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Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po (Read 4152 times)
Yadda
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Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Jan 24th, 2018 at 9:58pm
 

Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.



IMAGE....
...

C.S. Lewis



Quote:

Quotable Quote

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/437424-god-created-things-which-had-free-will-t...



Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


A life where we are free to make choices, is always going to be a difficult life.

We will be 'destined', to experience many challenges and disappointments in such a life, imo.



Yadda said....
Quote:

God, is purity of purpose.

What is God's purpose ?




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Frank
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #1 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 6:53pm
 
There is a pretty confused discussion about free will and determinism under thee 'Indonesia' thread, of all places. Can we perhaps shift to this thread (hope you don't mind, Yadda, CS Lewis is obviously not as widely read and challenging nowadays as one would have hoped).

Determinism looks at us as mere biological, physical entities. Only such things, bereft of the ability to say 'I' can be subject of another I who has all the personal qualities to make objects mere subjects to his personal acts of determining them by his own will.

But we are also, each one of us, an 'I', a person who can promise, regret, love and will.

If we had no 'I' to speak of, out of, we may be subject to determinations, just as most other conscious beings are. What set's us apart and sets us free is our ability to comprehend that each and every one of us is an 'I'. We relate to each other eye to eye and I to I.
Neuroscience or biochemistry is completely silent because they are on a different plane, about any discussion about personhood, intentions, freedom.
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Yadda
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #2 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:03am
 


Its all pretty deep.

....all of this 'philosophising'!


e.g.
determinism = = the doctrine that all events and actions are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will.



As men, imo, we are fated to be influenced [in all of our motives], by our interactions, with what we encounter in the world.
???

QUESTION;
Do we [individually] have any influence, can we have any influence,      in those things we are 'fated' to encounter here, in this life ?



.



Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Psalms 7:9
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.


Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
6  For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7  Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8  For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10  I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.




Father, i ask for redemption, from this mire, in which i am 'entangled'.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Tim Neanderthal
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #3 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:40am
 
Life story is repeated.
That may be caused by the human society that are combined    with relationships of people. 
Relationships of people are formed by few forms such as hate, love,,,,,
No change in thousands years so we repeat our ancestor life.

We think the relationship society of human, is more close to the universal rule than their story.
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Tim Neanderthal
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #4 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:00pm
 
Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.

__________________

If we realize there is a universal rule.
'"Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong" "It is not very  difficult.
Because going wrong has been eliminated/killed by universal rule.
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PZ547
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #5 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 1:12pm
 
Imagine creatures hitting the planet with a completely clean slate

no genes inherited from earlier generations

that would grab my interest
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All my comments, posts & opinions are to be regarded as satire & humour
 
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Frank
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #6 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 1:14pm
 
Adam and Eve
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issuevoter
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #7 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 5:41pm
 
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.

__________________

If we realize there is a universal rule.
'"Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong" "It is not very  difficult.
Because going wrong has been eliminated/killed by universal rule.


Why bother? It isn't going to happen. You wasting your time dreaming. You'd be better off doing something, especially something creative.
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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
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Frank
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #8 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 6:19pm
 
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.

__________________

If we realize there is a universal rule.
'"Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong" "It is not very  difficult.
Because going wrong has been eliminated/killed by universal rule.



Free will is about being free to be wrong, that is, having a moral dimension. Animals have no free will because they have no moral dimension, they cannot 'go wrong'. The two things - morals and free will - are inseparable. A lion cannot choose to be a vegetarian for ethical considerations.


Free will is also and always about purposeful, intentional action which is something only humans are capable of because of their moral dimension.The moral dimension comes from recognising oneself as an 'I' and recognising that other human being are also have the capacity to recognise themselves as an 'I'. The I and Thou is about this seeing eye to eye and I to I. That relationship is takes place in the moral dimension and therefore operates on the foundations of free will.  You wpuld not accept someone's promise unless you thought they are free to fulfil it. And you wouldn't have laws about breach of contract if promises could never be broken (an exercise of free will and hence possible culpability - personal agency, intentionality, etc.







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« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2018 at 6:26pm by Frank »  

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Jasin
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #9 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 6:58pm
 
C.S.Lewis had the 'free will' to play with little boys willies too, btw.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Tim Neanderthal
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #10 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:36pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.

