I interpret the Quran actually says.

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 12:11pm:


Yes FD, you used that mind-numbingly stupid defense of your lie the first time. Clearly it was too much to hope that you would have wised up.

A lie is a lie based on the facts you knew at the time you made the lie. Its an intention thing. If you didn't know that no one besides me made the claim (which you didn't), then pretending the claim is a claim made by a plurality of people, and stating that as fact, is obviously a lie. Learning after the fact that lo and behold other people made the same claim too - doesn't make the lie not a lie. Just accept the fact that you lied because you dishonestly attributed a quote you heard from me to "muslims" (plural). Even if you had said something like "one muslim claims blah blah blah, but I bet he isn't the only one" - then that would be completely different.

Auggie wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 3:26pm:


There's a heap of faulty logic here, but lets just focus on one glaring flaw in this paragraph: The command you are referring to in the Quran is actually a command to obey "the messenger", not "obey Muhammad" or "obey the prophet". Ordinarily you would say this is mere semantics, but it becomes significant when you read elsewhere in the Quran emphasis on Muhammad's role strictly as a deliverer of the message - not an enforcer. It literally spells this out unambiguously. Moreover, it also emphasises Muhammad is merely human, not to be elevated to anything beyond a mere human.

What does this mean? God wants us to "obey" the message of God - obviously. And this message is conveyed through "the messenger". And you can't be a messenger without a message. The command therefore is specific to the message of God (ie the Quran), not Muhammad the person.

Auggie wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 4:55pm:


I am familiar with the chronological order of surahs, and it is not as simple as you portray it - even though that is a popular misconception. Chapter 2 for example is full of spiritual contemplation. Besides, some of the socio-political doctrine is the opposite of what the critics claim it is - like no compulsion in religion, and Allah guides those who believe to the path of peace - both Medinan verses.

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 7:22pm:


LOL FD lying to cover up his lies.

You even asked me whether or not anyone else had said it. Now you are saying you knew all along that others had said it?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 9:36am:



Good for you Gandalf.


Gandalf,

How do you choose to interpret these two Koran verses ?

------ >


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

QUESTION;
Does the inflection of the meaning of the words contained in Koran 9.29, really call on moslems to fight those       who believe not       in Allah ?

Or do the words of Koran 9.29 really have another meaning, altogether ?




"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

QUESTION;
Does the meaning of the contents of Koran 60:4, support [i.e. confirm] the meaning of the contents of Koran 9.29 ?

Raven wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 11:47pm:


Unfortunately...

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 8:19pm:


A lie hinges on your knowledge of the facts at the time FD, and what claims you make about that knowledge. If you claim you know something that you don't - then thats a lie.

You clearly didn't know anyone else but me had made those statements, yet you stated as fact that other people had said it.

By your logic, if I stated that I knew for a fact there are green monkeys on the dark side of them moon - only to discover after the fact that lo and behold there are green monkeys there - I wasn't lying. Even though I dishonestly claimed I knew something that I didn't.

Thats exactly what you did FD - dishonestly claimed you knew something that you didn't. Ergo, a lie.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 10:28am:


That's what I tried telling, FD. When I told him that the Jews were a threat, and that everyone was out to get each other, etc. he accused me of being a liar. I told him that I genuinely believed these things to be true and therefore I wasn't lying. But he was insistent that a misrepresentation of historical facts was a lie, to which I replied that if it wasn't intentional or deliberate then it wasn't a lie.

According to FD, anyone who disagrees with him is a liar.

freediver wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 12:23pm:


Yes, it was so obvious you kept asking me if it was correct.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 1:39pm:


I asked you whether you were prepared to disagree with what you insist is a lie. You were not.

Gandalf was just upset that he got busted playing the stereotypical slippery Muslim, and it was reflecting badly on Islam and Muslims.

So in an impressive feat an irony, he tried to correct the situation by getting me to edit the wiki by accusing me of lying. He did this, despite being unwilling to disagree with the statement and unwilling to answer simple questions, such as whether he knew through his own experience that the statement was correct.

Even after all this became clear, he kept digging himself in deeper by attempting to redefine lie, so that it had nothing to do with whether a statement was true and depended instead on his very limited understanding of my knowledge at a particular point in time.

Somehow, I am not surprised. I have come to expect this from Muslims.

All religions are susceptible to being abused by political leaders for their own personal gain. In the case of Islam, it was the founder of the religion who was the biggest abuser.

Gandalf is free to choose for himself, unlike most Muslims in the world.

