Australian Politics Forum - Gandalf, you must choose: either....

polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #90 - Mar 9^th, 2018 at 8:19pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:

And given that, truth is a perfectly reasonable defence against accusations of lying. If someone is telling the truth, you assume they are telling the truth. The extraordinary claim that they intended to lie and just happened to tell the truth requires extraordinary evidence. But you would put it the opposite way - that someone telling the turth should be assumed to be lying until they can prove their intentions weren't the opposite of the outcome

Lets be clear here FD - I don't believe your statements are statements of truth. Certainly not for that most obscure arabic/english claim (which not even I made by the way, but anyway). It is you who is mounting this unbelievably absurd argument that says 'I'm not lying because - how do you know it isn't true?' - and then off you go on your usual inane FD babble of demanding that I disprove a negative. Just like your even more absurd defense of your "AFIC school funds go to terrorsts" slur - which consisted entirely of demanding that I prove it wasn't so.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:

I provided evidence to back up my claim.

Sorry I must have missed that FD. If you could kindly show me where you referenced multiple muslims saying what you claimed they said. Cause I can tell you its not in the wiki.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 7:42pm:

I've never seen it argued that two examples must be provided to justify the use of the plural.

- sig worthy.

So do you often go around referring to me as gandalf the "muslims" (plural)?

Or do you genuinely think its ok to take a single quote from a single muslim - and use it to make a general slur against muslims as a collective? Is that why you quit the "criticising Europeans = racist" discussion - because the rank hypocricy became too embarassing for you?

You know what, lets just cut to the chase here FD: lets cut it down to a simple question: do you know for a fact that more than one muslim said those things you attributed to multiple muslims? Yes or no. And if so, how do you know? Where did you see those statements? Can you reference them?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92296 Gender:	Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either.... Reply #91 - Mar 9^th, 2018 at 8:25pm Excuse me, G, how do you know those Muslim/s don't exist?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either.... Reply #92 - Mar 9^th, 2018 at 8:37pm Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 8:25pm: Excuse me, G, how do you know those Muslim/s don't exist? Good point. Debate concluded. Well done.
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freediver

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #93 - Mar 9^th, 2018 at 10:54pm

Quote:

Lets be clear here FD - I don't believe your statements are statements of truth. Certainly not for that most obscure arabic/english claim (which not even I made by the way, but anyway).

OK. So I made a claim that Muslims do something in particular. You respond by claiming that it was a lie even if it is true, and that it is a lie because I use the plural rather than the singular, and insist I should have said 'one Muslim', but now you deny even that is true. All the while demanding I go looking for more quotes. And you wonder why I don't bother looking for you. You can backflip far faster than I can find the evidence you demand.

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and then off you go on your usual inane FD babble of demanding that I disprove a negative

You stated it as a fact. You also said that doing this, without having any way of knowing if it is true, is another lie. Does that mean you are lying?

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? If I accused Muslims of this dirty little trick, would I be incorrect?

When you say you made them all up, are you saying they are all lies? Or that whether you are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether you are lying? Are you in fact accusing me of lying about the popularity of your lies among your fellow Muslims, by misusing an s? Or is it just one of your lies?

How do you know that no other Muslim has ever made the same claim? There are 1.4 billion of them after all, and the whole Arabic thing is a common theme. What is it about this particular claim that makes you so sure you are the only one to ever make it? Is it because you know it is not just a lie, but a particularly absurd lie?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 2:16pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 12:25pm:

You didn't answer the question Gandalf. Why did you bother making the argument that truth is not a defence against accusations of lying?

Because it isn't. How many times do I have to explain this?

This doesn't actually answer the question Gandalf. Whatever your strange views about the truth being a lie, it still does not explain why you would choose to argue that the truth is a lie when you did not believe my statement to be true anyway.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92296 Gender:	Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either.... Reply #94 - Mar 9^th, 2018 at 11:59pm FD, do you uphold the use of truth in your campaign against the Muselman?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #95 - Mar 13^th, 2018 at 1:31pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 10:54pm:

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say?

Kindly desist from this inane question as I have already explained it to you many times. Simply repeating the question over and over won't compensate for the fact that you simply refuse to listen to what I say.