__________________

If we realize there is a universal rule.
'"Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong" "It is not very  difficult.
Because going wrong has been eliminated/killed by universal rule.


Why bother? It isn't going to happen. You wasting your time dreaming. You'd be better off doing something, especially something creative.


Creative  Wink
Well, human doing is effected by universal rule.
Right is keep going.
Wrong is destroyed.
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Tim Neanderthal
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #11 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:51pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 6:19pm:
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.

__________________

If we realize there is a universal rule.
'"Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong" "It is not very  difficult.
Because going wrong has been eliminated/killed by universal rule.



Free will is about being free to be wrong, that is, having a moral dimension. Animals have no free will because they have no moral dimension, they cannot 'go wrong'. The two things - morals and free will - are inseparable. A lion cannot choose to be a vegetarian for ethical considerations.


Free will is also and always about purposeful, intentional action which is something only humans are capable of because of their moral dimension.The moral dimension comes from recognising oneself as an 'I' and recognising that other human being are also have the capacity to recognise themselves as an 'I'. The I and Thou is about this seeing eye to eye and I to I. That relationship is takes place in the moral dimension and therefore operates on the foundations of free will.  You wpuld not accept someone's promise unless you thought they are free to fulfil it. And you wouldn't have laws about breach of contract if promises could never be broken (an exercise of free will and hence possible culpability - personal agency, intentionality, etc.









Free will is about being free to be wrong,
agree that.
But right or wrong is not depends whosoever have moral.
Right or wrong tell us if those doing is following the universal rule?
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Tim Neanderthal
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #12 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:03pm
 
Free will did a lot wrong which is disappear.
So with times pass, we see left things "no possibility of going wrong" Smiley
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Frank
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #13 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:08pm
 
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 6:19pm:
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong"

It is difficult.

A conundrum.

__________________

If we realize there is a universal rule.
'"Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no possibility of going wrong" "It is not very  difficult.
Because going wrong has been eliminated/killed by universal rule.



Free will is about being free to be wrong, that is, having a moral dimension. Animals have no free will because they have no moral dimension, they cannot 'go wrong'. The two things - morals and free will - are inseparable. A lion cannot choose to be a vegetarian for ethical considerations.


Free will is also and always about purposeful, intentional action which is something only humans are capable of because of their moral dimension.The moral dimension comes from recognising oneself as an 'I' and recognising that other human being are also have the capacity to recognise themselves as an 'I'. The I and Thou is about this seeing eye to eye and I to I. That relationship is takes place in the moral dimension and therefore operates on the foundations of free will.  You wpuld not accept someone's promise unless you thought they are free to fulfil it. And you wouldn't have laws about breach of contract if promises could never be broken (an exercise of free will and hence possible culpability - personal agency, intentionality, etc.









Free will is about being free to be wrong,
agree that.
But right or wrong is not depends whosoever have moral.
Right or wrong tell us if those doing is following the universal rule?

If right and wrong are not about morality - what ARE  they about?  Right and wrong ARE moral categories, nothing else. They are value categories  (ie moral), not scientific ones (ie value free).



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Yadda
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Re: Imagine a creation with free will, but with "no po
Reply #14 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:43pm
 
Tim Neanderthal wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:51pm:

Free will is about being free to be wrong,
agree that.

But right or wrong is not depends whosoever have moral.



Doesn't it ?     Shocked     Shocked       Really ?




Frank wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:08pm:

If right and wrong are not about morality - what ARE  they about?

Right and wrong ARE moral categories, nothing else.

They are value categories  (ie moral), not scientific ones (ie value free).





'The creation' [i.e. mankind] will always 'go wrong', having free will.

We are 'fated' to 'go wrong', aren't we ?

Because our history shows, it is obvious, that all men [and women] don't really care about 'going wrong', or about choosing 'right' over 'wrong',
if their choice seems advantageous to themselves, at that time ?

The human condition.     ?


Q.
How do we [mankind] ensure [and can we ensure] that we [mankind] have a strong enough internal imperative, to almost always, choose the 'good' for ourselves, and for others affected by our choices ?


From the OP....
Quote:

It is difficult.

A conundrum.





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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