Frank wrote on Feb 9^th, 2018 at 5:56pm:


Just like other religions, their parents and the culture they are brought up in that is greatly influenced by a religion. You think kids just go "Oh, Yeah! Jesus/Allah/YHWY are the truth!"? It's child abuse as far as I'm concerned whether it's Muslims, Christians or whoever doing it. It's brainwashing alright.

Just like this crap. The army of God?

“Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.”
― Aristotle, The Philosophy of Aristotle

freediver wrote on Feb 9^th, 2018 at 12:33pm:


I say, are you granting G the freedom to be a Muslim?

You do know that Moslem == a follower of Islam, don't you?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 3:31pm:


Gandalf, do you often accuse people of lying at the same time as refusing to disagree with them, or answer simple questions about whether you know the statement is true?

Do you often accuse people of lying and then start insisting that whether they are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether they are lying?

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 8:06pm:


And once again, your problem here is in thinking that dishonesty and lying can somehow become not dishonest and not lies - if you obtain some relevant information after the fact. By your logic, I could invent something I could not possible know to be true - like saying there are monkeys on the dark side of the moon and pretend its fact. And apparently it would magically not become a lie if that claim was miraculously proven to be true at some point after the fact. That is the logic you are flogging here. Yet not only this, you also take the absurd position that its also not a lie if you can demonstrate that the person who might know whether its true or not refuses to provide evidence that would prove your statement factual! So if we use my moon monkey analogy again, thats like me saying "there are monkeys on the dark side of them moon" and then demanding that the person who has seen the dark side of the moon and knows whats on there to provide evidence to validate my claim - and when he refuses declaring "therefore it can't be a lie!". Thats literally how ridiculous you are being here FD.


Once again you singularly refuse to understand (or acknowledge) that lying and dishonesty comes from intent. You clearly intended to deceive as you attributed a statement you heard from one muslim, and one muslim alone, to a plurality of muslims - and stated it as fact.  You kinda got close to making a coherent argument for you not lying by claiming you did know for a fact all those things were said by more than one muslim - yet you just dig yourself deeper and prove yourself even more dishonest by continuing to refuse to cite any other sources for this claim besides me. Of course we all know what your game is - by attributing "muslims" to an incriminating statement you heard only from one person, it presents muslims as a collective, who have a hive mind - a "mindless collective" if you will.

Quote:


You accused me of this, but you are lying. Again. I did ask you several questions, but you evaded every single time. I still do not even know whether you are accusing me of lying over a statement you personally believe to be true. That is the extent of your evasiveness.

Quote:


The difference is that I am stating the bleeding obvious, and it is possible to know whether it is true. Is this some special Islamic version of logic you are yet to explain to us?

Quote:


Are you now trying to insist it is impossible to know what Muslims say? Why don't you jsut admit you were clutching at straws to accuse me of lying.

Quote:


This is merely evidence of your continued stereotypical Muslim evasiveness. Whether you admit that what I say is true is not relevant to whether it is true. It is relevant to your tapdancing.

Quote:


That's terribly unlucky for you Gandalf, as it means you have made a statement that you can not possibly know to be true.

Gandalf, do you often accuse people of lying at the same time as refusing to disagree with them, or answer simple questions about whether you know the statement is true?

Do you often accuse people of lying and then start insisting that whether they are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether they are lying?

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 12:32pm:


Hmmm and when did you ask me FD - before or after you made your BS statement in the wiki? And once again you really do seem to be applying this hilarious logic that a baseless claim that a slippery muslim won't confirm or deny and is all slippery about it - can therefore somehow be stated as fact and not be a lie. Are you saying I can invent some crap that you might know is true or not - and it can't be a lie so long as you are slippery and evasive about it when I ask you if its true

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 12:32pm:


Indeed FD - its so bleeding obvious, and so possible to know whether is true - yet you somehow couldn't do it in the wiki article that would have made it something other than a baseless, blanket slur - and whats more continue to refuse to cite anything. FD you must surely agree that when you make multiple claims about what "muslims" (plural) say, but in every instance cite as evidence the same one person saying it - it is at the very least baseless and sloppy - no?

Just out of interest, have you really heard other muslims besides me, in your words "make the absurd argument that the Quran does not use the term self-defence because it was written in Arabic, not English. That is, they will literally use the fact that self-defence is written in English to justify its absence from the Quran"? Can you at least give me a clue where else you heard that - since its "bleeding obvious" and so "possible to know", that shouldn't be a problem for you no?