As I have repeated over and over a lie is a lie based on what you know at the time. Fact is, you have never heard any other muslim besides me say the statements in the wiki that you attribute to "muslims" (plural). Yet you stated as fact that multiple muslims said it, despite only coming up with a single reference for all those quotes. The proof in the pudding is that to this day, you are still unable to come up with a single muslim besides me who stated any of these things, despite your protestations that it is "bleeding obvious" and easy to show. That you continue to dodge and weave from this most reasonable request to support your claim, proves without a shred of doubt that you were dishonest in attributing those statements you only heard from me, to a collective of muslims. And we all know why you would be this dishonest - to broad brush muslims, painting them as a mindless collective. Saying "muslims [say something idiotic]" (collectively) obviously sounds far more incriminating than the truth - "I heard one muslim [say something idiotic]".

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 10:54pm:

When you say you made them all up, are you saying they are all lies? Or that whether you are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether you are lying?

Sheesh you are so far off track FD, its no longer amusing. By "made them up" I merely meant I came up with the arguments off my own bat, using my own reasoning - ie I didn't simply parrot the argument of someone else. Thats got nothing to do with whether or not they are lies. The only lies here are your assertions that you claiming to know a collective of muslims make all those arguments. You obviously don't know - ergo you are lying.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #96 - Mar 13^th, 2018 at 7:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 1:31pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 10:54pm:

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say?

Kindly desist from this inane question as I have already explained it to you many times. Simply repeating the question over and over won't compensate for the fact that you simply refuse to listen to what I say.

As I have repeated over and over a lie is a lie based on what you know at the time. Fact is, you have never heard any other muslim besides me say the statements in the wiki that you attribute to "muslims" (plural). Yet you stated as fact that multiple muslims said it, despite only coming up with a single reference for all those quotes. The proof in the pudding is that to this day, you are still unable to come up with a single muslim besides me who stated any of these things, despite your protestations that it is "bleeding obvious" and easy to show. That you continue to dodge and weave from this most reasonable request to support your claim, proves without a shred of doubt that you were dishonest in attributing those statements you only heard from me, to a collective of muslims. And we all know why you would be this dishonest - to broad brush muslims, painting them as a mindless collective. Saying "muslims [say something idiotic]" (collectively) obviously sounds far more incriminating than the truth - "I heard one muslim [say something idiotic]".

That does not answer the question Gandalf. Here it is again for you.

Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say?

Quote:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2018 at 10:54pm:

When you say you made them all up, are you saying they are all lies? Or that whether you are telling the truth is irrelevant to whether you are lying?

Sheesh you are so far off track FD, its no longer amusing. By "made them up" I merely meant I came up with the arguments off my own bat, using my own reasoning - ie I didn't simply parrot the argument of someone else. Thats got nothing to do with whether or not they are lies. The only lies here are your assertions that you claiming to know a collective of muslims make all those arguments. You obviously don't know - ergo you are lying.

Why is it that Muslims are so consistent in inventing these lies?

If you used your own reasoning, where did you get your 'own facts' from to back them up?

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92296 Gender:	Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either.... Reply #97 - Mar 13^th, 2018 at 10:01pm A simple yes or no will suffice, G.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #98 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 3:47pm

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 7:08pm:

That does not answer the question Gandalf.

Yes it does. You are just being obtuse. Try for once to actually read, and preferably comprehend what I said. If anything is unclear, feel free to ask. You might also consider the worth of posting such a stupid question in the first place.

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2018 at 7:08pm:

f you used your own reasoning, where did you get your 'own facts' from to back them up?

From the Quran.

Any other idiotic questions to sustain your continued dodging and weaving from the actual point - ie the question of who else actually said those things in your wiki besides me, and why you won't say even though you insisted it was 'bleeding obvious' and easy to find out?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either.... Reply #99 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 5:03pm A question, if I may. Have you ever made this argument about truth not being a defence against lying before, or is this the first time? And why won't you say?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #100 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 6:26pm

A lie is a lie based on what you believe at the time, not based on what you may or may not discover after the fact. Are you keeping up FD? Let me know if you're still struggling with this basic concept, perhaps I can say it even slower, or draw you a ven diagram. Its fair to say I've been "making that argument" for as long as I've known what a lie is. Which is a long time.

You didn't know that anyone besides me made any of those statements, therefore stating that they did was a lie. The proof that you didn't know and still don't know of anyone else saying those things is the fact you continue to duck and weave whenever I ask you to cite anyone else saying it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either.... Reply #101 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 6:29pm I think you misunderstood the question Gandalf. Have you ever made this argument before about truth not being a defence against lying, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? Obviously I need to know, otherwise you will accuse me of lying if I get wrong the number of times you have done this.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #102 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 6:53pm

I think you are being obtuse.