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 12:32pm:


Not at all FD. I can cite you the exact statements you made and the exact non-existent references you made to "support" those statements. If you still need it explained to you how stating one thing as fact and citing something completely different as "evidence" is lying - I suggest you consult a dictionary. I can also cite pages of tapdancing where you singularly refused to provide any other reference to any other muslim besides me saying what you stated as fact a plurality of muslims have said - despite your assurances it is "bleeding obvious" and "possible to know".

Quote:


It does not matter. Your evasiveness is still evidence of your evasiveness, no matter when it happened.

Quote:


I have repeatedly told you that I am not doing so Gandalf. This is all in your imagination.

Quote:


The wiki is full of links to examples. That's what the little numbers are.

Quote:


But you just finished explaining that whether I lied has nothing to do with whether I was telling the truth, but boiled down to my intentions.

Quote:


No, I just want to know whether you make a habit of accusing people of lying at the same time as refusing to disagree with them, or answer simple questions about whether you know the statement is true. Also, do you often accuse people of lying and then start insisting that whether they are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether they are lying?

Quote:


So you stating for a fact something about my intent that you cannot possibly know must be a lie right? Or does this Muslim logic only get applied to non-Muslims?

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 6:56pm:


You are lying FD. Fancy that?

Lets just take one exampe from the wiki:

Quote:


- contains how many references FD? One - me. Actually I asked you about this particular one in my last post - shock horror you dodged it. Is your evasion a concession that indeed I am the only person you heard making this claim - and that you lied by stating as fact that a plurality of muslims made the claim? Of if, as you suggested before, its 'bleeding obvious' - could you at least tell me who else you heard making this very specific claim as quoted above? No? Perhaps where else you heard it?

This of course is not the only one - as I have quoted before. Footnotes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15 - all contain a claim about what "muslims" (plural) say, but which reference a single source - me.

Why would you lie about this FD? Its not like I haven't mentioned these before.

Quote:


That does not make it untrue or a lie Gandalf.

Quote:


I did it because I like to give real examples to back up my claims.

Quote:


No. You blame races for diseases. That's pretty much the definition of racism.

Gandalf, do you often accuse people of lying at the same time as refusing to disagree with them, or answer simple questions about whether you know the statement is true?

Do you often accuse people of lying and then start insisting that whether they are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether they are lying?

Or is this the only time? I need to know so I can be accurate with my plurals and singulars. I'd hate to have you hassle me for months over an extra s.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2018 at 12:13pm:


You're right, FD, so unfair. Claiming G said those Jews were a mindless collective can't possibly be a lie.

After all, he's a wacist. He must think it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2018 at 2:53pm:


No Gandalf, it's racist.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2018 at 8:15pm:


A straight answer, eh?

Oh, FD. That's a question.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2018 at 9:00am:


No, it's funny that FD accuses you of not giving a straight answer.

Gandalf do you honestly expect me to find yet more examples to back up a claim that you do not disagree with?

Is there something about this specific claim that makes you focus on it? Do you have a particular reason for thinking no other Muslims have ever uttered it? I concede that it is a particularly stupid thing to say, but Muslims set the bar pretty low, and show no hesitation in parroting the most bizarre claims in an effort to justify the many atrocities committed by Muhammad.

Also, why are you always so reluctant to reveal your sources? Is it because you don't want it to be too easy for me to find more examples of Muslims saying the same thing as you?

Do you often accuse people of lying at the same time as refusing to disagree with them, or answer simple questions about whether you know the statement is true?

Do you often accuse people of lying and then start insisting that whether they are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether they are lying? Is this a case of one Muslim being creative in their absurdity, or just doing what Muslims do?

Well, let's try for a straight answer.

FD, do you uphold the use of porkies in the Wiki?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Why are you asking G, FD? Do you use porkies or not?

Why is it so hard for you to say?

When you say you made them all up, are you saying they are all lies? Or that whether you are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether you are lying? Are you in fact accusing me of lying about whether your lies are individual or collective, by misusing an s?

Quote:


No idea. I have vague recollections of them banging on about the fact the Quran is in Arabic and unless you speak Arabic you cannot possibly say anything negative about the book. Does it matter?

Quote:


So would I. I could add it to the wiki. Thanks for the advice Gandalf.

Quote:


Your point was that whether I am telling the truth is irrelevant to whether I am lying. Now, why would you bother making the argument that truth is not a defence against accusations of lying? Have you ever made this argument before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? If I accused Muslims of this dirty little trick, would I be incorrect?

Yes, G, but you missed FD's point about Muslims lying about the truth of lies that are true.

Would you care to comment?

You seem to be making a big fuss about FD's use of the letter s. Should he not have the freedom to use all letters of the alphabet? And what if FD had a speech impediment? Would you be victimising him then?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 11:35am:


Yes, but as FD says, you Muslims have taqiyya, so the occasional use of porkies is necessary.

Have you thought of asking FD if he upholds the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 11:52am:


Yes, G, but you left out the s: why shouldn't we lynch those Muslims who may or may not have done anything wrong??

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 8:08pm:


This is how you responded when I put it to you that you clearly didn't know anyone but me had made any of the statements in your wiki that you attributed to more than one muslim:

freediver wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 12:23pm:


and...

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2018 at 12:32pm:


Interesting, its so bleeding obvious, and so possible to know - yet you continue to duck and weave whenever I ask you to nominate anyone else.

Would you like to have another go?

Who else besides me has made "the absurd argument that the Quran does not use the term self-defence because it was written in Arabic, not English. That is, they will literally use the fact that self-defence is written in English to justify its absence from the Quran (you do not misunderstand, it really is that stupid)."??



Quote:


No FD, you were not right. No one besides me has ever made the arabic/english argument I quoted above. I have no reason to suspect otherwise, and you certainly have presented no evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm not even sure I made it.

Quote:


A lie is a lie based on the intention of the liar. Have I mentioned that before? Please do feel free to babble more inane nonsense if you are still having difficulty with this most simple concept.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 10:19am:


Can you quote where I stated as fact that I can easily show it?


Quote:


You didn't answer the question Gandalf. Why did you bother making the argument that truth is not a defence against accusations of lying? Would it be reasonable to conclude from the efforts you went to with that argument that you were conceding I was right?

And yes you have mentioned it. You said it was a lie to state something that you cannot know to be true, then went on to make statements about my intentions that were the opposite of what I said and that you cannot possibly know to be true. I pointed out this hypocrisy to you previously. I don't think you ever responded, other than repeating yourself.

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? If I accused Muslims of this dirty little trick, would I be incorrect?

When you say you made them all up, are you saying they are all lies? Or that whether you are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether you are lying? Are you in fact accusing me of lying about the popularity of your lies among your fellow Muslims, by misusing an s? Or is it just one of your lies?

How do you know that no other Muslim has ever made the same claim? There are 1.4 billion of them after all, and the whole Arabic thing is a common theme. What is it about this particular claim that makes you so sure you are the only one to ever make it? Is it because you know it is not just a lie, but a particularly absurd lie?

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 12:25pm:


Do you often defend yourself against accusations of lying with this "how do you know its not true" defense? You are seriously telling me you can't see the logical flaw in it? Do you at least acknowledge the problem with attributing a claim to multiple muslims, but referencing only one muslim saying it? Would you agree that it would have been more honest to say something like "at least one muslim makes the argument...." or something similar, rather than simply stating as fact with no evidence that multiple muslims said it?

Do you use this same defense against that other famous lie of yours - stating as fact with zero evidence that  government school funds misappropriated by AFIC went to terrorists? ie - "its not a lie - because you don't know its not true!" Wait come to think of it, I think you actually did use that defense - am I right?

Quote:


How do you know what my intentions were? How is this not a lie by your own standard?

And given that, truth is a perfectly reasonable defence against accusations of lying. If someone is telling the truth, you assume they are telling the truth. The extraordinary claim that they intended to lie and just happened to tell the truth requires extraordinary evidence. But you would put it the opposite way - that someone telling the turth should be assumed to be lying until they can prove their intentions weren't the opposite of the outcome.

Quote:


I provided evidence to back up my claim. You have provided no evidence to back up your claim. You are the one making a big deal about it. Yet you cannot even answer simple questions about it.

Quote:


No. I think one example is a lot better than none. I've never seen it argued that two examples must be provided to justify the use of the plural. It seems particularly anal to me, unless you have a specific reason to believe this is a one-off. Which in this case you appear to be claiming, but it is remarkably difficult to get a straight answer on that one.

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? If I accused Muslims of this dirty little trick, would I be incorrect?

When you say you made them all up, are you saying they are all lies? Or that whether you are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether you are lying? Are you in fact accusing me of lying about the popularity of your lies among your fellow Muslims, by misusing an s? Or is it just one of your lies?

How do you know that no other Muslim has ever made the same claim? There are 1.4 billion of them after all, and the whole Arabic thing is a common theme. What is it about this particular claim that makes you so sure you are the only one to ever make it? Is it because you know it is not just a lie, but a particularly absurd lie?