You obviously think you are being clever twisting my actual argument into the idiotic sounding argument "about truth not being a defence against lying".

So before you continue patting yourself on the back with what you clearly believe is such a winning and brilliant meme - made all the more brilliant by repeating it over and over and over, I suggest you go back and read, and importantly, comprehend what I actually said. By all means quote it back to us again. Who knows, you might even realise then that what I actually said is a statement of the bleeding obvious and common sense: that a lie is a lie based on what you believe at the time, and your intention to deceive. And it doesn't magically stop being a lie when facts that you didn't know at the time may or may not come to light after the fact. You intended to deceive FD, I guess the fact you were caught out hurts - and thats why you continue to avoid the actual, bleeding obvious point here - that you didn't, and continually don't to this very moment - do the one thing that would put this all to rest - actually back up your claim. You said a collective of muslims made those claims, yet to this day, you have only managed to cite one of them - and you do nothing but duck and weave and construct clever sounding memes whenever I challenge you on that.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #103 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 7:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 14^th, 2018 at 6:53pm:

I think you are being obtuse.

You obviously think you are being clever twisting my actual argument into the idiotic sounding argument "about truth not being a defence against lying".

So before you continue patting yourself on the back with what you clearly believe is such a winning and brilliant meme - made all the more brilliant by repeating it over and over and over, I suggest you go back and read, and importantly, comprehend what I actually said. By all means quote it back to us again. Who knows, you might even realise then that what I actually said is a statement of the bleeding obvious and common sense: that a lie is a lie based on what you believe at the time, and your intention to deceive. And it doesn't magically stop being a lie when facts that you didn't know at the time may or may not come to light after the fact. You intended to deceive FD, I guess the fact you were caught out hurts - and thats why you continue to avoid the actual, bleeding obvious point here - that you didn't, and continually don't to this very moment - do the one thing that would put this all to rest - actually back up your claim. You said a collective of muslims made those claims, yet to this day, you have only managed to cite one of them - and you do nothing but duck and weave and construct clever sounding memes whenever I challenge you on that.

Given what YOU KNOW NOW - do Muslims deceive others about the nature of Islam? I ask because what I KNOW NOW, they do.

The Koran, and therefore Islam, is particularly devised by someone whose habit was just such lying, lying as the circumstances demanded. Mohammed's example to Muslims throughout he ages is: sniff the political wind and adjust your sails accordingly. His favouritee under-age wife remarked on his uncanny knack to receive just-in-time revelations to suit his political aims.

Considering that the whole "Koran as the dictated eternal word of Allah " is a laughable lie, a knowing deception, no wonder that all the people who adhere to it have lived in and by lies.

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Re: Gandalf, you must choose: either....
Reply #104 - Mar 14^th, 2018 at 8:43pm

Quote:

I think you are being obtuse.

I think you are avoiding the question. How am I supposed to know whether to use the plural or singular when referring to how many times you have done this?

Have you ever made this argument before about truth not being a defence against lying, or is this the first time? And why won't you say? Obviously I need to know, otherwise you will accuse me of lying if I get wrong the number of times you have done this.

Quote:

You obviously think you are being clever twisting my actual argument into the idiotic sounding argument "about truth not being a defence against lying".

Are you blaming me for your blue moon monkeys argument Gandalf? You carried on with that for quite some time remember?

Quote:

So before you continue patting yourself on the back with what you clearly believe is such a winning and brilliant meme

It's funny how a single, simple question can be turned into a meme with a bit of coughing and spluttering.

Quote:

I suggest you go back and read, and importantly, comprehend what I actually said. By all means quote it back to us again. Who knows, you might even realise then that what I actually said is a statement of the bleeding obvious and common sense: that a lie is a lie based on what you believe at the time, and your intention to deceive.

You also claimed it is a lie if you have no way of knowing whether it is true. So, tell everyone how you know what my real intentions are...

Quote:

And it doesn't magically stop being a lie when facts that you didn't know at the time may or may not come to light after the fact.

So, what you are saying is, just because you happen to be telling the truth, does not mean you are not lying? Have I got it right this time Gandalf? Are you going to tell us the blue moon monkey story again? Is that one from the Quran?

Quote:

You said a collective of muslims

You left out mindless. If you are going to get hysterical, might as well go all the way.

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