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:


Given that you stated as fact that they have, the question should be how do you know that they have?

Quick FD thats your cue - duck for cover!

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:


Lets be clear here FD - I don't believe your statements are statements of truth. Certainly not for that most obscure arabic/english claim (which not even I made by the way, but anyway). It is you who is mounting this unbelievably absurd argument that says 'I'm not lying because - how do you know it isn't true?' - and then off you go on your usual inane FD babble of demanding that I disprove a negative. Just like your even more absurd defense of your "AFIC school funds go to terrorsts" slur - which consisted entirely of demanding that I prove it wasn't so.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:


Sorry I must have missed that FD. If you could kindly show me where you referenced multiple muslims saying what you claimed they said. Cause I can tell you its not in the wiki.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:


- sig worthy.

So do you often go around referring to me as gandalf the "muslims" (plural)?

Or do you genuinely think its ok to take a single quote from a single muslim - and use it to make a general slur against muslims as a collective? Is that why you quit the "criticising Europeans = racist" discussion - because the rank hypocricy became too embarassing for you?

You know what, lets just cut to the chase here FD: lets cut it down to a simple question: do you know for a fact that more than one muslim said those things you attributed to multiple muslims? Yes or no. And if so, how do you know? Where did you see those statements? Can you reference them?

Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 8:25pm:


Good point. Debate concluded. Well done.

FD, do you uphold the use of truth in your campaign against the Muselman?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 1:31pm:


That does not answer the question Gandalf. Here it is again for you.

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say?

Quote:


Why is it that Muslims are so consistent in inventing these lies?

If you used your own reasoning, where did you get your 'own facts' from to back them up?

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 7:08pm:


Yes it does. You are just being obtuse. Try for once to actually read, and preferably comprehend what I said. If anything is unclear, feel free to ask. You might also consider the worth of posting such a stupid question in the first place.

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 7:08pm:


From the Quran.

Any other idiotic questions to sustain your continued dodging and weaving from the actual point - ie the question of who else actually said those things in your wiki besides me, and why you won't say even though you insisted it was 'bleeding obvious' and easy to find out?

A lie is a lie based on what you believe at the time, not based on what you may or may not discover after the fact. Are you keeping up FD? Let me know if you're still struggling with this basic concept, perhaps I can say it even slower, or draw you a ven diagram. Its fair to say I've been "making that argument" for as long as I've known what a lie is. Which is a long time.

You didn't know that anyone besides me made any of those statements, therefore stating that they did was a lie. The proof that you didn't know and still don't know of anyone else saying those things is the fact you continue to duck and weave whenever I ask you to cite anyone else saying it.

I think you are being obtuse.

You obviously think you are being clever twisting my actual argument into the idiotic sounding  argument "about truth not being a defence against lying".

So before you continue patting yourself on the back with what you clearly believe is such a winning and brilliant meme - made all the more brilliant by repeating it over and over and over, I suggest you go back and read, and importantly, comprehend what I actually said. By all means quote it back to us again. Who knows, you might even realise then that what I actually said is a statement of the bleeding obvious and common sense: that a lie is a lie based on what you believe at the time, and your intention to deceive. And it doesn't magically stop being a lie when facts that you didn't know at the time may or may not come to light after the fact. You intended to deceive FD, I guess the fact you were caught out hurts - and thats why you continue to avoid the actual, bleeding obvious point here - that you didn't, and continually don't to this very moment - do the one thing that would put this all to rest - actually back up your claim. You said a collective of muslims made those claims, yet to this day, you have only managed to cite one of them - and you do nothing but duck and weave and construct clever sounding memes whenever I challenge you on that.

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I think you are avoiding the question. How am I supposed to know whether to use the plural or singular when referring to how many times you have done this?

Have you ever made this argument before about truth not being a defence against lying, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? Obviously I need to know, otherwise you will accuse me of lying if I get wrong the number of times you have done this.

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Are you blaming me for your blue moon monkeys argument Gandalf? You carried on with that for quite some time remember?

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It's funny how a single, simple question can be turned into a meme with a bit of coughing and spluttering.

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You also claimed it is a lie if you have no way of knowing whether it is true. So, tell everyone how you know what my real intentions are...

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So, what you are saying is, just because you happen to be telling the truth, does not mean you are not lying? Have I got it right this time Gandalf? Are you going to tell us the blue moon monkey story again? Is that one from the Quran?

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You left out mindless. If you are going to get hysterical, might as well go all the way.